[Pathfinder] More previews up

Ravengm · Post by **Ravengm** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:20 am

I really haven't kept up on Pathfinder since the Beta, which I last looked at quite some time ago, so I'm probably forgetting some things.

I fully acknowledge their writing skills, and that's certainly the high point of the book.

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:43 am

Kaelik wrote:I think the point is that they managed to make a pathetic Cleric and Sorcerer, so pretty much any character they make is going to fail to live up to the adjectives mighty and powerful, seeing as the Paladin will probably when smiting and shit do less damage per full attack than a hybrid/melee caster of his CR. (Or just a weak punchy monster if they are low enough level that there are no hybrids.)

It is pretty bad when they improve the class chassis (now domains give you bonus spells and multiple granted powers) and still create a mediocre iconic character.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:36 am

I'm just confused why on these two points which have been made:

Naming an un-named bonus is worse.

...And why would you lose surprise rounds by being buffed?

-Crissa

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:39 am

Kaelik wrote:I think the point is that they managed to make a pathetic Cleric and Sorcerer, so pretty much any character they make is going to fail to live up to the adjectives mighty and powerful, seeing as the Paladin will probably when smiting and shit do less damage per full attack than a hybrid/melee caster of his CR. (Or just a weak punchy monster if they are low enough level that there are no hybrids.)

Now let's be fair here. Gishes are the best melee builds in the game. So even if that Paladin were designed right, it would still have a weaker auto attack than them.

The problem is that it would likely have Monk level damage, even when dealing with evil foes given their laughable game design and character design skills. And that may be being overly generous.

Crissa wrote:I'm just confused why on these two points which have been made:

Naming an un-named bonus is worse.

...And why would you lose surprise rounds by being buffed?

-Crissa

Named bonuses are considered worse because they don't stack with themselves. But it only matters if you could feasibly get another bonus of the same time anyways. So say... +3 luck is just as good as +3 unnamed, unless there's another +3 luck you could get in which case getting +3 unnamed the first time is better so you get a total of +6 instead of still only having +3.

You lose surprise rounds because they're 1 round a level spells, so whatever you're about to attack hears you casting and is now aware of your presence when before, you might have been able to get the jump on them. And if you already have got the jump on them, you could just spend your free standard ending the fucking combat instead of casting a round a level buff, so it is still losing a surprise round in the sense you are forfeiting it.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:56 pm

Well, I never said that it was better.

I'm just making fun of the fact that they didn't really nerf the class, and instead gave it a stealth buff (free haste-package meal), when they were intending to actually nerf the class. That part is actually really funny.

It's like trying to demolish a concrete bunker; and while, the bombs land, the bunker isn't actually destroyed, but instead now has a slightly changed appearance.

Maybe the guns on the bunker got a slight bit less accurate, but instead of having 1 big gun that was worth a damn, it now has a speedloader for said gun, and that big gun shoots twice as fast.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:05 pm

It's also Standard Paizil Fare/Fail, or SPF for short.

We should probably make a rating scale, then their latest can just be summarily dismissed as SPF 30 or whatever. Sounds too much like sunblock though.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:05 pm

Roy wrote:You didn't get it right by the way. "Damage oriented melee character' is an oxymoron. There's only one type of melee character, so specifying 'damage oriented' is redundant. Well, unless you want to count 'useless' as a type.

A) You don't know what oxymoron means.

B) It's already been pointed out to you that there are viable melee roles that deal little to no damage.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:54 pm

Judging__Eagle wrote:Well, I never said that it was better.

I'm just making fun of the fact that they didn't really nerf the class, and instead gave it a stealth buff (free haste-package meal), when they were intending to actually nerf the class.

So "buff" doesn't mean "better" to you?

I'm surprised that there are so many melee fighters out there with no access to Haste, but chacun a son gout. I agree that it's not really a nerf, though.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:09 pm

NineInchNall wrote:
Roy wrote:You didn't get it right by the way. "Damage oriented melee character' is an oxymoron. There's only one type of melee character, so specifying 'damage oriented' is redundant. Well, unless you want to count 'useless' as a type.
A) You don't know what oxymoron means.

B) It's already been pointed out to you that there are viable melee roles that deal little to no damage.

False claims are not valid claims. Try again.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:25 pm

Let's please not start this shit again; it's what got the last thread closed. If what you think contradicts what Roy says, just ignore Roy.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:46 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:Let's please not start this shit again; it's what got the last thread closed. If what you think contradicts what Roy says, just ignore Roy.

While it is true that the bullshit needs to stop now, your advice is terrible. Full stop.

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:42 pm

(this seemed less provocative when I wrote it. removed!)

Post by **fbmf** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:48 pm

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]

Either ignore someone or don't, but stop talking about it.

[/TGFBS]

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:17 am

--- nevermind. it would be contributing to the flames. ---

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:49 am

hogarth wrote:I'm surprised that there are so many melee fighters out there with no access to Haste, but chacun a son gout. I agree that it's not really a nerf, though.

Haste is a perfectly reasonable thing for the Wizard to throw down every fight if he was otherwise considering tossing Fireballs. Over a battle, haste is going to hand out a lot more damage than a fireball ever would. But a lot of the time your Wizard is going to want to be casting battle magic of a more defensive nature - like Stinking Cloud or Black Tentacles.

Those Wizards are frankly more effective than the ones that spend their time buffing attacks. So the Cleric hasting himself is going to get a big thumb's up from the Conjurer.

-Username17

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:00 am

FrankTrollman wrote:
hogarth wrote:I'm surprised that there are so many melee fighters out there with no access to Haste, but chacun a son gout. I agree that it's not really a nerf, though.
Haste is a perfectly reasonable thing for the Wizard to throw down every fight if he was otherwise considering tossing Fireballs. Over a battle, haste is going to hand out a lot more damage than a fireball ever would. But a lot of the time your Wizard is going to want to be casting battle magic of a more defensive nature - like Stinking Cloud or Black Tentacles.

But there's Boots of Speed, too. And Snake's Swiftness. And Righteous Whatchamacallit. Etc.

At any rate, every campaign is different, I suppose.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:13 am

Except you're all forgetting the original point. If Divine Power is basically Righteous Wrath now in that you get Haste for free as part of the deal, then that action you would have used on Righteous Wrath is now also giving you Divine Power. Or you aren't casting anything. And you save 12k and your boot slot for other things.

Since they did in fact roll Righteous Wrath into Divine Power, this means in any situation you would have hasted yourself you are now better off in. Therefore, Divine Power is buffed in every situation, despite their claims to the contrary.

The other classes aren't the ones with Divine Power. They're an irrelevant smokescreen. Same for their access to Haste, or lack thereof.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:54 am

Okay, if your casting spoiled your surprise, let me hit your DM with a shovel. And you.

Second, if unnamed bonuses are a 'good system' - why are we phasing them out?

-Crissa

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:49 am

Crissa wrote:Okay, if your casting spoiled your surprise, let me hit your DM with a shovel. And you.

Second, if unnamed bonuses are a 'good system' - why are we phasing them out?

-Crissa

So you are not only actually surprised that casting a spell (which involves a lot of noise by the way) ruined your surprise round, but are actually offended it isn't treated as a 'mob hasn't spawned yet' by the enemies hearing you doing that and now knowing you're there?

*grabs an oversized shovel fitted with chainswords*

C'mere ya little fucker. Darwin demands it.

Iron Mongler · Post by **Iron Mongler** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:59 pm

Pathfinder is meant to be compatible with all other 3.5 books, right? How is that even possible?

Also...Lightning Reflexes? Seriously? I can forgive the rest, but I somehow get the feeling they just wanted to toss out any cleric they could for their 'preview'.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:55 am

Iron Mongler wrote:Pathfinder is meant to be compatible with all other 3.5 books, right? How is that even possible?

It's not, but 90% of the changes in Pathfinder are cosmetic anyways.

Ganbare Gincun · Post by **Ganbare Gincun** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:00 am

hogarth wrote:It's not, but 90% of the changes in Pathfinder are cosmetic anyways.

I must admit that I like what they tried to do with the Sorcerer class to set it apart from the Wizard. And I also like the changes that they made to the Polymorph Spells. But as Roy would say... it's mostly filled with Fail.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:04 am

Iron Mongler wrote:Pathfinder is meant to be compatible with all other 3.5 books, right? How is that even possible?

It isn't. They changed a lot of stuff here and there for no discernible reasons. Well, at least there are no discernible reasons for (or benefits from) their particular changes. They redid combat maneuvers and made them shit, added a new skill because, and introduced a whole lot of small non-obvious changes into just about everything else, from races to spells that ensured that the system will blow up the instant you try to connect it to 3.X supplements. At best, you'll be able to run 3.X monsters against Pathfinder characters.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:20 am

It's sort of compatible. You can use many of the PrCs and feats with only minor modification.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:39 am

The problem with "You can use PrCs feats and spells from normal books with Pathfinder" is that Pathfinder was supposed to be a fix.

If you splatbook spells, all their spell nerfs are fucking wasted. It just means people cast Vertigo Field instead of Glitterdust.

If you allow feats, then they take all those awesome feats like Shocktrooper and shit that were designed to compensate for weaknesses in Core that Pathfinder supposedly fixes, overfixing a weakness usually means being too strong. Oh yeah, and by the way, they get more of them.

So you end up with the actual balance completely fucked, and absolutely zero characters actually playing the way Pathfinder intended.