Bigotry

[Crissa]

You have no proof that CeilingCat is not genetically female. Or has brainmatter like a 'normal' female of the human species. So your argument about transgenderism is not only medically incorrect, it's a bunch of hooey that was put to pasture forty years ago.

Kaelik kept mentioning 'hermaphrodite' to continue the confusion and argument against me.

No woman wants to be called a trap. No transwoman wants to be called a trap. 'Trap' is a homophobic slur. Until it isn't used as an affirmative defense in murder cases, it will always be a homophobic slur.

-Crissa

[Username17]

No. The word "gay" is still used in homophobic murder cases. So is the word "homosexual." Whether there are people who stigmatize a word or not has basically fuck all to do with whether someone somewhere self identifies with that word.

There is no universally agreed upon trans terminology. And claiming otherwise is unreasonable.

-Username17

[Crissa]

Yes. The word 'trap' is homophobic in its creation. It's entire reason for being is an affirmative defense in murder cases. 'Gay' and 'homosexual' is not.

It's basically a meme for 'OMG penis' and serves no other purpose.

There is no universally agreed upon terminology. But there are words that you don't use unless you want to be seen as bigoted. This is one of those.

-Crissa

[Username17]

Yes. The word 'trap' is homophobic in its creation. It's entire reason for being is an affirmative defense in murder cases. 'Gay' and 'homosexual' is not.

Actually, you are wrong. The word "Gay" is orignally a homophobic insult.

Homosexuals went out of their way to reclaim that word, and it pretty much worked. Some people are doing the same with the word Trap. They are not wrong to do so.

-Username17

[Koumei]

...I always thought the word trap originated, like with all things, on 4chan.

[Crissa]

No.

The word 'gay' had a positive connotation. Before it was a slur, it didn't have a negative meaning.

The word 'trap' is a negative connotation. Before it was a slur, it had a negative meaning. It still has a negative meaning.

It's not going to be reclaimed. There's no 'trap' community to reclaim it. Without the homophobia, it won't have any good meaning.

It will never escape the trap that '[EDITED]' and '[EDITED]' fell into. Those had only neutral connotations beforehand. Aside from regional differences, they'll never get out of that trap. It won't get beyond a negative connotation that is only condoned use is by those to who it would apply.

You will never have a 'trap' community because a large portion of transgendered people have no stock in being transgendered. They just want to be people, with a gender expression of their choice - which isn't 'trans' anything.

I don't care what language you use in private. I don't care what language you use in public. But if you use bigoted language, you will be seen as bigoted[/i].

I can't change what language you use here. But fbmf can.

-Crissa

...I always thought the word trap originated, like with all things, on 4chan.

Yes.

[Username17]

The word 'gay' had a positive connotation. Before it was a slur, it didn't have a negative meaning.

That's such a selective reading of history that it is effectively a lie. Yes, it had a positive connotation before it was a slur, but it also didn't refer to homosexual people at all. It just meant "happy." To the extent it referred to homosexuals at all, it was a slur. Then homosexuals took the word and used it for themselves and made it their own.

...I always thought the word trap originated, like with all things, on 4chan.

Exactly. And you know what? It's actually still incredibly obscure. Homophobic politicians aren't coming out of the woodwork to condemn "traps." Bill Donahue doesn't even know the word at all. Phelps is still out there condemning "[EDITED]" not "traps."

All of Crissa's crap about murdering transgendered people is a total smoke screen. Because the word isn't even used in that context. It's just used in internet conversation. And the 4chan community is divided as to whether "trap" is a positive or negative statement. This really is the last definition of the word "trap" on wikipedia, and it's just listed as being "internet slang" - doesn't even mention whether it is positive or negative. I mean, let's bring up the wiki entry for transwoman, which has this to say:

"Shemale",[3][4] along with "tranny",[5][6] "ladyboy" and similar terms, are often used in a derogatory manner to indicate a pre-op trans woman possessing both breasts and male genitalia.[7] Like many potentially derogatory labels (such as [EDITED] or dyke), some have adopted the terms as endearments, as forms of self-empowerment or as reclaimed words, for example San Francisco's club Trannyshack.

The word "trap" doesn't even get a listing.

I mean, Trap isn't even the first definition in this context on fucking Urban Dictionary. Their first definition of "trap" is the place you go to buy or sell drugs.

We are talking about a seriously obscure word which is not even known in most contexts and isn't well established in its connotations even in the contexts it is known at all. The word itself could get completely transformed by being used positively or negatively on an episode of How I Met Your Mother.

-Username17

[Crissa]

So it's so obscure, you'll have no reason to continue using that meaning, won't you?

It's not like the 'split' on 4chan is a split between people it applies to - it's an argument between privileged white boys.

-Crissa

[Username17]

So it's so obscure, you'll have no reason to continue using that meaning, won't you?

It's not like the 'split' on 4chan is a split between people it applies to - it's an argument between privileged white boys.

-Crissa

Fuck off. This is an internet conversation. If people want to use internet terminology on the internet, they have a right to do so.

As to whether 4channers are privileged or white or not - you have no fucking idea. That is literally a bigoted and prejudicial comment from you. 4chan is an anonymous message board, with users all over the world. It's mostly white people (but by no means exclusively men) at Project Chanology protests, but that has more to do with where Scientology Churches are than anything else.

There are 4channer women and 4channer Asians, and 4channer Asian women and I even know some of these people first hand. You are digging yourself deeper and deeper. Because you are in the wrong. You have n objective reason to not like that particular word, and trying to get people to not use it on the grounds that you don't like it is just a personal preference issue. Calling people names for refusing to pattern their speech the way you want them to is not constructive and it is not reasonable.

Dismissing the linguistic viewpoint of bisexual men as being irrelevant just because those viewpoints are not yours does not come off as reasonable in the slightest. It makes you look like an uneducated fanatic who has totally lost perspective.

Here's the perspective: The word "Trap" is used as a term for people who have penises (regardless of their gender) who look like women (either on purpose or accident), by a relatively small number of internet users. These internet users come from all walks of life, and include men and women, cisgendered and trans, American and Korean, blah blah blah. It is you, and not they who have a problem with bigotry here. You are the one who made prejudicial comments here.

And yes, I actually know, in real life, an actual 4channer who is an actual transwoman who underwent actual transition and actually referred to herself as a trap. So kindly: fuck off.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

And yes, I actually know, in real life, an actual 4channer who is an actual transwoman who underwent actual transition and actually referred to herself as a trap.

You know, you're about a few keystrokes away from wondering why you don't get N-word or F-word (as in the gay type) privileges Frank.

Because the words do not have consistent meaning.

The idea behind it is consistent, since trap has an ugly undertone of suggesting that feminine-looking people with a penis are pathetic / unaware / deceptive / gay-recruiting.

[Username17]

First off, I do get [EDITED] privileges, because I am in Europe. Here in Europe, "[EDITED]" means cigarette, and people say it constantly without meaning or causing any offense. "Could you kill that [EDITED]?" means "please stop blowing smoke in my face." It's a different world.

The idea behind it is consistent, since trap has an ugly undertone of suggesting that feminine-looking people with a penis are pathetic / unaware / deceptive / gay-recruiting.

That's debatable. And in fact, is even now being debated. The bottom line however is that outside the 4channer subculture and the parts of the internet and real life that 4chan touches upon, the word "trap" doesn't mean anything related to gender at all. And within that subculture it is a word used by transvestites and transsexuals to refer to themselves.

You're welcome to attack it on the grounds that it's a 4chan meme and you don't want 4chan getting up in your grill. But don't even pretend to have any in road or secret information as regards the true meaning of Christmas. A word by 4channers for 4channers is best explained by 4channers themselves. The homophobic ones respond negatively to the word trap and the transgendered ones use the word. Which means that... it's just a fucking word.

And if you don't like it, that's fine. But if you tell people to censor themselves because you don't like it? Then fuck you.

-Username17

[virgil]

Man, I wish I was more of a jerk, because that way I could find this thread hysterical rather than kind of uncomfortable with some of the intensity.

The idea behind it is consistent, since trap has an ugly undertone of suggesting that feminine-looking people with a penis are pathetic / unaware / deceptive / gay-recruiting.

I always saw it with a mocking undertone towards homophobes. Granted, my experience with the word is limited at best and I largely don't talk about gender/sex so the 'opportunity' to use any of the language (properly or not) hasn't come up for me.

While it's context sensitive, with RL history I've picked up in Hawaii, I know I'd be fairly offended if I was called a 'haole'; and I'm hoping there isn't a underlying assumption that "if it's against white males it can't be bigoted".

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I think if anyone asks me again to get into a flame war with Crissa, I'm going to point at this thread as to my reasons why I won't.

[Meikle641]

Man, I wish I was more of a jerk, because that way I could find this thread hysterical rather than kind of uncomfortable with some of the intensity.

Well, I know I've found the saga amusing to varying degrees.

[Jilocasin]

Man, I wish I was more of a jerk, because that way I could find this thread hysterical rather than kind of uncomfortable with some of the intensity.

Well, I know I've found the saga amusing to varying degrees.

Hrm, I'm finding Frank's argument to be more compelling, particularly the part about how the connotations are debatable (and debated) even within the small subset of people who know what trap in this context even means, but on the whole the entire back-and-forth feels to me more like an annoying buzz in the ear.

[violence in the media]

Man, I wish I was more of a jerk, because that way I could find this thread hysterical rather than kind of uncomfortable with some of the intensity.

Thie whole ongoing thing has been...something. I do hope ceilingcat hasn't been run off for good though, as that wouldn't be cool.

While it's context sensitive, with RL history I've picked up in Hawaii, I know I'd be fairly offended if I was called a 'haole'; and I'm hoping there isn't a underlying assumption that "if it's against white males it can't be bigoted".

I don't know that I could actually get offended by haole. At least not moreso than I would be based on the attitude of the person I'd be in conflict with. I used to work with a guy that would get incredibly offended (he said it was a "fightin' word") if someone called him a "punk", as he universally went to the prison-bitch meaning. I just can't imagine having a "trigger word" like that. I mean, if the issue is disrespect, why would a particular word set you off--as opposed to the same level of disrespect phrased another way? Are these words used as some sort of bizarre justification for violence?

"I had to stab him officer, he called me a [EDITED]."
"Oh, well in that case, you're free to go ma'am."

WTF? Is that the thought process?

[Username17]

The etymology of "Trap" in this instance doesn't even have anything to do with perceived weakness or deficiency in gay people. It has to do with a squid puppet involved in a space battle. Seriously.

In Return of the Jedi, Admiral Akbar says "It's a trap!" and for some reason, a lot of 4channers think this is super funny. So they started saying "It's a trap!" all the time. And then they started putting the words "IT'S A TRAP!" on stuff. Generally speaking, things that looked like other things. So, you might have a picture of a gun, and then a picture of the same "gun" being used as a lighter - with the caption "IT'S A TRAP!" Which doesn't mean anything at all, because it's a 4chan meme, and it isn't even supposed to mean anything.

So naturally, when you're talking about things that look like other things, you eventually come to ladies with penises. Because it's 4chan. And 4chan sooner or later puts a penis on everything. And since transvestites are something that 4channers like to get pictures of anyway, that basically took over the whole meme. Chicks with dicks. Looks like one thing, but it's another thing. It's a Trap! Yeah, that's really as far down as the rabbit hole goes.



Which gets us to the heart of the matter: Crissa doesn't have a leg to stand on with any of her complaints. Her actual complaint would be that gender identity is "serious business" and that it's not OK to throw flippant 4chan memes into such a discussion. Personally, I vehemently disagree. I think that dismissive 4chan memes are exactly the right response to things being taken seriously enough that people get into fights and contemplate suicide.

Comedy. Even, nay especially non sequitur comedy is a wonderful way to defuse conflicts. If anyone actually was concerned about people being killed by homophobes, they would welcome the "person with dick can be a sexy lady, It's A Trap!" discussion into regular conversation. Hell, we should straight up have transvestites showing their junk on regular TV. Once that shit gets normalized, no one would be Mathew Shepparded again.

I can tell that Crissa's heart is in the right place trying to fight for the rights of transgendered people, but she isn't helping. Her facts are wrong, her tactics are bad, and lashing out at minor multinational organizations for not "understanding" because they are "all white" (which they are not) and "all male" (which they also are not), is just a way to get marginalized even more. Crissa is wrong, and she should suck it up.

-Username17

[Crissa]

My facts aren't wrong.

Before it was a slur, it didn't have a negative meaning.

It just meant "happy." To the extent it referred to homosexuals at all, it was a slur.

Frank isn't even bothering to contradict me, and yet he says I'm wrong.

I'm not the one arguing for the right to make this board uncomfortable to a specific person.

-Crissa

[Nicklance]

She might find 'suck it up' to be offensive too sir.

[violence in the media]

She might find 'suck it up' to be offensive too sir.

How? To the best of my knowledge, "suck it up" doesn't involve penises or the vacuum compression thereof.

[Kaelik]

I'm not the one arguing for the right to make this board uncomfortable to a specific person.

This board is regularly uncomfortable for me as a specific person. This is even often because people go out of their way to throw vicious insults at me like "sexist" or "racist."

But I don't think those people who do those things should be prevented from doing that, just called idiots every time they do.

On the other hand, your concern is that specific people get upset when people of indeterminate gender use terms for people of indeterminate gender that they don't find offensive, but that other people of indeterminate gender do. And that this constitutes enough of a problem that you go around demanding that people stop using those words.

Tough luck, every specific person on this forum will be uncomfortable sometimes. That's going to happen.

It's going to happen even more when you have incredibly thin skin and consider any possible reference to a quality you possess an insult/slur.

Why is Ceiling Cat's transgenderism more important than any other issue Crissa?

Frankly, I am deeply and personally offended by accusations of sexism and racism, but you consider those accusations tiny unimportant things that you can throw around willy nilly and not even worth fact checking yourself before you start accusing.

But should anyone use the word trap, you are all over that shit, because even casually mentioning it in a non derogatory context so grievously offends Ceiling Cat that is must be stopped.

Ceiling Cat has not had to deal with any fallout on this board for people using transgender words to describe transgender people. It took less than a page after you accused me of sexism before PL was all up in arms about how I probably defended rapists.

Yes, throwing around pointless and wrong insults has consequences. But funny story, you are the only one doing that. No one else is insulting anyone based on gender, or orientation, or race. But you are. You insult whites (and other races who you don't know because they haven't said anything) for being bigots who can't understand, you insult males (and females and transgenders who disagree with you, because you don't ask) for being assholes who are always being meanly sexist, and you insult straight people (and gay people and bi people who you don't know are gay and bi because you indiscriminately cry bigot at everyone you disagree with) who disagree with you about anything as being evil bastard homophobes who use trap to mean "I'm going to murder that darn queer."

[Kaelik]

She might find 'suck it up' to be offensive too sir.

How? To the best of my knowledge, "suck it up" doesn't involve penises or the vacuum compression thereof.

But you see, it derives from vacuum cleaners, and women were the only ones that used them in the 50s, so by saying "suck it up" Frank could only possibly mean that Crissa has to shut up, because she is a woman, and her place is vacuuming and cleaning house, not talking and having opinions.

See how easy this is?

[Orion]

Frank, the history of the word trap notwithstanding, a fairly substantial number of us-- Cielingcat, Crissa, and myself, have a strong negative reaction to it. It has a history of being used as a slur ON THIS BOARD when Roy flipped out on Cielingcat, which is more relevant as far as I'm concerned than its origins on 4Chan.

I'm not saying that trap is a slur in all contexts or communities, or that 4Channers are bad people for using it in their communities. But I don't want it on this board. Sure, everyone speaks a different language with different slang, but it IS entirely reasonable for a community, like this message board, to define community standards as to what language is and isn't acceptable. Belligerently insisting on using a word known to offend a substantial number of posters (me, crissa, PL, cielingcat, and more), is bad behavior NO MATTER what the word happens to be or how it's understood by other communities.

[Kaelik]

Frank, the history of the word trap notwithstanding, a fairly substantial number of us-- Cielingcat, Crissa, and myself, have a strong negative reaction to it. It has a history of being used as a slur ON THIS BOARD when Roy flipped out on Cielingcat, which is more relevant as far as I'm concerned than its origins on 4Chan.

I'm not saying that trap is a slur in all contexts or communities, or that 4Channers are bad people for using it in their communities. But I don't want it on this board. Sure, everyone speaks a different language with different slang, but it IS entirely reasonable for a community, like this message board, to define community standards as to what language is and isn't acceptable. Belligerently insisting on using a word known to offend a substantial number of posters (me, crissa, PL, cielingcat, and more), is bad behavior NO MATTER what the word happens to be or how it's understood by other communities.

Yes, you have a click. Congratulations.

Yes, Phone Lobster Ceiling Cat and Crissa are team take offense.

Yes, you personally are so easily subject to their influence that you made a post that was basically "Oops, turns out that Kaelik was totally right and he never said anything sexist at all and had perfectly good reason to call Ceiling Cat "he" because no one ever asked for anything else.

But I'm still putting him on ignore because he defended himself against charges of sexism meanly."

Great. You have a click.

So when Uber, Zinegatta, Myself, and Frank all say that the word "the" is offensive to us, are you going to censor yourself of that word?

Or are you going to call bullshit that people with an obvious point to prove and an obvious "side" of the debate are all ganging up to declare a perfectly harmless word offensive to save face/prove a point?

Please let me know what the magic number is so that I can draft Maj into "Team declare everything Crissa ever says offensive." so we can get her to stop posting.

Heck, I'll settle for Team "Calling something offensive is offensive to me" it's almost but not quite the same thing, since it's only about 3/4ths of her posts that she calls people bigots for saying words she doesn't like.

[Orion]

The first time I ever heard the word trap to refer to a transvestite or transsexual was when Roy used it as a personal attack on Cielingcat. Consequently, people who use it remind me of Roy. If you want my respect, you won't use it.

Your accusations that I am somehow taking my cues from Crissa or PL are misguided. I often post after them because I'm less quick to jump into the fray here, but I only post what I've been thinking silently all along. I'm not part of some clique with Crissa and PL. I actually can't stand Crissa and find Pl only intermittently lucid.

Now, I'm not saying exactly the same thing they are. I took issue with Frank's claim that it's unreasonable to ask someone not to use a word--I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask someone not to use a word. If you continue using a word that offends the a community that makes you RUDE, not necessarily a BIGOT. I didn't make any formal accusations of bigotry.

If I were to make a claim that Prak is a bigot, I wouldn't do it by asserting that the word "trap" is inherently bigoted. I'd do it by asserting that his demonstrated disregard for Cielingcat's feelings is evidence of a general callousness towards trans people. I'm not actually convinced that that's the case. I think he's probably equally callous towards people of every identity. But that makes him an asshole.

I have no idea whether you're a bigot, Kaelik, but if your *defense* is claim to be an asshole... I don't know why you bother. I care more about who is rude and disruptive to community standards than who has prejudice in their soul.