Why no 4e Classplosion?

[Crissa]

Of course, the reason they had fake but synergizing options was balance, duh. If they don't synergize, then they're going to shoo away powergamers, right?

Bah.

-Crissa

[shau]

4e already has more classes than it can deal with. Seriously, who even knows what the Avenger and Seeker actually do and care that they exist?

[Username17]

Clerics: Your prediction would be that STR/CHA and WIS/CHA are the only options, but in fact STR/WIS is quite common.

Where did I predict that? I mentioned Razor Clerics having the same stat lines as pit fighters and Blitz Rangers, because they do. That's Strength/Wisdom. The entire 4e PHB only has a single Strength/Charisma power at each tier, and the first one doesn't come online until level 7. And all three of them suck. And the only Paragon classes they make for Razor Clerics are actually Strength/Wisdom. The Strength/Charisma Cleric isn't even possible without multiclassing into Tron Paladin.

Not every class is V-Shaped. Every class build has a pre-defined 1st stat and 2nd stat. They do don't necessarily all fit into the same stat relationship between available builds. Rogues for example, are all Dex primary. And they have different mandatory secondary stats (and those secondary stats are super mandatory, because they add to damage).

Paladins: The 2 best at-wills don't have WIS riders. Few of the dailies do. And there are some decent enocunter ones that don't. A STR/CHA Paladin could walk out the door at level one with Valiant Strike, Enfeebling Strike, Piercing Smite, and Radiant Judgment feeling perfect fine with himself.

This is first of all, not true. In that the best at-wills are Bolstering Strike and Holy Strike. But in any case, you're forgetting two important factors:

[*] A +5/+3 split is better than a +4/+4 split on max stats, since the riders are not as big a deal as the primary to-hit and damage. So someone who takes the main stat with a Wisdom rider hits more often and does more damage.
[*] In any case: and then what?

4e already has more classes than it can deal with. Seriously, who even knows what the Avenger and Seeker actually do and care that they exist?

The Avenger wasn't distinguished enough from the Ranger and Barbarian, but he gets a fair amount of traction. You get to be a guy who runs around in a robe with a giant sword who does a lot of damage. Fairly high-demand character style, actually. Problem gets introduced with the fact that it's basically Dex/Wisdom, which means that shows up with the same races that were already doing Rangers. Light Armor Elven Striker, now with Melee weapon. Had they gone in a different direction, like Dex/Con or Wis/Con, they would have been quite popular, as they would have been bringing in the Gnoll or Dwarf melee zealots.

Which really underlines a problem with their DAD system in general.

The Seeker even more so. It's just a Bow Ranger. It has a bow, it's a controller instead of a striker. It's Dex/Wisdom. It shoots a lot of arrows and does a lot of damage. It's a Bow Ranger.

And that underlines a problem in them not being able or willing to make a difference between the power sources or roles. They took something with the same stat line and the same weapon and switched it from Martial to Primal and from Striker to Controller, and that should have made it feel different, but it did not. But it easily could have, if they had gone the classplosion route from the beginning rather than continuously releasing hybrid powers for the basic classes. At this point, Bow Rangers already have so many "primal-ish" powers and "controller-ish" powers that releasing an actual Primal Controller who happens to also be an Elf with a Bow doesn't feel like new territory.

-Username17

[Orion]

Clerics: Okay, I understand. Thank you for clarifying your argument.

Re: Paladins -- first note that this is academic, as none of the paladin builds are playable out of the PHB. STR/WIS can't mark, STR/CHA can't heal, and WIS/CHA can't make AoOs. That said, the problem with STR/CHA is not power selection. Let's start with the at-wills. Remember that the default stat array is 16, 14, ... and that you don't have access to Shifters or Kalashtar.

So take Holy Strike. Your Straladin is a Dragonborn with 18 STR and 14 WIS. If you use a longsword, you'll have +7 to hit for 1d8+6 damage. Valiant Strike is +8, often +9 to hit, 1d8+4 damage.

You're choosing between +25% damage and +10-20% accuracy. So Holy Strike has slightly better dps. But Valiant Strike is better against elites and bosses, more reliable, and better able to captitalize on other damage bonuses you scrape up, and doesn't require you to attack what you marked.

Now Bolstering Strike vs. Enfeebling Strike. Your Charisma Paladin is a Half-Elf with Sacred Flame. You're choosing between giving yourself 2-7 temp HP or giving the target -2 to hit for a round.

Now, 2-7 temp HP is probably greater than the expected damage negated by handing one enemy a -2 to hit. And this time the one Frank champions is the one *not* restricted to your marked enemy. But since Enfeebling Strike is an offense debuff, you should want to use it on the thing you marked anyway. Enfeebling strike is better because

--it works even if you have temp HP from another source (of which there are many)
--it works even if the enemy attacks your friends instead of you
--it reduces the chance of your getting saddled with nasty status effects

As for where you go from there? How about

Paladin 10

At-Will: Enfeebling, Valiant
Encounter: Piercing Smite, Arcing Smite, Divine Reverance (or Thunder Smite with a Glaive)
Daily: Radiant Judgment, Hallowed Circle, Radiant Pulse
Utility: Martyr's Blessing, Wrath of the Gods, Cleansing Spirit.

I took exactly one power that has a WIS rider, Piercing Smite. But if you can get a 12 in Wisdom it marks 2 people which is probably enough.

Compared a STR paladin I have the advantages of
--having a level 5 daily that doesn't suck, and having a level 9 daily at all
--having some ranged and area attacks
--being able to boost damage with Wrath of the Gods
Compared to a CHA paladin I have
--substantially better and more reliable damage. Wrath of the Gods hands out a CRAZY damage bonus, which makes every hit count. STR gave me access to Valiant Strike, which has a to-hit bonus, Piercing Smite, which attacks Reflex, and Arcing Smite, which attacks twice.

It's a well-rounded build with some good internal synergy.

In paragon you go into Champion of Order. It's attacks all get accuracy bonuses, so if CHA is your higher stat it's still playable. Not only is this PRC awesome, it synergizes well with CHA powers. once you invoke None Shall Pass, you can mark two enemies at once, but you then have to attack or be adjacent to them. Your ranged and area CHA powers will make it easier to maintain both marks.

[Roy]

First of all, if the things that "A" and "B" powers do are substantially different,

I'm sorry, but we are talking about 4E, right?

Pwned.

[Username17]

Discussing the Paladin out of the PHB is pretty futile. None of the builds are playable from level 5 on. Charisma based attacks make an unfunded mandate for holy symbols and Strength based attacks stop meaningfully existing. In either case, you suck.

But using the Default Array is just dirty pool, because no one uses the default array. Using the Default Array, the 16 Strength/16Charisma option doesn't even exist - you have to consign either your Strength or Charisma based attacks to being substandard in to-hit and damage. Also there's totally a core Str/Wis race in the core books. You don't have as many abilities as a PHB race, but one of your abilities is "Longtooth Shifting" so it doesn't even matter. +2 Damage and invulnerability as an Encounter Power triggered as a minor action when you're bloodied? WTF? You don't get any racial feats, but it doesn't much make any difference on a class that has an expiration date of level 5.

The main point is that V shaped classes do not cap themselves into triangularness, especially when you have to use the fucking default array or have limited race selection. While exceptions exist (certain Wizard and Warlord builds mostly), in general the difference in value between the primary stat and the secondary stat is very large. Meaning that correct split would be to put the highest stat in the primary and grabbing a race that provides a bonus to that stat - making the difference between the first and second stat +2 or so. And that means that offering powers that use the second stat as a primary attack stat is not a genuine choice.

For example: if you went through with being a +4/+2 Human Charisma/Strength Paladin, if you took Valiant Strike as your third at-will, you'd basically never use it. It gives a +1 bonus to-hit for every adjacent enemy, meaning that it is always at least +1 to-hit. But if you're using a primary stat that is two points lower, you're still behind on to-hit. And you're still behind on damage even if you finally get into a situation with 3 adjacent enemies and get to see an actual net to-hit bonus.

The Starlock suffers from the same problem. Using a lower stat as primary basically means that your power has to be substantially more awesome than it is normally allowed to be before that becomes even somewhat close to being worth it. As a Starlock, you have a higher Constitution than you have Charisma, because your At-Will is Constitution based. So at first level, they give you a "Star" Encounter Power that is Charisma based. But you don't take that power, because it is charisma based and therefore does not hit as often as an attack that is Constitution based. The only thing that would trick you into taking it at all is if you were really jazzed about the secondary effect - but you aren't because what it does is allow you to subtract your Intelligence modifier from the target's Will Defense for a turn. But if you had a good Intelligence modifier, you would definitionally not have a good Charisma, because you only get two good stats - andone of them is spoken for as Constitution.

So what do you do? You grab one of the Inferlock powers instead, and just suck it up that you don't get to add the Int bonus to things. You don't get an actual Starpact power you want to use even as a Constitution/Charisma split character until 3rd level, and even then the only draw of Frigid Darkness is that it temporarily drops the target's AC by your fucking Intelligence Modifier!

Meaning that a Starlock basically just has the same stat line, and many of the same powers as, an Inferlock. It's not really a different build in any real sense. Even if you did the thing they tell you to do and pumped your Charisma, you'd still be an idiot to actually take any of the Charisma powers.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

If instead they had hit the ground running with extra classes hither and yon, then the new classes wouldn't be short, and the fact that the original 8 classes were incredibly poorly written would leave them as the unpopular ones in favor of the new material. Which should be fine for the folks at WotC, because they are actually selling the new material. For money.

I don't know about this. The fanboy whining you would've gotten out of screwing over the Fighter or Cleric or Wizard (though I agree that they need to go) probably would've eclipsed the sales.

Fanboys are very silly creatures.

[Username17]

If instead they had hit the ground running with extra classes hither and yon, then the new classes wouldn't be short, and the fact that the original 8 classes were incredibly poorly written would leave them as the unpopular ones in favor of the new material. Which should be fine for the folks at WotC, because they are actually selling the new material. For money.

I don't know about this. The fanboy whining you would've gotten out of screwing over the Fighter or Cleric or Wizard (though I agree that they need to go) probably would've eclipsed the sales.

Fanboys are very silly creatures.

You think so? Back in 2nd edition AD&D, when we were offered the ability to play a "Beastmaster" or a "Pathfinder" instead of a "Ranger" we jumped all over that shit. A 4e class is just like a 2nd edition Kit and it should be released like 2nd edition Kits were.

-Username17

[hogarth]

You think so? Back in 2nd edition AD&D, when we were offered the ability to play a "Beastmaster" or a "Pathfinder" instead of a "Ranger" we jumped all over that shit. A 4e class is just like a 2nd edition Kit and it should be released like 2nd edition Kits were.

Huh?

A 2E kit took a couple of pages to write out, and generally had a couple of abilities that were different from the base class.

A 4E base class is a dozen pages of stereo instructions that you have to pore through before you can figure out the two or three powers that are actually worth having, plus another few pages' worth of paragon paths for that class, plus some epic destinities maybe, plus a batch of feats that correspond to that class.

[Username17]

You think so? Back in 2nd edition AD&D, when we were offered the ability to play a "Beastmaster" or a "Pathfinder" instead of a "Ranger" we jumped all over that shit. A 4e class is just like a 2nd edition Kit and it should be released like 2nd edition Kits were.

Huh?

A 2E kit took a couple of pages to write out, and generally had a couple of abilities that were different from the base class.

A 4E base class is a dozen pages of stereo instructions that you have to pore through before you can figure out the two or three powers that are actually worth having, plus another few pages' worth of paragon paths for that class, plus some epic destinities maybe, plus a batch of feats that correspond to that class.

A 2nd Edition AD&D Kit is much much shorter than a 4e Class, because a 2nd Edition AD&D Kit was made out of a series of function calls - like the rest of the game was. In 4e of course, the characters have all of their rules in the class, and they are packaged in the most space inefficient manner the designers could come up with. And yeah, it's twelve pages long. And that's obscene for a game edition that was supposed to sell itself with simplicity.

But they don't take very long to write and they don't cover much ground. While the 4e Seeker is really nothing like the 10 pounds of shit in a pound bag that was the 2nd edition Seeker (a Ranger kit that traded weapon proficiency for casting as a Druid 5 levels less than your own level, yet still mysteriously got a full THAC0); it's more of a Bow Ranger with a greater emphasis on Green Arrow style trick shots; remember that it is still called the Seeker and the flavor text is pretty much the same. A 2nd Edition Kit really can just be a 4th edition Class and noone bats an eye or thinks it is weird.

And that is th bottom line. In 2nd edition, if you wanted to play something that was basically a Thief but had less skills but more weapon options and some poison tricks, you'd make an Assassin kit, and you'd put it in the Complete Book of Thieves alongside the Bandit and Bounty Hunter kit. But in 4e, you literally make a whole new Assassin class if you want to fiddle with the weapon proficiencies.

And yeah, it's a waste of paper. But that's 4e for you. And it's not like these things take a long time to write.

-Username17

[hogarth]

A 2nd Edition AD&D Kit is much much shorter than a 4e Class, because a 2nd Edition AD&D Kit was made out of a series of function calls - like the rest of the game was. In 4e of course, the characters have all of their rules in the class, and they are packaged in the most space inefficient manner the designers could come up with. And yeah, it's twelve pages long. And that's obscene for a game edition that was supposed to sell itself with simplicity.

As far as I can remember, they were still usually a mild variation on the base class, though, with a few exceptions (e.g. bladesinger). The closest thing in 4E wouldn't be an entirely new class, it would be much more like one of the new builds they presented in the books Martial/Arcane/Divine Power (e.g. the beastmaster ranger or the aerialist rogue).

I don't get the impression that churning a bunch of those new builds out (which they certainly could have done, since they take up less space than a whole new base class) would have sold much more new material.