Bad Juju (Ebon Grove) Design Flowsheet

[zeruslord]

I would like to make sorcerous pact and maybe miracle equivalents, but I would think that spirits would refuse to deal with sorcerers, and as such, the only available wizardry would be spells and charms made by another.

[Orion]

I'm not understanding you. Spells aren't created or approved by spirits, they work for anyone. Here are a few sample spells:

Second Sight: Allows the user to see incorporeal spirits and the auras of charms

Call for Aid: when in a spirit's domain, allows the user to summon it to him by use of its name.

Word of Abjuration: Deals moderate damage to spirits in corporeal form.

Energy Capacitor: Enchants an appropriate object to store [Energy] effects.

Energy Trigger: activates an [Energy] charm.

A sorcerer would have little use for the last two, but might use the others normally

Miracles, on the other hand, make no sense for Sorcerers at all. A Miracle is an effect spontaneously generated by a spirit on human behalf. They look like this:

Yuki's Road: A Water or Ice god freezes a river, allowing you and your allies to cross.

Storm of Fury: A greater air spirit conjures a thunderstorm which rains small droplets of fire. All but the most disciplined military units are routed, bolts can be directed against individual enemies, and travel slows. Going out in dry terrain at all is highly inadvisable.

Fortress of Kings: A spirit of earth raises earthen walls around a central, ceramic keep, creating an outpost fit for a 50-man garrison.

Nature's Bounty: A stand of fruit-trees grows a harvest on command, feeding a dozen people for days.

Sorcerers don't bargain with spirits, so they're inherently not going to be doing Miracles. On the other hand, most sorcerous abilities are spontaneous anyway.

[norms29]

wait... if the only reason spells don't effect the physical worled directly is that the spirit world keeps a hold on things, and sorcery is magic that gives the user direct control of things which, for various reasons, aren't controlled, then how is sorcery differatn from spells, and why do the spirits object more to humon manipulating flesh, bone, and obsidean, then they do to humans casting word of abjuration

[Orion]

1: I haven't worked out yet whether Sorcery is defined as a set of spells or as its own thing. It definitely *is* a unique skill set -- the more you invest in sorcery, the more useful it is, unlike spells which pretty much just work.

2: I never said that spirits dislike sorcerers. In the prehistory of the setting, sorcerers and wizards got along. Sorcerers even have been known to dabble in wizardry. But to the extent that they're restricted, it's more that spirits recognize the sorcerer as a follower of another path.

3: Word of Abjuration was thrown in just recently, I'm not sure I want to keep it. I definitely want some kind of exorcism abilities under "spells," like driving off incorporeal spirits, but in retrospect I think I want destroying corporeal spirits to be a job for warriors.

[norms29]

oh, sorry, reading back I see YOU never said anything to that effect (affect?). I was just assuming that Ice9 and Grek weren't too off base when THEY said it, be cause no one else seemed to question it untill now.

P.S. I think from a setting consistancy standpoint, treating sorcery as a set of spells might be better, but I suppose that depends on how other magic works. One pertinent question might be does sorcery manipulate (flesh/bone/iron) the same way spells manipulate [energy], or is the sorcerer doing something more like what the spirits do when miracle is... um... cast or called or whatever.

[Orion]

Well, I never disconfirmed it because I'm not opposed to having spirits dislike sorcerers as part of some kind of balancing measure, but I'm not attached to the idea.

EDIT: Cosmology Added

The Beginning:

In the beginning the earth lay cold and still. Iron slumbered and mountains rose, but there was no life. Then the Founts opened, pouring elemental energy into the world. From this chaotic soup arose the First God. It is said that his thoughts and cogitations are recorded in the stars, and in the land, and in the hidden minds of beasts. Little is known about this being save that one day, it took its own life. As it did so, it shattered into a thousand pieces, who became the Kami. Life was born.

The Spirits

When a human is born, his soul is drawn from the Fount of souls. When he dies, his soul is transformed into some kind of spirit. There exist three kinds of spirits:

Kami: Kami are local gods. They control an element, and can move freely. They have a corporeal and an incorporeal form. Their incorporeal form is all but indestructible. They can perform miracles while within their domain, and can energize charms. The most powerful among them can offer pacts. A kami's personality is not determined by the soul it was formed from.

Ghosts: a human with knowledge of certain sorcerous spells can elect to become a ghost. Ghost are incorporeal beings with no magical abilities of any kind. They can, however, talk to people, and are virtually indestructible.

Fairest: The Fairest, also known as the Gods, are great man-made spirits formed from the chaotic energies of the Elemental Founts. Each one is incredibly powerful, but subject to stringent restrictions. Ancient oaths require them to remain where they are bound. Although their control over their element extends across the continent, their perceptions do not unless extended through willing intermediaries. Their oaths also prevent them from personally attacking anyone who knows certain basic spells, although their bouncers and bodyguards are quite capable of doing so. Above all, they hunger for souls which they can transform into spiritual servitors or simply add to their own essences. They are intelligent but not rational and will frequently do contradictory things, like flirting with a character while simultaneously sending their minions to kill her.

[Orion]

The Wizard in his Tower

One important ramification of this magical set-up is that the setting hihgly favors defense. D&D is a game about breaking into people's homes and murdering them -- it therefore is set up to virtually negate the home turf advantage. We're interested in hard bargains, incremental change, and justifying the old trope of the wizard's tower.

SO: Every magic-user is going to acquire friends in the spirit world. Those with high diplomacy skills like the Shaman and the Ambassador, are more or less equally comfortable everywhere. This is not necessarily the case for all. Those burdened by pacts may not get along with all kinds of spirits; those with more magical talent than social grace will want to cultivate a small number of relationships rather than rely on new contacts wherever they go.

This has two ramifications: first, characters, especially those represented by the "Wizard" archetype, tend to be tied to a "base" somewhat more than a D&D character is. A Wizard manufactures charms like a D&D caster preparing spells, save that instead of recharging every day, he must return to a sanctuary where the local gods are on his side before spending a week or two refiling his stocks.

Second, there is a significant home-turf advantage in mage on mage violence. A Wizard in his tower need only summon the local spirits to have a variety of miracles at his disposal, while the intruder likely relies on charms.Note that spirits have a hard time telling humans apart, and therefore many have made deals to defend the owner of a tower rather than a particular person or family. Taking over an enemy base is therefore quite a coup.

The end result is a kind of cold war situation where powerful, antagonistic wizards might be separated by scant miles but feel unwilling to challenge one another directly. Hilarity ensues.

[Orion]

The Spirits

Goblin
Rank: Lesser
Type: Wood/Earth

Goblins are the "keepers of the earth" who govern the soil from which trees spring. They appear in woodlands, scrublands, and forested foothill. Their duties are to tend the soil and ensure that enough. They love to waylay passing travelers, generally meaning no harm but merely to entertain. They are great lovers of gossip and song. They are highly sensitive to fluctuations in the soil and the seasons. During certain times of the fall, and when human activity disturbs the woodlands, the "earth becomes angry" and the goblins begin to attack and kill passing humans.

Attacks: Slam, Captivating Song
Charms: Minor Plant, Lesser Earth
Miracles:

Their corporeal forms look either like an unearthly beautiful young man with leaves for hair and bark for skin, or like hobbit-sized apelike creatures. The first form uses seductively captivating song; the second attacks with supernatural strength. Their bodies actually contain no internal organs, but are made of soil, and when slain or dismembered they crumble into dirt.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

So basically, if you have a "wizard archetype" player in the game, you can't do the standard D&D thing of having little to no downtime between adventures. If powerful users of wizardry are in the party, then there are weeks of downtime if that character runs out of spells.

And I think I agree with you that sorcerers should be NPCs, at least at first. Since they don't have to negotiate with spirits, they play havoc with the default balance you've created for PCs. Also, they can easily be put off if you're assuming that the early campaigns will be focused on characters from Ebon Grove.

[Orion]

of the listed six, the soldier is also rather downtime dependant, while the oathsworn and ambassador don't need downtime. Shaman and woodsman are in the middle.

[Orion]

So basically, if you have a "wizard archetype" player in the game, you can't do the standard D&D thing of having little to no downtime between adventures. If powerful users of wizardry are in the party, then there are weeks of downtime if that character runs out of spells.

1: The downtime is by design -- it slows things down so that players can interact with politics on a reasonable timescale.

2: Bear in mind that the wizards shouldn't be expecting to run out of spells. The idea is to get players to try to hoard magic. That way, players feel challenged without ever being really threatened with TPK, because they can always take out the lightning gun.

And I think I agree with you that sorcerers should be NPCs, at least at first. Since they don't have to negotiate with spirits, they play havoc with the default balance you've created for PCs. Also, they can easily be put off if you're assuming that the early campaigns will be focused on characters from Ebon Grove.

Yeah, that's the way I'm leaning.

[Bigode]

That way, players feel challenged without ever being really threatened with TPK, because they can always take out the lightning gun.

In any battle you could turn (from being already losing) with a lightning gun, couldn't the enemy pull its own to wipe you out? Worse, an enemy defending might be logically justified in pulling all guns at once.

[Orion]

Well, most fights are either going to be against spirits, who just do their thing at a set power level, or against groups of soldiers/bandits. Actually fighting other wizards should be a rare and dangerous occurrence.

When you do have to fight other wizards, you probably want to cast Four Winds Challenge and trigger the mageduel rules. Basically, according to ancient oaths all the spirits vow to honor an intra-wizard struggle, so the local spirits all lend their support to both sides. This lets wizards fight one another using effects they haven't prepared in advance. Ideally, the spell list would have potent defenses and counterspells that keep down the lethality of such duels to reasonable levels.

Sample Fairest
Ysbel, The Maiden of Crows
Ysbel, also known as the Maiden of Crows or the Queen of Ice, lives at the summit of Traitor's peak, a mountain in the southwest of the continent. Traitor's peak is a small mountain in a temperate climate; by any reasonable standard it should be bare of snow, but it remains whitecapped nevertheless. It is avoid by all but the foolish and desperate.

Oaths: Ysbel is constrained by the standard battery of oaths, which prevent her from leaving the mountain or harming anyone who knows the Ambassador of the Grove spell. In return, Ysbel claims the right to the soul of anyone whose blood is shed anywhere on her mountain.

Minions: Ysbel's most famed and feared minions are the Snow Queen's Crows, living birds of slush that magically track anyone who sheds even a drop of blood on her slopes, circling like vultures and dripping ice on their heads. She also has a number of Ice Tigers and other guardian spirits to deter visitors. In times of old she also commanded icedrakes, but her last was recently killed, and she has not yet acquired a wizard's soul, with which to fashion a new one

Pacts: Ysbel offers the following pacts --

Other: The most common reason to brave her mountain is in search of a legendary healing spring which can cure almost any affliction.

[Orion]

Just added a sample Fairest

EDIT: Also, advice on how to work out the basic tats/skills to work with?

[norms29]

Not that I need much motive to ask worldBuilding questions, but if all magic other then sorcery is based on dealing with spirits, I have a few questions on the subject of oaths; since I assume that these Oaths are of some form of "spirits never break them" variety, will it be that they can't break the oath even by accident? or just that breaking the oath has some major consequence, such as instant destruction? is it possible to trick a spirit into contradictory oaths? if so, what would be the consequences of this? if not, Why not?

[Bigode]

Well, most fights are either going to be against spirits, who just do their thing at a set power level, or against groups of soldiers/bandits. Actually fighting other wizards should be a rare and dangerous occurrence.

When you do have to fight other wizards, you probably want to cast Four Winds Challenge and trigger the mageduel rules. Basically, according to ancient oaths all the spirits vow to honor an intra-wizard struggle, so the local spirits all lend their support to both sides. This lets wizards fight one another using effects they haven't prepared in advance. Ideally, the spell list would have potent defenses and counterspells that keep down the lethality of such duels to reasonable levels.

That looks like a big heap of "making some PC archetypes specifically more important than others", both in "trash mobs are warriors, never magicians" and "magicians get their own fluffy combat mode with rules lovingly crafted for them".

[violence in the media]

[quote="Bigode]That looks like a big heap of "making some PC archetypes specifically more important than others", both in "trash mobs are warriors, never magicians" and "magicians get their own fluffy combat mode with rules lovingly crafted for them".[/quote]

You bring up a good point. Who should the trash mobs be? What makes any class special or important that isn't damaged by it being common?

[Bigode]

You bring up a good point. Who should the trash mobs be? What makes any class special or important that isn't damaged by it being common?

I'd make the trash be lower-leveled PC-likes. There's also the old alternative of "they almost only fight monsters, which aren't at all like PCs".

[IGTN]

Soldiers need to be differentiated from trashmobs, and allowed to participate in mage duels.

--
You have a minimum of two combat minigames, it looks like; one for brawls (bandit attacks and fighting spirits), and one for mageduels. This is ignoring "social combat" (also essential, if you're an Embassy), and pitched battles (which you might not include).

If a minigame is going to be eating up a significant chunk of the game's time, overall or in climactic scenes, then everyone has to be able to participate, and can't sell their ability to participate effectively for powerups elsewhere.

Essentially, this means that everything you'd dump a significant number of points into must have an application in mage dueling (which looks like it's going to eat up a good chunk of the climax time) and in brawling (which is going to be in most other places).

To distinguish a Soldier from a bandit, then, perhaps the Soldier can exorcize spirits and can use his combat ability to interfere with miracles being worked on behalf of the enemy in a mage duel? If a Soldier can cast Four Winds Challenge, and hold his own in a mage duel, then fighting an NPC Soldier (instead of merely a bandit gang) becomes significant.

[Orion]

That looks like a big heap of "making some PC archetypes specifically more important than others", both in "trash mobs are warriors, never magicians" and "magicians get their own fluffy combat mode with rules lovingly crafted for them".

EVERY PC is "a magician." The Soldier is supposed to end up riding either a bound spirit or a horse with flying horseshoes, dual-wielding lightning rods or using a lance made of lava.

"trash mobs" are never magicians, because access to magic is what distinguishes important character from trash.

Formal wizard duels, may give an advantage to certain archetypes who are specialized in them, like the wizard archetype. But every PC is expected to be able to participate. The soldier may not be able to command the spirits, but he should have some kind of enchanted sword that lets him stab spirits in the face, and deflect hostile magic. The Duel facilitates the use of magic, it doesn't outlaw more "mundane" techniques.

[Orion]

This post from IGTN came in while I was writing, and says what I wanted to say better than I did.

Soldiers need to be differentiated from trashmobs, and allowed to participate in mage duels.

yes

You have a minimum of two combat minigames, it looks like; one for brawls (bandit attacks and fighting spirits), and one for mageduels. This is ignoring "social combat" (also essential, if you're an Embassy), and pitched battles (which you might not include).

Mage duels are intended to be a pretty rare thing -- there definitely isn't one as the climax of every session. Enemy wizards are supposed to be reclusive and cowardly. They don't happen when fighting sorcerers, spirits sent by an enemy wizard, or independent spirits.

To distinguish a Soldier from a bandit, then, perhaps the Soldier can exorcize spirits and can use his combat ability to interfere with miracles being worked on behalf of the enemy in a mage duel? If a Soldier can cast Four Winds Challenge, and hold his own in a mage duel, then fighting an NPC Soldier (instead of merely a bandit gang) becomes significant.

Yeah, a Soldier could easily learn it or have it cast on his behalf. Yes, a soldier should have spells or an enchanted sword which allow him to stab spirits in the face, and he should be able to negate an enemy wizard's attacks by murdering the spirits the wizard was drawing on.

[Bigode]

To make clear where I came from:

Well, most fights are either going to be against spirits, who just do their thing at a set power level, or against groups of soldiers/bandits. Actually fighting other wizards should be a rare and dangerous occurrence.

(Emphasis mine.)

Mage duels are intended to be a pretty rare thing -- there definitely isn't one as the climax of every session. Enemy wizards are supposed to be reclusive and cowardly. They don't happen when fighting sorcerers, spirits sent by an enemy wizard, or independent spirits.

Does that include all 6 types, then?

[Orion]

To make clear where I came from:

Well, most fights are either going to be against spirits, who just do their thing at a set power level, or against groups of soldiers/bandits. Actually fighting other wizards should be a rare and dangerous occurrence.

(Emphasis mine.)

Mage duels are intended to be a pretty rare thing -- there definitely isn't one as the climax of every session. Enemy wizards are supposed to be reclusive and cowardly. They don't happen when fighting sorcerers, spirits sent by an enemy wizard, or independent spirits.

Does that include all 6 types, then?

Okay, my bad. I really, really need to get my terminology under control.

In the above quotes I was using "soldier" to mean, member of a military force, not "expert in the use of magical hardware." Similarly, I used "wizard" to mean, "practitioner of wizardry" -- which all 6 PC archetypes are, rather than "specialist in charm creation."

[IGTN]

When the only difference between two words that you're likely to use the same situation is only capitalization (such as using Soldier and Wizard for PC archetypes, but soldier = military and wizard = all PC-level characters), it's time to pick new words.

[Orion]

Worse, Wizard has a third definition, meaning "one from the ebon grove"

I guess next post will be a lexicon, with the inconsistencies worked out. Advice on how to resolve this is welcome.

(Note that this problem won't obtain in the finished product, because the archetypes are likely not going to be mechanical constructs)