The Gaming Den

That sounded like there were a lot of "any one smart would..." in the description of how one would "just happen" to build a strong character. Sounds like "requires system mastery" to me, to be honest.

Exactly, the whole level 10 party has to be min/maxed 'to hit' to the hilt, a level 9 party of 'typical' players won't stand a chance, short of a 3+ hour battle.

In any event, the level 10 party, if they blow some dailies and don't catch any bad breaks (keep in mind, that vampire can heal up 100 points of damage with little difficulty, and it could be more), then, with some luck, they can take it out in perhaps 7 rounds, probably more.

Whoa, this is a 'too easy to even be listed' encounter?

Put two vampires in, and now it's a brutal, long fight, since now those dailies/encounters won't hit both vampires, usually, and the regeneration works on both, and there's a better chance of characters getting bloody...and it STILL counts less than a level 10 encounter for 5 players.

So the point is still: under absolute optimal conditions, the vampire is much more powerful than its level indicates.


Still don't believe me?

Try doing the same analysis with a totally optimized level 4 party, versus a level 5 elite, the gelatinous cube. The cube has an AC of 18 (and miserable NADS, unlike the Vampire), so a fully optimized (under the extreme assumptions given above) 'to hit' level 4 character will hit on a 5 or better. (5 for ability, 2 for level, 3 for proficiency, 1 for expertise, and 2 for magic weapon)

The cube has no healing, no dominate, and not even the massive potential for damage of the vampire, and, being mindless, it's a bit more credible the party getting combat advantage on it.

The poor thing won't last anywhere near 7 rounds. Put two cubes together, and now we're looking at an encounter OVER the party's level.

I'll be acquiring the Monster Manual 2 soon, so I'll update you guys on anything problematic I notice in there (Beholder Ultimate Eye Tyrant was an earlier one I showed).

Gauths are problem monsters, able to put people to sleep or weaken them constantly.

Try actually reading the Human section without raging. Nothing that I saw problematic, but seriously, take a look. Human Insane Noble is level 23 with no lore, human nobles are level 5 with some lore. So if you go crazy, you gain +18 levels? Human Insane Nobles also can't provoke OA's which means wonky interaction with several abilities.

Barghest Battle Lord. He can change shape as a minor action, as the following AT WILLS

Wolf: +12 vs ac 2d6+4 damage, prone
Hogbolin: +12 vs ac 1d10+5, invisible to target until end of next turn (he can attack while invis and stay that way btw)
Psychic Howl (any form): +11 vs Will range 10, 1d8+5 psychic
Target is dazed until the end of BARGHEST's next turn

And they take a -2 penalty to attack rolls after.

His encounters: Shift 2 squares on when hit and a close balst 5: +11 vs fort, 1d8+1 necro and 5 ongoing damage. When a target tkaes ongoing, he gains 5 hp

He's not even ELITE.

A bit of thread necromancy here, but the Lamia (l12 elite controller) belongs in this thread.

One was responsible for a TPK in last night's 4e game.

they have a Close Burst 5 that Stuns, and recharges on a 5-6. Just to clarify, that's an 11x11 square.
They also have an aura that deals 10 per round to anyone adjacent.
Their melee basic attack dazes and also heals them - they get to use this on Opportunity attacks
And they have a power that deals 3d6+4 on a hit, and can then deal that each round as a sustain minor without needing new to hit rolls.

Oh, and they take half damage from most of what your PCs can do. Unless you have like a Wizard in the party, nearly all your at wills are at half strength, and as she has 244 HP and probably 3 allies, you do not have enough Area/Close encounters and dailies to really take advantage of the vulnerability.

How does this play out:

It waits for most of the party to be within 5. and then it stuns at least half of them with Pacifying Burst. It moves adjacent to a stunned PC (probably the Rogue), and uses its action point to start Devouring Swarm for 3d6+4. That PC then takes 10 damage before they even get their first save vs stun, and another 3d6+4 on the lamia's next turn as a minor. If they saved against stun, she either restuns everyone if shes recharges or she hits him with Cursed Touch for the Daze. The best case here is that the PC is only dazed on his turn and has the option of staying put to make an attack, but taking 3d6+14 continuing over the next round, shifting one square to take only 3d6+4 continuing, or running out of both continuing areas and providing the Lamia a Cursed Touch of opportunity. Note that with multiple PCs stunned or dazed and running and all their at wills dealing half damage, allowing this second Cursed Touch provides her healing that nearly keeps up with the damage the PCs can deal through her defenses.
If the poor rogue fails just two stun saves in a row, he takes like 60 of his like 80 HP before he even gets to act again and that's just from continuing damage, the Lamia is free to finish him with her dazing vampiric attack, or to daze his would-be rescuer trapping them with the devil's choice of taking aura damage or providing her extra HP.

Elf Archer Level 2 artillery

Stats are not too impressive, but it has a speed of 7 and a range of 20/40. Its basically a one man kiting machine. Seriously, it gets a bonus if it moves a lot when it shoots and suggested tactics say run around and shoot people. Also has some special abilities, including one that lets them step back and shoot you in the face if you ever somehow get a swing at them. If your group does not have a ranger or someone with an 8 or higher movement speed you are pretty much fucked.

I ran two Black Oozes (L8 Elite Brute) against a melee-heavy level 7 party the other day and it went really badly; if all of the attacks are Weapon and the party doesn't have ways to kill more than one enemy at once then they will get quickly overwhelmed by the black ooze spawns. These spawns hit for 10 points of damage.

I almost had to call a mulligan in the middle of the fight because the Leeroy Jenkinsish Swordmage (who didn't have Swordburst at the time) and Ranger ran right in and blew their APs hacking away. So by round 2 they were facing 8 minion oozes and two black oozes. The warlord and bard had to blow all of their healing to keep them alive--it was the first encounter of the day, too, but they burned so much healing that they had to rest right in the middle of the dungeon.

I'm kind of sad that Iron Mongler Trollquit, because I was thinking about reviving this thread.

But does anyone agree with my contention that around mid-paragon tier monsters really don't pose much of a threat to PCs anymore? I mean, they can still hobble a PC like crazy but healing is so in this game at this point that it's really hard to cause a TPK unless you throw in an overpowered monster at the end of a long workday. And that's assuming that they don't get ganked by something like an Attacks on the Run + Blade Cascade + 3 minor action ranger salvo.

There are a number of monsters that can stunlock the PCs pretty much indefinitely. And if that shit happens, healing doesn't mean shit. Of course, nothing else the enemies do means a hill of beans either.

But the basic fact that two high level clerics can pretty much cancel all incoming damage with their Astral Seals for level appropriate foes means that nothing really matters except for genuinely broken crazy based on Lamias not letting you act at all.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA wrote: But does anyone agree with my contention that around mid-paragon tier monsters really don't pose much of a threat to PCs anymore?

Yeah, really how 4E is set up, the higher you go, the less deadly combats become, and the more they favor PCs. Even non-optimized PCs do fine, it just takes them forever to actually kill shit, but given how awesome healing is, the threat is completely minimal.

Certainly agreed, RAW, the monsters can't possibly deal enough damage.

You guys haven't played with the bard yet, but it also has fairly good healing (free healing whenever a monster is bloodied or killed is a bit much...). I get to see how busted healing is since my players have a cleric AND a bard.

I've been tinkering with double damage for minions, + 1/2 lvl damage for other monsters, and it's still a bit light.

Many monsters have decent 'follow up' attacks (eg, Purple Worm), although escape is so easy that you prett much have to use an action point to actually use such an attack. I ran a module using all follow-ups as minor actions (using Cthulhulian monsters from Level Up! mag), and the players actually got an eense worried. I should have done it with the worm, but that might have been a bit much (incidentally we used the RAW interpretation that a swallowed fighter still marked the worm, and generated all relevant marking effects).

Also, small-ish purple dice bags make great worms.