The Gaming Den

What's a Blue Mage?

MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1085754546[/unixtime]]What's a Blue Mage?

Its a character class out of final fantasy that learns monster abilities and casts them like spells. So in D&D basically instead of casting a disintegrate spell, you'd be mimicing a beholder's eye ray, or instead of using fireball, you'd be using the breath weapon of a red dragon.

MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1085754546[/unixtime]]What's a Blue Mage?

It's a class from Final Fantasy and Final Fantasy Tactics.

You gain access to the spells and abilties of monsters after they have used them on you. This means that whatever monsters the game (DM) happens to throw at you will determine what abilties you have and also your power level.

Does this sound at all familiar based on the above attempt at a polymorph write up?

Can you see immediately why this method of abilty aquisition cannot be balanced in a table-top game?

-Username17

Blue Mages get all the power at no cost except for the Pokemon: Gotta collect them all!" cost. I am attempting to create a system that has some power for a cost.

If you turn into an Dragon, you should be able to blow fire. You shouldn't still use your sword just because you happen to be a 37th level Master of Swords who gets a +93 damage to sword damage, but no other weapon.

You're a dragon. Bite and claw things, fly, and maybe even cast Dragon magic, but don't use a stupid sword.

Turn into a mouse, and you should get crushed. That's the cost.

Right now, a Barbarian snail moves at 10ft a round and can have a hundred HP. A snail! Not a magical beast familiar but a stupid snail. With a run action and those HP, I might now be able to kill that snail before it escapes!

My system is not Stat replacement. Its character replacement. Sure, there is an option where some guy who traveled the length and breath of the world and universe could collect all the monsters with cool abilities, and have a room where he ran into it, pick up just the right Focus, and get any ability he needed ta that moment.

Sounds no more difficult than finding an Artifact, or collecting Wishes from Genies, or just adventuring, gaining XP, and just doing yur thing.

A mage from a cold climate will turn into a Remorahaz or a Polar bear, because his adventures were all there. Sunds cool.

The plane-tripping mage will have wierd outsiders, Far Things, biologally improbable monstrosities, etc.

And PC mages will have stuff that was in their adventure. Most of the stuff will be too powerful to change into. By the time you can change into it, its not usually not an issue any more. DMs will have to look at monsters not only for the playablity and story coolness factor, but also for the "magic item" value, just like they have to now. Charm Monster is like instant monstery treasure, but no one ever complains, even though you can beat most adventures just by Charming the first three battles worth of dudes and then sending them after the BBEG boss monster.

I am attempting to create a system that has some power for a cost.

That's great, but the only meaningful cost is the fact that you had to have beaten a Lantern Archon.

Which means the DM has to have let you fight a Lantern Archon.

Which means the ability has no personal schtick at all, because the powers you get have nothing whatsoever to do with what you want, only with what the DM happens to le you have.

It's like playing a class which gets more items with the cost of not actually allowing you to make any of your items or decide what they are. It requires DM cooperation and is ultimately no fun to play.

And not balanced even with itself, let alone other classes.

-Username17

The whole game is played in cooperation with the DM. If that's your problem, go play 40K.

And yes, your adventures will reflect the monsters you can become. So? This is just Polymorph, a useful low level catchall shapeshifting spell.

If you want the version of Polymorph that includes a whole personalized range of effects, then take a PrC, be a druid, or some other damn thing.

But itf you are so so fixated on my version of Alter Self, it can be lowered to CR 1 templates or races, which nixes the Lantern Archon. You're going to have to come up with some more fringe cases.

"The whole game is played in cooperation with the DM. If that's your problem, go play 40K."

Do I smell the Oberoni Fallacy sneaking up on K here? No amount of pleading that DM action can solve a problem changes the fact that a bad mechanic is a bad mechanic.

Saying "that sucks" is not useful feedback, or even a valid way to prove an argument.

Blanket statements are not useful feeback, or valid ways to prove an argument.

Examples are useful. Counter arguments are useful. Suggestions are useful. Even anecdotal evidence can be useful, though not a valid way to prove an argument.

Otherwise, you are wasting precious seconds of my life. I don't mind criticism, but I do mind blind apathy("It'll never work, even though we've never tested it or given it serious consideration.")

How do you know I didn't give it consideration? I did. The idea of 4th level spell with so much versatility and power is ludicrous. I took great steps to ban broken spell when I was DM, and few versions of polymorph I have seen are even close to balanced.

Mod Edit: Rapa, that was not at all necessary.

[/The Great Fence Builder]

Let's face it; Using monsters as a base for polymorph just doesn't work.

Now, are we going to make up something else to use instead or just collectively ban the spell?

I think most sane DMs either ban it, or put a real stealth nerf leash on the sucker.

The former is intellectually more honest I suppose. As for a replacement... there are a few max buff bonus systems around that don't look too shabby.

BTW fbmf: In my eyes it was necessary. You're in charge here though. :salutes: