More bad news for D&D?

[Red_Rob]

Well, Blue can do aggro and combo on occasion, mainly because at some point Blue has been able to do everything but I get your point.

As a control finisher, however, this guy is distinctly substandard next to previous heavyweights like Morphling, Teferi or Keiga, simply because of his lack of any defensive ability.

[Kaelik]

Like I said, a hybrid Blue Green could focus on token spam and mana acceleration for 1-2, and on turn 3, when you hopefully have two islands, you could play this guy, and a two mana instant and have a level whatever wizard at instant speed.

[Zinegata]

Not to mention in any kind of multiplayer game, the guy is a complete auto-win.

Good God yes.

Like I said, BOLT HIM NOW.

That was the main reason I suggested tokens.

Tokens are just transferred over, automatically, without having to pay for them or perform them at Sorcery speed.

So you can just turn your Wizard into a turn generator during your turn, and then take a second turn where attack/do it again/ect.

Yep. This guy can be a really bad boy using the token method in Extended (unless Eldrazi has lots of counter-making. In which case even Standard has a fair chance of being doomed).

[Username17]

If you play him and he gets bolted, you haven't lost anything. You're out a card and your opponent is out a card. You're out a blue and a colorless and he's out a red mana and the cheese stands alone. Such is life. But if your opponent doesn't have a bolt, if they have to rely on Disintegrate for example, it's way too fucking late. They need 4 mana to blast him away that way, a whole turn on turn 4. Except by then, they'll need five mana. And of course, by turn 5 they'll need 6 - and you've already gotten an extra turn. Meaning that you've now spent essentially nothing at all on th guy and the other player has spent 6 mana and a major kill card just to make the pain stop.

High priority creatures that can hit the table on turn 2 are control cards. The guy isn't a fucking combo or anything, he's just something that is by itself so fucking nasty that your opponent has to do something about him. Which means you're spending a card to kill your opponent's card. And if your opponent magikarps for a few turns, the card's cost becomes zero and then negative. But your opponent still has to spend a card to stop you.

-Username17

[Zinegata]

If you play him and he gets bolted, you haven't lost anything. You're out a card and your opponent is out a card. You're out a blue and a colorless and he's out a red mana and the cheese stands alone.

Bolt is one mana as opposed to 2 for this guy, which isn't much. But add in the 3 mana needed to level up to level 3 and that's a 5 mana investment burnt by a 1 mana bolt. Killing the dude will not result in card advantage. But that's more like trading a Treefolk for a 1/1 Soldier.

Moreover, there's other removal available that's also fairly cheap, which isn't dependent on toughness. Magic in its current state is pretty nasty towards creatures.

Again, the BIG problem is the sorcery speed of the Level Up. Because of the stack your opponent can always react and nuke it after you've spent the mana to make him a 2/4, but before he actually transforms to a 2/4.

To solve this, you need more mana so you can protect him with counters, or go Green/Blue and shift counters at instant speed (which lets you level him up when the opponent is tapped out on his turn).

[Username17]

2 mana this turn and 3 mana next turn is not 5 mana. It's 3 mana. How would you feel about a living fireball, where it cost 1 red mana and you could tap it and pay X colorless to inflict X damage on any target?

-Username17

[Zinegata]

2 mana this turn and 3 mana next turn is not 5 mana. It's 3 mana. How would you feel about a living fireball, where it cost 1 red mana and you could tap it and pay X colorless to inflict X damage on any target?

-Username17

Uh, Frank, 2 mana this turn and 3 mana next turn is five mana total.

Yes, it's like one spell that you can pump up over multiple turns (preserving card advantage), but because you're investing all the mana in one card you're also preventing yourself from casting other spells that you might need to stop the other guy from killing you before turn 4.

Even control decks typically use up all their mana even if they don't do anything on their main step. That's what instant-speed card-drawing spells are for - it's something you cast at the opponent's end step and net yourself card advantage.

EDIT: Also, the living fireball isn't comparable. The living fireball's payback is immediate and it's instant speed. This guy has to be paid at Sorcery speed AND the payback comes only when you've paid the whole cost.

[Prak]

2 mana this turn and 3 mana next turn is not 5 mana. It's 3 mana. How would you feel about a living fireball, where it cost 1 red mana and you could tap it and pay X colorless to inflict X damage on any target?

-Username17

Uh, Frank, 2 mana this turn and 3 mana next turn is five mana total.

Yes, it's like one spell that you can pump up over multiple turns (preserving card advantage), but because you're investing all the mana in one card you're also preventing yourself from casting other spells that you might need to stop the other guy from killing you before turn 4.

Even control decks typically use up all their mana even if they don't do anything on their main step. That's what instant-speed card-drawing spells are for - it's something you cast at the opponent's end step and net yourself card advantage.

So then you level him a little slower. If you have him in your starting hand, play him turn 3, leaving one mana for card draw. Then on turn four, level him once or twice, and leave two mana for countering or card draw. etc.

[Zinegata]

So then you level him a little slower. If you have him in your starting hand, play him turn 3, leaving one mana for card draw. Then on turn four, level him once or twice, and leave two mana for countering or card draw. etc.

The issue is speed. Most control decks try to have enough mana by turn 4 to drop down something big, nigh-unkillable, and with evasion to win the game. Dropping in a few mana at a time will make it slower than mana-accelerated control decks that aim to drop a big bruiser by turn 4.

Granted, that makes it good for a deck designed to make the match last very long. But the issue again is that it doesn't come with any natural protections and you have to take care of it every step of the way. Moreover, more turns means your opponent has more chances to draw something like Terror.

As an "insurance policy" though, the guy's rather subpar, because he can't really do anything until he hits level 7. A 1/3 creature isn't really much of a threat, and he's not an ideal blocker since you don't want him in combat where he could die.

I think Kaelik really hit the nail on how to make this guy broken - which is to use counter-generators and shifters to bypass the Sorcery speed issue. Shift the counters at the opponent's end of turn step, and your opponent is gonna cry.

[Cielingcat]

I expect to see this guy as a central feature of some combo or another, but not as a main thing in mono-U control unless they give us back Counterspell and a bunch of other cheap control cards.

I mean, remember, blue control wants to drop Jace asap, so you have to leave mana for him unless you think you can get away with not having this guy. And while I haven't played Magic in a long time, I still doubt there's a blue control deck that doesn't want him.

[Ravengm]

The biggest problem with the idea of dumping all your mana into this guy is that if you're spending turns two, three, and four doing this, your opponent is curving into Sprouting Thrinax, Bloodbraid Elf, Bituminous Blast while you do that, and it doesn't even matter anymore, since chances are they'll either draw or cascade into some sort of removal.

Your best bet is probably slow-rolling him out, or pulling some High Tide-esque shenanigans.

Also, how does the counter-generation thingie work? The counters all have to be level counters still, so Doubling Season sounds like the only viable strategy there.

[Username17]

The issue is speed. Most control decks try to have enough mana by turn 4 to drop down something big, nigh-unkillable, and with evasion to win the game. Dropping in a few mana at a time will make it slower than mana-accelerated control decks that aim to drop a big bruiser by turn 4.

I don't know what you are talking about, and I suspect you don't either.

How fast or slow the game is depends entirely upon what is actually in the block. I have seen only an incredibly limited number of cards from this block, and I'm guessing the same is the case for you. It looks to me like this is intended as a relatively slow block, with a lot of spawning bullshit 0/1 blockers and walls, and creature denial that turns enemies into walls rather than killing them, and so on and so forth.

The game seems in fact, to center on rushing to 10 or 12 mana on the table in order to bring abut ricockulousy powerful Eldrazi that cost stupidly titanic piles of mana. In short - the block's intentions appear to be that no one is going to do much that is meaningful to the other player before about turn 8. This means that getting 2 turn 5s is a pretty big fucking deal.

But seriously, in a general sort of way, 3 mana will get you a fucking Hurloon Minotaur, and 5 mana will get you a Serra Angel. If you think spending 3 mana and then 4 mana is more than spending 5 mana, I don't trust your analysis. Of things.

-Username17

[Cielingcat]

The issue, Frank, is that this block still includes Alara, which is ridiculously fast. When Alara rotates out, the game will almost assuredly slow down, but until then decks that can't deal with Jund can't deal at all.

[Zinegata]

I don't know what you are talking about, and I suspect you don't either.

Frank, seriously, shut up with the insults. It will just make you look like an even bigger idiot in a thread where you've already argued 2 + 3 = 3.

How fast or slow the game is depends entirely upon what is actually in the block. I have seen only an incredibly limited number of cards from this block, and I'm guessing the same is the case for you. It looks to me like this is intended as a relatively slow block, with a lot of spawning bullshit 0/1 blockers and walls, and creature denial that turns enemies into walls rather than killing them, and so on and so forth.

Yes. Some blocks are faster than others. But there is one problem with your argument.

You're are confusing the set with the block.

Eldrazi is a set. A block is three or more sets. In this case, the block consists of Zendikar, Worldwake, and Eldrazi.

The previewed cards in Eldrazi so far already feature some mana acceleration. Those 0/1s can be sacced for 1 mana. There's even a Defender that produces a mana for every Defender you have.

But that's just the previews from one-third of the entire block. The other two sets in the block are Worldwake and Zendikar. They've been out for months. And I know both sets fairly well already.

Zendikar alone has Khalni Heart Expedition (gives you two tapped lands) and Lotus Cobra (one free mana of any color any time a land comes into play).

http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/Articl ... ar/spoiler#

Yeah, Eldrazi features some ridiculous 8/8 creatures for 8, but honestly most of those guys don't even qualify for an end-game finisher. Again, the requirements: big, nigh-unkillable, and with evasion. The guys they've featured are BIG, but most are not nigh-unkillable (they do not have stuff like Protections), and most also do not have Evasion (i.e. Flying).

A Control finisher nowadays instead looks more like this (This one being Standard-legal, but not Block-Legal):

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Im ... &type=card

Big (5/5), with evasion (flying), and has some prots (Prot from Dragons/Demons).

Being 8/8 isn't enough.

But seriously, in a general sort of way, 3 mana will get you a fucking Hurloon Minotaur, and 5 mana will get you a Serra Angel. If you think spending 3 mana and then 4 mana is more than spending 5 mana, I don't trust your analysis. Of things.

-Username17

Says the man who's judging the block from previews of one set. There are LOTS of good 3 mana creatures now, some of which are better than Serra. Hurloon Minotaur wasn't even competitive when it first came out. Seriously dude, shut up with the Strawman.

[Username17]

The issue, Frank, is that this block still includes Alara, which is ridiculously fast. When Alara rotates out, the game will almost assuredly slow down, but until then decks that can't deal with Jund can't deal at all.

I thought you got 3 sets in a block. The card n question is from Rise of the Eldrazi, which lives in the Zendikar Block with Zendikar and Worldwake. Unless they chaged their tournament system again while I wasn't looking, Alara Reborn would be off the table.

But basically, it appears that people are going to make 60 card decks where 30 cards are land, and several remaining cards are mana sources - at the very least those things that spawn 0/1 tokens you can sack for mana. And then you have a couple Eldrazi to go a whuppin and a whompin all over everything. If someone spends a kill card on stopping a chronologist, that's good - because he doesn't have many kill cards in hs whole deck.

-Username17

[Zinegata]

The issue, Frank, is that this block still includes Alara, which is ridiculously fast. When Alara rotates out, the game will almost assuredly slow down, but until then decks that can't deal with Jund can't deal at all.

I thought you got 3 sets in a block. The card n question is from Rise of the Eldrazi, which lives in the Zendikar Block with Zendikar and Worldwake. Unless they chaged their tournament system again while I wasn't looking, Alara Reborn would be off the table.

But basically, it appears that people are going to make 60 card decks where 30 cards are land, and several remaining cards are mana sources - at the very least those things that spawn 0/1 tokens you can sack for mana. And then you have a couple Eldrazi to go a whuppin and a whompin all over everything. If someone spends a kill card on stopping a chronologist, that's good - because he doesn't have many kill cards in hs whole deck.

-Username17

Block is block. But the more common playing format is Standard, which is generally current block, previous block, and core set. Ceilingcat is talking Standard.

[Cielingcat]

I meant Standard, yeah. My bad for using the wrong term.

[Zinegata]

(Sorry, missed this. And I might be wrong. Hope Kaelik can explain better)

Also, how does the counter-generation thingie work? The counters all have to be level counters still, so Doubling Season sounds like the only viable strategy there.

Cards don't really care where the counters are from. An "Ice Counter" from another card turns into a Level Up counter when transferred. I think the same even applies for +1/+1 counter, wherein the counter will BOTH serve as a +1/+1 bonus _and_ a level up counter (scary, I know).

This is why sick combos can be made with this card:

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_sin ... k%20Depths

And cards that move/remove all counters from a card, as explained here:

http://forum.tcgplayer.com/showthread.php?t=131033

[Morzas]

(Sorry, missed this. And I might be wrong. Hope Kaelik can explain better)

Also, how does the counter-generation thingie work? The counters all have to be level counters still, so Doubling Season sounds like the only viable strategy there.

Cards don't really care where the counters are from. An "Ice Counter" from another card turns into a Level Up counter when transferred. I think the same even applies for +1/+1 counter, wherein the counter will BOTH serve as a +1/+1 bonus _and_ a level up counter (scary, I know).

There's nothing in the comprehensive rules that states that counters work this way. This is the first I've heard of such a thing. Where did you learn this? It does not sound correct to me.

[Prak]

I don't know what you are talking about, and I suspect you don't either.

Frank, seriously, shut up with the insults. It will just make you look like an even bigger idiot in a thread where you've already argued 2 + 3 = 3.

Problem is, Frank's technically right. You're not spending 5 resources, you're spending three resources, just using two of them twice, hence, with magic, 2+3=3. You're only using 3 land cards, to produce no more than 3 mana at any given time.

[Gelare]

I feel bad for not stepping in to clear up some of the misconceptions in this thread earlier, as I've played Magic at least once in the past year, which is something it sounds like most of you haven't done. You use such current examples as Hurloon Minotaur (5th Edition? Really?) and Serra Angel (the present incarnation is Baneslayer Angel, which is what you get if you took a Serra Angel, took away vigilance, and added first strike, lifelike, and protection from dragons and demons. For the same mana cost).

@Zinegata: Your assessment of counters is totally wrong. You're maybe thinking of Giant Fan, which would be dumb because that's from Unglued, a set that has never ever been tournament-legal. The only new thing about counters that has been done recently is the fact that +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters on the same creature cancel each other out and the counters are removed on a one-for-one basis.

@Frank: No one uses Disintegrate, because it hasn't been in Standard since Time Spiral went away, which was a while ago. However, the consensus currently is that Standard is pretty darn fast, and the most popular deck is "Jund", which uses things like Bloodbraid Elf cascading into Blightning to totally fuck your shit up. While it's probably true that Rise is going to be a slower set, Standard as a whole is still going to be blisteringly fast, and doing nothing for turns 2-4 except pouring mana into Lighthouse Chronologist (at sorcery speed, which gives your opponent plenty of opportunity to doom blade your guy just before the last counter goes on and then you'll have wasted everything) is going to get your ass kicked. Because you aren't going to get to those two delicious turn fives of yours, because you'll be dead.


In casual play, draft, and variant formats of Magic, this guy is way good. In standard, he's godawful.

[Murtak]

But the total cost sunk at that point is 5 mana. Sure, that 5 mana couldn't have gotten you a Serra Angel or whatever 5 mana creatures exist nowadays, but it could have gotten you several cheaper cards. I haven't played Magic in ages, but unless design has changed considerably, more expensive cards are not better (per mana spent) than cheap cards.

So yes, if you play this card and then spend 2 and 3 mana and get bolted in response you just traded 5 for 1 mana and 1 for 1 card. That stinks, but it isn't worse than getting counterspelled or boomeranged or terrored.

That said, this sucker is still ridiculous. He may not be all that bad in most situations it he is just begging for abuse. Any token shifting card will have to take this creature into account. Deck design will be altered - it is not enough to be able to get rid of creatures or survive them - you need to be able kill it with an instant or at arbitrary toughness. And odds are you will never get to use his ability in a tournament. Yuk.

[Username17]

But the total cost sunk at that point is 5 mana. Sure, that 5 mana couldn't have gotten you a Serra Angel or whatever 5 mana creatures exist nowadays, but it could have gotten you several cheaper cards. I haven't played Magic in ages, but unless design has changed considerably, more expensive cards are not better (per mana spent) than cheap cards.

More expensive cards have always been better per mana spent than cheaper cards. Remember: a 2/2 may cost 2 mana while a 4/4 costs you 4 mana - but that 4/4 will kill a 2/2 and not die doing it - and he only cost one card.

Card cost is really big. Costing more mana is in fact a form of card cost, because each mana source is a card that you have to draw and play.

-Username17

[Zinegata]

Prak->

That's frankly stupid.

Yes, you're using a renewable resource twice, but that's ignoring the fact that you lost the opportunity to cast something else.

Again, it has no effect on overall card advantage. But the mana spent on something else still goes into overall board control. If you don't cast anything with your mana, one guy will have one or two Grizzly Bears on the board while you have none.

The assumption that it's useless to cast lower-costed spells is simply wrong. It takes time to put down creatures on the board, and that time is lost when you spend your early-game mana into something that your opponent can easily bolt/terrorize/journeyed to nowhere before it can start getting a return on your investment.

Morzas->

I said in my preamble I wasn't sure and was hoping Kaelik could clear it up. But I do recall the Dark Depths combo hence I linked a sample of creatures transferring counters to each other.

Gelare->

See above. I'm not even aware of Giant Fan.

But yes, like I've been saying, sorcery speed is bad for this guy for competitive play. I've played recently enough (Zendikar, actually, albeit I missed Worldwake's releases) to know blue should try to do its stuff in the opponent's end step .

Frank->

You clearly haven't been playing Magic in a while. More expensive creatures may generally be better than a lower-costed creature from a purely power vs toughness basis, but there are several mitigating factors:

1) Cheaper creatures come down sooner, meaning they start chipping away at an opponent's life total earlier. Drop a 2/1 soldier on turn 1, and he'd have done 8 damage total on his own (if unopposed) by the time he attacks on turn 5. In contrast, Serra would just be coming out by that turn.

Moreover, if you dropped other creatures on turn 2 and 3 and they get through unopposed, you'd be dead by turn 5 if not earlier.

2) Many lower-costed creatures have the capability to bring down bigger ones. For instance, in this block alone there is a 4/5 creature with no drawbacks with a casting cost of GGG, meaning it would actually beat a Serra Angel which costs 5.

There is also another creature that costs a mere 1BB, but has Deathtouch, Lifelink, and Flying to go with a respectable 2/3 body. Yes, it'd die fighting Serra, but he'd take her with him. Also, he can take on a vanilla 15/15 monster and STILL kill it even though he'd die in the process.

Card cost is big, but your analysis of it is extremely myopic and short-sighted. Plenty of excellent creatures now reside at lower casting costs, to the point that most vanilla big creatures frankly suck despite their higher Power and Toughness.

And we haven't even gotten started on talking about other spells yet, especially when mono-blue decks generally pack a ton of card-drawing spells at the lower casting cost slots (which you can't cast if you keep nursing the Chronologist).

[Kaelik]

Regarding Counter switching:

1) I have no idea what the present state of anything is, I played Standard like 4 years ago, and a couple Limited Decks two years ago.

Back when I did play, it was primarily Legacy.

2) There are lots of ways to counterize a card in Legacy, creature to creature token swap is one.

There is also "sacrifice X creatures, place X counters on a creature that uses counters" card which I used in combination with my squirrel deck to fuck around.

Legacy is so painfully fast that if you intend to get this guy to level whatever any turn after 4 he's just a mana sink, but yeah, In legacy, I can think of several ways to just add level counters to this card like a bitch.