A modest in-combat resource management scheme.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I'm gonna side with Frank on this one.

Having random access to the Mega Big Bang Attack actually feels less, I don't know, static than always having the same choices available to you. Which is why I find the Crusader more entertaining to play than the Warblade, despite the latter's superiority. It's why when I play a Shadowcraft Mage I seriously roll to see what book I can choose a spell from each round. 'Cause otherwise it's going to be a maximized whirlwind of teeth every time.

I don't. I think it's stupid.

Oh sure, it works out fine for generic attacks like Super Slash and Ultra Slash, where the special effects are so similar that you can't tell the difference.

But it breaks the simulation when you have very different attacks in rotation. For example, say Crusader let you use that dumbass Desert Fucker style. So I can wave my sword and make a wall of fire or a giant snake of flame, but I can't shoot a piddly fireball at the enemy. What the fuck? I mean, it's one thing to say that you haven't ever trained your ki to be able to fling the fireball so you can't ever do that, but we saw you fling the fireball last round. So why can't you throw a damn fireball at the flying ice dragon this round but you CAN make a giant conflaguration on the ground.

[NineInchNall]

Yeah, it's a mechanical reason that you can justify with whatever flavor you want, but the important thing is the variation that it creates. I srsly don't even care.

'Cause you know what? The rules of the game define the gameworld's physics and logic, and thus they become the in character justification for whatever.

It's just like a 6th level Sorcerer's blowing through his fireballs first and not having any 3rd level slots left. Why can he totally blast away with abandon using 1st and 2nd level spells but not let loose with another fireball? Because that's what the rules say.*

No more justification is needed.



*Well, unless he has Versatile Spellcaster.

[Username17]

So you think it breaks the simulation for Luke to have to fly until he can get a good shot off at the Death Star's core? You think the player should be like "I shoot the core!" "I shoot it again!" until he rolls a nat 20? Why?

The variation in character moves is what is important to achieve. The player needs to have a choice in what they can do each turn or the game loses its interest and its challenge, but the player also has to be choosing different stuff each turn or the game... loses its interest and its challenge.

Triptastic fighters are boring as shit. They trip a dude. And then they do it again. And again. And if you just let people choose any of their moves every round, it's going to end up like that. Not just because people will have invested so much in trip bonuses (or whatever), but because people are inherently uncreative when they are not confronted with new challenges. If you don't force them to mix up their tactics, they won't.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

So you think it breaks the simulation for Luke to have to fly until he can get a good shot off at the Death Star's core? You think the player should be like "I shoot the core!" "I shoot it again!" until he rolls a nat 20? Why?

No, but it does break the simulation that he can't even try, like there's some invisible force in the universe preventing him from pressing the missile button.

If the only reason why people choose certain tactics is because only the Magic Missile function on their staff works this round, then that's frustrating as hell. Sure, that works if you're a Yugioh protagonist, but if you're an Earthbender or Mr. Fantastic or some shit then that's not acceptable.

Triptastic fighters are boring as shit. They trip a dude. And then they do it again. And again. And if you just let people choose any of their moves every round, it's going to end up like that. Not just because people will have invested so much in trip bonuses (or whatever), but because people are inherently uncreative when they are not confronted with new challenges. If you don't force them to mix up their tactics, they won't.

If you make the bonuses for picking random moves generically better than using the same one over and over again, I'm sure even the dimmest of players will catch on after awhile that 'hey, I'm better off shooting some of these TIE fighters on my tail and pulling some stunt dodges until my damage bonus for using missiles is big enough to overcome the DR of the exhaust tunnel!'.

[NineInchNall]

So you think it breaks the simulation for Luke to have to fly until he can get a good shot off at the Death Star's core? You think the player should be like "I shoot the core!" "I shoot it again!" until he rolls a nat 20? Why?

No, but it does break the simulation that he can't even try, like there's some invisible force in the universe preventing him from pressing the missile button.

I thought the point you were trying to make was that there has to be an in-character reason for the variation. Such as the Naruto-style "need-an-opening" thing. The need for an opening is the universe's (a.k.a. the writer's) preventing him from pressing the Rasengan button.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I thought the point you were trying to make was that there has to be an in-character reason for the variation. Such as the Naruto-style "need-an-opening" thing. The need for an opening is the universe's (a.k.a. the writer's) preventing him from pressing the Rasengan button.

The writer of the story can decide to have Naruto push the Rasengan button whenever he feels like. The important part is that it only appears to need to have certain rules in the story like needing a setup and having to wear down the enemy first. But there's nothing stopping the writer from just deciding to make all fights one-panel curbstomps via Rasengan. Hell, Kishimoto actually did throw fight buildup to the wind once and it pissed a lot of people off.

The lesson to take away from that is that things like having to use rocket punches and flying robo knees until you can use your Voltron Laser Sword is completely arbitrary when you have total control of the story. However, people really don't like rocket launcher tag nor do people like DBZ charge-ups until people use the REAL move so writers tend to avoid it.

Now in a cooperative storytelling game, while you do want to have rules that doesn't make pushing the Rasengan button multiple times until he wins the fight the best option, I don't see the point in preventing him from pushing the button until some arbitrary force says its okay. If the player wants to keep pushing the button even though the rules say that that it's inefficient to do that unless he does some other moves first then it should be a choice.

What will eventually happen is that Naruto will catch on and he won't use Rasengan until it's thematically or strategically important--even if the strategy is simple as 'if you use that move this round, you get a free reroll and maximum damage!' So even though there's no force in the in-game universe nor the rules preventing the player from just spamming Rasengan until he rolls a natural twenty on it, he's discouraged from actually doing so.

I mean, think about it. Everyone human the D&D-verse has to eat and sleep. Any human being with even a little bit of sense will eat regularly if they can and sleep when they can get it. However, there shouldn't be rules that forbid characters from travelling until they have enough food stores nor should players be automatically forced to ingest food either. If someone wants to starve themselves to death in the game then it should be an option, even though it's a horrible option.

Otherwise you get bullshit like 4E taking out the Sunder and Disarm and Trip rules because the game designers felt like they were too complicated for most players to use correctly.

[NineInchNall]

The writer of the story can decide to have Naruto push the Rasengan button whenever he feels like. The important part is that it only appears to need to have certain rules in the story like needing a setup and having to wear down the enemy first. But there's nothing stopping the writer from just deciding to make all fights one-panel curbstomps via Rasengan. Hell, Kishimoto actually did throw fight buildup to the wind once and it pissed a lot of people off.

And a system of randomized access makes it appear that the character has to go through some bullshit before busting out the Rasengan. It even allows for the occasional fight where the character busts out the Rasengan right off the bat, creating dramatic tension. The opening for a Rasengan may never materialize, or the opponent may never make an attack that leaves him open enough to be hit with an aikido-style counter throw and arm-bar; the opening for a Rasengan may be there from the beginning, or the opponent may leave his arm out there a little too long on his first attack.

Now keep in mind that I'm not necessarily advocating that Option Access be randomized. Alls I's sayin' is that it's not as antithetical to verisimilitude and narrative as you seem to think.

Now in a cooperative storytelling game, while you do want to have rules that doesn't make pushing the Rasengan button multiple times until he wins the fight the best option, I don't see the point in preventing him from pushing the button until some arbitrary force says its okay. If the player wants to keep pushing the button even though the rules say that that it's inefficient to do that unless he does some other moves first then it should be a choice.

I tend to think that the option to suck is not an option at all. In fact, it seems just plain cruel to dangle the Rasengan in front of poor Naruto when it's being comparatively crippled.

It makes me think of Toughness. You want Toughness in the game so that the player can choose to sell all his feats on fire for no profit.

What will eventually happen is that Naruto will catch on and he won't use Rasengan until it's thematically or strategically important.

Like when it isn't being comparatively nerfed? Which is really friggin' similar to not having the move available until he draws one from his Library and has enough mana.

[MartinHarper]

Having watched to much Naruto recently, it seems that most of the fights aren't particularly about waiting for an opening, but rather are about learning about your opponent and creating a strategy. Naruto can totally use Rasengan as his first move, and sometimes he does. When he does, he invariably ends up hitting a clone, or getting caught in a genjutsu, or just plain being dodged.

To model this in a game, I'd have the team gain Knowledge Points against each enemy. Every round of combat, and based on certain events, you gain points. Naruto gains no points for his team, as he is dumb as mud, but hopefully you have a ninja with a brain along for the ride. Provided the team can communicate, they can share knowledge points. Finisher moves can be used at any time, but they get a bonus to attack based on your knowledge of the enemy, and they give the enemy bonus knowledge against you when you use them. Basic starter moves don't gain a benefit from knowledge, but don't give away knowledge either.

If you beat up a bag of rats, you gain knowledge points against rats. If you stooge with your team mates, you gain knowledge points on your team mates.

[Psychic Robot]

What if instead of rolling to see what powers you got every round you rolled to see which powers of yours got bonuses?

For example, if a player had ten powers to choose from then she might favor her Magnet Beam and Rocket Punch powers. However, if she rolled in such a way that ahead of time she knew that if she picked Machine Gun Fingers or Laser Eyes this round instead they'd get a massive bonus to attack/damage or bonus secondary effects or whatever. She could still use Rocket Punch if she felt like, it just would work like it always would.

Her party could still use attack pattern alpha or she could use EMP whenever she felt like when facing the robots. However, the character would often have a major incentive to use other powers as well. She and her friends could still form an exacting strategy like the party switching to flame attacks when the wizard uses Ice Cape but one or two of the other party members might use Disintegrate O-Vision or Arrow Flurry instead because it'll still do more damage than Heat Vision and Flame Arrow.

That seems interesting, but I'd be afraid that it would end up like 4e: it looks like you have options, but you really don't. I suppose it would depend on the execution of the powers. Hrmm. Well, let's take Dr. Wizard. The good doctor has several categories of spells.

1. Damage (single target or AoE).
2. Battlefield control (grease, ice storm, etc.).
3. Crowd control (stuns, mezzes, etc.).
4. Buffs.

He rolls 2d4. Whichever numbers the dice land on grant him a bonus on his spells of that category (1 = damage, 2 = battlefied control, and so on) for 1 round.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I tend to think that the option to suck is not an option at all. In fact, it seems just plain cruel to dangle the Rasengan in front of poor Naruto when it's being comparatively crippled.

You know what else is an option to suck? Going into battle without magic weapons or not regularly sleeping. Are you going to take away the player's option to go around naked?

It makes me think of Toughness. You want Toughness in the game so that the player can choose to sell all his feats on fire for no profit.

Toughness is only a problem because it looks like a viable feat when really it isn't and because it crowds out all of the other options because of the opportunity cost.

If someone picks up the 'Fire Sword' attack and insists on using it against Salamanders because they think Sol Badguy is really cool then it's their own damn fault.

Like when it isn't being comparatively nerfed? Which is really friggin' similar to not having the move available until he draws one from his Library and has enough mana.

It averts the situation of Colossus somehow being unable to throw Wolverine to the top of the building until he pounds sand for 3 rounds, even though he's perfectly allowed to throw rocks and even though he was able to do that right away the last time he was ambushed by Sentinels in this exact spot.

All it asks in return is for players not to be total idiots. Why would you use the attack that only gives you a +3 bonus when you could use an attack that has the exact same effects, only at a +7 bonus?

[Neeeek]

Are you going to take away the player's option to go around naked?

The player's option? Probably. Gaming with naked people is a little strange. There are some girls I've played with I'd make an exception for...


How's this for a solution: You roll the die, and anything above your roll can be used, but receives a substantial penalty for each point the power is above your roll. If the point of the winds of fate is that the character has to wait for the opportune moment to strike with the big guns, then striking at the wrong time should be less effective.

Under this method, I'd probably base the levels of powers on how complicated they are to use/difficult to perform/easy to defend against (while still making the higher point ones more powerful, but the justification would be that you are having trouble doing it because it's hard to set up).

[zeruslord]

In a powers-based game, I would probably want all moves on all the time and a system of degrading resistances over time. Basically, the heroes should be able to pull out their supermove at any point, but the farther along the combat is, the more likely it will succeed. The alternative is to have moves come on line based on certain conditions. I would want to avoid a system where moves come online and then vanish the next round if I don't use them, unless there is an explicit set of conditions that drive them.

[Ice9]

Is the randomization actually adding more tactical choice, or is it simply improving the fight aesthetically?

I mean, the criticism I remember hearing about "all your powers are available all the time" was that players would simply spam the most appropriate power for the situation. It seems like Winds of Fate would simply cause them to spam the most appropriate available power for the situation. Which really isn't any more or less strategy, it simply "looks" more interesting, because the characters are using a variety of different moves.

But if aesthetics are the point, why not simply use the same move repeatedly and describe it differently each time? So the player keeps picking "Flame Blast", but the character is doing a bunch of different stuff - throwing a fireball one round, swinging a sword made of flames the next, summoning a burning imp, spitting out oil and lighting it with a torch, and so forth. Now I'm not saying this is the system I'd want, but from a tactical PoV, that's what random seems to get you.


Personally, I'm in favor of the "knowledge points" idea, because - unlike stooging, charging up outside the door, or "camping" a location because you have bonuses in that spot - spying on an opponent to gain an advantage is something that actually should work.

[Bigode]

The thing is, even the most fiddly positional games don't keep track of where an enemy's shield is at all times. When an opening is available is an abstract, and dare I say: random concern.

But, at least from actual fighting, "having an opening" happens to be a point where some maneuver's easier, not that it's impossible to even attempt otherwise (and that seems to include a lot of the examples being thrown around by both sides as well). Hence, Lago's idea.

Having random access to the Mega Big Bang Attack actually feels less, I don't know, static than always having the same choices available to you. Which is why I find the Crusader more entertaining to play than the Warblade, despite the latter's superiority. It's why when I play a Shadowcraft Mage I seriously roll to see what book I can choose a spell from each round. 'Cause otherwise it's going to be a maximized whirlwind of teeth every time.

On the mage: are we assuming gross (unintentional) ability imbalance? On the crusader: I dislike it's complete randomness, especially with a maneuver list that isn't actually big and might even contain repeats, but this one seems fairly good to me - partial randomness, perhaps?

Triptastic fighters are boring as shit. They trip a dude. And then they do it again. And again. And if you just let people choose any of their moves every round, it's going to end up like that. Not just because people will have invested so much in trip bonuses (or whatever), but because people are inherently uncreative when they are not confronted with new challenges. If you don't force them to mix up their tactics, they won't.

What's leading people to think one needs random access to vary tactics, instead of just changing enemies and locations?

All it asks in return is for players not to be total idiots. Why would you use the attack that only gives you a +3 bonus when you could use an attack that has the exact same effects, only at a +7 bonus?

Did you just say they won't? Then the option doesn't exist in any important way, just as the ability to attempt shooting my head to summon spirits doesn't - neither's gonna be taken seriously, as per yourself.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Did you just say they won't? Then the option doesn't exist in any important way, just as the ability to attempt shooting my head to summon spirits doesn't - neither's gonna be taken seriously, as per yourself.

Okay, confession time. Here's what I was going for.

While for the most part people (especially people who don't like to crunch numbers) are encouraged to pick the option with the higher bonus, I also still think that there should be an option for Iron Man to use his flamethrowers against Martian Manhunter or use his flashbangs to try to blind him, even if right now he gets the most generic bonuses from using his shoulder cannons.

The idea is that players who have system mastery and/or want to use a power creatively still have the option to do so. For generic situations it's better to use the power that won the lottery but you still want to have a situation where Batman can throw thermite discs at the floor of the ice palace--there's no way to account for that kind of tactics in the rules ahead of time so a player should be occasionally rewarded for stepping outside the box.

But if you're just fighting tentacle monster bank robbers there's really no need to deviate from the tactic of just injuring things you hate until they get defeated. Not every fight has to be a Death Note-ish continuous circle of exploiting weaknesses and taking advantage of the environment beyond 'there's cover and difficult terrain there--work around it!' In situations like these it's desirable for a player to churn through as many powers as possible to prevent monotony.

But it' not desirable for players to do that ALL of the time. Just 80-90% of the time.

[Bigode]

Not every fight has to be a Death Note-ish continuous circle of exploiting weaknesses and taking advantage of the environment beyond 'there's cover and difficult terrain there--work around it!'

I disagree. Hence my question on the previous post, right above the one you replied to now.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Not every fight has to be a Death Note-ish continuous circle of exploiting weaknesses and taking advantage of the environment beyond 'there's cover and difficult terrain there--work around it!'

I disagree. Hence my question on the previous post, right above the one you replied to now.

Maybe this is just my personal opinion, but I don't think every fight should be an hours-long, memorable action-packed experience people talk about for years. I mean, it's great if they are, but fact of the matter is sometimes people just want combats that are no more complicated than 'the orcs are on the other side of this bridge. Run over there and kill they ass.' People have been doing that for years with little more tactics or thought than 'I waste it with my crossbow!' or 'I swing my Hackmaster +12!' and find that fun. I dunno, I think that we can occasionally cater to that lizard portion of our brains, the part that just wants instant gratification.

This statement of course has no bearing on how I think this power replenishment scheme should be run, I just wanted to give you some insight into that statement.

[Sir Neil]

Lago, it sounds like you want the system used in Marvel Saga. Every card in your hand is keyed to certain attacks. If you use an attack keyed to the card you play, you double the card's value. If Colossus had a hand full of melee cards, he could use a fastball special, but it wouldn't be as effective.

[RandomCasualty2]

I think most people would rather have a system where you actively try to create an opening, through various sliders, or what not, rather than just have it randomly determined for you.

The problem is that random determination really kills the tactics. But then again, so does spamming the same move over and over again. We want there to be meaningful tactical choices where certain moves would work well or poorly given the situation. Some moves may require some manner of set up, and thus you have the basic choices of:
-Try to attack and damage the opponent with what you've got.
-Try to set up an uber attack.
-Try to foil your opponent and prevent them from setting up an uber attack.

[NineInchNall]

I think most people would rather have a system where you actively try to create an opening, through various sliders, or what not, rather than just have it randomly determined for you.

In such a set up I can see people going through predetermined action patterns to maximize the effectiveness of each maneuver, if you will. In the end, on that path lies the feeling of sameness that bugs me in the first place with the 4e power scheme.

How's this for a solution: You roll the die, and anything above your roll can be used, but receives a substantial penalty for each point the power is above your roll. If the point of the winds of fate is that the character has to wait for the opportune moment to strike with the big guns, then striking at the wrong time should be less effective.

Under this method, I'd probably base the levels of powers on how complicated they are to use/difficult to perform/easy to defend against (while still making the higher point ones more powerful, but the justification would be that you are having trouble doing it because it's hard to set up).

I really like this suggestion as a middle ground. It even allows for a certain "Hail Mary" kind of action where the player chooses to use his Amakakeru Ryuu no Hirameki despite having rolled a one, because at that point, why wouldn't he go for broke rather than plink with his weakest attack.

Quite cool, methinks.

[Bigode]

PARANOIA: OK, I exaggerated. And despite what your username might tell you, not on purpose. I meant to say that with regards to every fight one might care about. For the others, depending on players present, my attitude varies between making sure whatever they do more or less works (hence, no crap about resources' given) and "OK, you won". Hence, the ones for which I'd discuss actual rules should IMO, indeed look like your description.

[IGTN]

An interesting idea I just had: Every character has a few reactive defense powers. These can soften a blow used on them, and work better on bigger powers. They might also have some built-in counter abilities where you bounce the attack back, or eat it and it makes you stronger, or you gain a bonus to hit against the person countered proportionate to how powerful the attack is. The point of those counters, though, is that a big power soaked on a defense puts you in a worse place than if you'd used a small power.

When you start a combat, you have most/all of your defenses, but when you use a defense, it goes away; you can gain back used defenses by taking combat actions or by random luck as you go through combat.

Knowledge of defenses should be symmetric, or nearly so; if the monsters' defenses are secret, the PCs' should also be, with an audit after combat if necessary. If the DM tracks the PCs defenses, then the PCs should be able to find out and track the monsters' defenses, or at least get a "The Shield is Down!" alert.

The point of these, then, is that you use your weaker attacks to force your opponent to exhaust their defense abilities, and then you hit them with the big move. You can use the big move early, but it's an auto-miss and puts you into a bad position, tactically.

For the Winds of Fate, I like the idea of sticking a heavy penalty to hit on using higher-level moves; if trying to use a 6-move on a 4 is an auto-miss, then that's no problem, especially for moves that have effects on a miss, such as Fighterdoken (where Fighter is moved to right in front of the enemy. On a hit, he also does a large amount of damage; on a miss, he just moves).

[JonSetanta]

IGTN: You don't mean randomly chosen defenses, right? Because that's.... odd.


Got a bandaid for Lago's bawww. Jeez, it's like yet another thread every time we get a derail..

The power effect option changes and recharges out of an available pool of at most 6 different effects, each recharging when a d6 is rolled on the corresponding number.
The method of delivery stays the same; as by default for the character's attack method.

OK, so maybe you won't get Just The Card I Was Looking For in every battle, but the process of having randomly charged superfinisher moves in each battle ensures at least 2 things:
• Most battles will be unique (if not unpredictable)
• You won't have a guarantee of charging a specific desired move as soon as battle starts; you might, but it's only a chance.

Proceed to ignore my comment, miraculously come to the same conclusion later, and so on.


Here we go with a sample concept:

Ultimate Attack tied to Sig's Big Explosion (Long range, Close Burst, Ref. save for half, etc) occur on matching roll (1d6), 1 per encounter:
1- Extra Damage
2- Ignite Flame
3- Pushes Enemies
4- Free Close Range Teleport
5- Stuns, 1 round
6- Wider Burst

Since the delivery is the same each time (a ranged AOE attack) and target options can still vary, rolling an effect mismatched for the target shouldn't happen unless the enemy has some odd immunity doing on.
No chicken bashing required and you won't get the same result every time.

[JonSetanta]

There's a second part to Super Moves, possibly related to RC's concept of 'tracks'.

Samurai Showdown aka Shin Samurai Spirits, among other games, has/had a bar that fills according to damage taken.
Then the bar is full, new moves are granted and prove to be a bit more intense than the usual.

While this concept fits with the dreaded Charge mechanic one need not worry about PCs commanding minions
That's the easy part, really; as Frank's relevant (dismissive) quote mentions in the previous thread,

When a power has an effect that occurs upon hitting a target—or reducing a target to 0 hit points—the power functions only when the target in question is a meaningful threat. Characters can gain no benefit from carrying a sack of rats in hopes of healing their allies by hitting the rats.

The only thing that can induce a character in to blowing their top is a good challenge.
Without worthy opposition, the emotional/plot/luck basis simply doesn't occur to drive whatever natural or supernatural force causes the Gar Attacks.

The hard part is deciding how much Charge.
3e Psionics use far too many PP in comparison and personally I like to keep the numbers small.

---

I propose that the Rage Meter (better name? anything) is the random factor here

Let's say that each successful hit from an enemy (not ally or self, natch) must be made with the intent to kill and causes actual damage.
• Each of these qualifying blows builds 1 Rage.
• Maximum Rage stored is 3. Other factors such as RP or abilities might influence the amount of Rage held even before battle begins, but this is more of an extraneous circumstance than a daily occurrence.
• Rage reduction to use a Super Attack will be a full Rage Meter.
The handy 1d6 can still have a part here; when the first Rage is acquired, roll a d6 and add it to the minimum Rage needed to use your Super.

So, in the course of suffering at least 4 hits the Rage builds.
Since the Super Move may only be used when the whole Rage Meter is full, the exact number of hits needed will vary for each battle, but it can be predicted.

Abilities could also affect Rage buildup. Some abilities might accumulate Rage on failure, others on success, but should be kept to about a 1-in-20 chance of affecting in general.

[Heath Robinson]

Instead of a randomly determined power level, why not begin with a power level of 1 and increment it every N turns? Using an ability with a required power level equal to your current power level should cause it to fall one level. Perhaps your general low level spammable has a chance to increase your power level, or perhaps expending certain kinds of (presumably rare/expensive) items would guarantee an increase.

Sure, this is currently arbitrary but it should produce a useful set of choices on a turn-to-turn basis. If you want to avoid reliable increases, and/or make achieving stratospheric power levels difficult, have it based off a random roll using some ability against a threshold set according to current power level.

Certain abilities might always burn a power level (perhaps in addition to the level burnt from needing the current power level) to give you good reason to avoid using them.