The Gaming Den

Why is everyone trying to gimp its casting? Just leave it be. Full cleric casting. Trading away turning for paladin abilities is already giving away more than you're getting, why is everyone trying to give away more?

Paladins deserve Turning more than clerics.

You are forgetting the mount, lay on hands, smite evil and remove disease, Aura of Grace and Aura of Courage. So really just the mount.

Casting like the Jester isn't terrible, it's like full cleric casting with a caster level hit and a few less spells per level. You want to keep Turning, the Mount, and Smite, but give up almost everything else and give spellcasting. You can't give full-BAB, full cleric casting, heavy armor and all martial weapons because that is better than a cleric.

Hell, everyone should have full casting.
But then access to high level spells would depend on many, many levels of a class.
Archetype would then be determined by use of maneuvers, spells, or supernatural-like skill tricks.

SunTzuWarmaster at [unixtime wrote:1199730694[/unixtime]]You can't give full-BAB, full cleric casting, heavy armor and all martial weapons because that is better than a cleric.

Actually, that is a cleric.

You can give it without using divine power et al. by restricting the spell list, and throw in other goodies too. That's still balanced (although there are ways to break it). True resurrection at 18th level...oh shi-

SunTzuWarmaster wrote:You can't give full-BAB, full cleric casting, heavy armor and all martial weapons because that is better than a cleric.

Uh, that -is- the cleric, save for martial weapons (and who cares about them?).

SunTzuWarmaster wrote:You are forgetting the mount, lay on hands, smite evil and remove disease, Aura of Grace and Aura of Courage. So really just the mount.

And you're forgetting Persistent Spell, apparently.

I am not forgetting Persistent Spell, I am assuming it to have some type of in-game investment in the form of a Rod (expensive!), Staff (ditto), or feat. Persistent Spell is not a built-in class feature or all clerics, so not all clerics have full BAB.

More likely is the case where the cleric burns the 1st round of combat in order to cast Divine Power (especially when they first get it), which is a valuable action that the casting paladin does not have to burn.

What are you talking about? It sure is a built-in class feature. Every last cleric takes Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell. This is not optional. Whether or not it costs a couple feats is a nonissue anyway because you can just persist that spell that grants you a feat.

Surgo at [unixtime wrote:1199862830[/unixtime]]What are you talking about? It sure is a built-in class feature. Every last cleric takes Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell. This is not optional. Whether or not it costs a couple feats is a nonissue anyway because you can just persist that spell that grants you a feat.

If your DM banned it, you can't. But that's a Fallacy most here know.
Regardless, after seeing what this cheese does, any DM that doesn't ban Divine Metamagic is a moron.

Either all spells last all day, or only the crappy ones. Not "just Cleric spells, 'cuz they took a feat".

You realize the cleric's not even the worst abuser, right? Incantatrix bullshit is worse than Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell ever will be.

I refuse to recognize the sovereignty of the Incantatrix, let alone much of the other Faerunian PrCs, feats, monsters, spells, or face-wanking deities.