Same-Game Testing: Rogue v. Factotum

[Ferret]

Flask rogues: how do you carry enough flasks to be meaningful in combat, and ready them in a fashion that allows you to get more than two rounds of combat without wasting a round diving into your pack for more flasks?

How do you resupply in the field? Craft:Alchemy and a lenient DM?

[Kaelik]

Why the fuck do people say Factorum even when the fucking thread title has it spelled correctly?

[Lago PARANOIA]

What the fuck is this logic? So could a Fighter (or to keep it topical a Factotum) max his UMD, buy and use a shit-ton of scrolls and expect the DM to give them extra loot to cover their expenses?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but basically, yes. That's how it's supposed to work with WBL.

It's a dumb system, but no less dumb than 4E's system where those three potions you drank 3 levels ago are going to hurt you for the rest of your life.

If you want to blame something, either blame 'permanent' magical items for being overpriced, blame 'temporary' magical items for being underpriced, or blame 'temporary' magical items like scrolls and wands being too powerful because they're tied to the spellcasting system.

[Lago PARANOIA]

If we were playing 3.0E this wouldn't even be a problem. If you wanted to do sick amounts of damage as a ranged character without having your mojo nerfed by the whims of the plot you'd be a fighter archer. If you didn't want to be a cleric archer, that is. Fighter archers outdamage all and any type of rogues at higher levels except for those who convinced the DM into letting them take Perfect Multiweapon Fighting.

Good thing 3.5E came out, right?

[RobbyPants]

Why the fuck do people say Factorum even when the fucking thread title has it spelled correctly?

Because I must be retarded and/or dyslexic. Probably retarded, as there was no letter reversal. Seriously, I just now caught that.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Because Factorum sounds a lot like Santorum. Freudian word association, I thinks!

[Juton]

3) Will you address the point that the rogue is not using very much money at all, like 60gp for a fight that gets you several hundred.

In the name intellectual honesty, I calculated how much gp it would take for a flask rogue to function per level. This assumes you fight ten CR equal enemies per level, each acid flask costs 10 gp. I also assumed the Rogue always gets sneak attack damage on every flask (which may or may not be a big assumption). The values listed are in gold pieces.

1 :264.53
2 :414.65
3 :335.21
4 :523.46
5 :436.16
6 :519.70
7 :523.19
8 :580.33
9 :654.89
10:684.36

So at level one each enemy will take 2.6453 flasks to kill, you fight 10 of these enemies and pay the cost for each flask. I got the average HP and touch AC per CR from http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... he_Numbers

Without taking into account other accoutrements the flask rogue works by WBL, even if you don't use the retarded interpretation.

[Kaelik]

Yeah, you can arguably get a lot more SA per strike and get it untyped with a few sources, so that Acid flasks just do -1d6 damage against acid immunes, and you use fewer flasks in general.

If you can't get SA you just don't attack, because that's just a waste of everyone's time. Maybe you throw nets instead.

[Murtak]

What the fuck is this logic? So could a Fighter (or to keep it topical a Factotum) max his UMD, buy and use a shit-ton of scrolls and expect the DM to give them extra loot to cover their expenses? Do you actually demand your DM alter an adventure to give you more money if you burn through items like it's going out of style?

No, I don't expect it. I do expect some sort of consistency. By RAW, you are supposed to have x amount of valuables at y level. If you spend cash on booze, use potions like an addict, your equipment gets sundered or throw more flasks than Molotov could ream of your DM is supposed to make up the difference. Personally I think this is retarded.

You could of course use tome-style wealth, in which case flasks are free quite early on in an adventurer's career. You could ignore wealth-by-level guidelines and just go by what treasure tables and crafting rules give you - in which case flasks are essentially free the second one party member decides to make money. And then again you could just arbitrarily tell the rogue to fuck off, you don't care about WBL and there is nothing for sale anyway - in which case crafting rules or creation spells come into play.

Basically flasks are cheap enough and easy enough to create that players can get them, even in large numbers. However you set up your wealth system, unless you specifically screw flasks, they are going to be plentiful.

If WBL worked like this (hint: it doesn't)

Hint: it does. Retarded, but true. Extra special hint: using "hint:" makes you look like an arrogant prick. At least be correct when you do so.

then why are we even talking about about a flask rogue when scroll of glitterdust+sneak attack works so well?

Huh? Spending one turn to cast a spell that is likely to be resisted only to then get to spend another turn to move into position to then attack during the third turn "works well"? Compared to making ranged touch attacks on turn 1 and getting to profit from rapid shot to boot? As far as I can tell Glitterdust from a scroll is good to outline invisible creatures and for nothing else.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I'm not even sure why this is a problem at higher levels.

At higher levels a rogue will still do more damage sneak attacking 'normally' (i.e. in melee) with expected bonuses and whatnot from weapon sources if you plunder a bunch of books for things and do the GMW dance.

At a small band in the lower levels (2-5 about) it's very slightly overpowered compared to what the rest of the party can do, but by level 11 or so you're better off tracking down damage bonuses and getting into melee if that's all you care about.

I consider it a cool pet trick and not particularly overpowered. 3.0E Fighter Archers laughed their asses off at that kind of damage an acid-flask rogue would bring to the table after level 6 and no one considered those guys overpowered. Except for that rat-bastard Andy Collins. But that's another story.

[PhaedrusXY]

Flask rogues: how do you carry enough flasks to be meaningful in combat, and ready them in a fashion that allows you to get more than two rounds of combat without wasting a round diving into your pack for more flasks?

How do you resupply in the field? Craft:Alchemy and a lenient DM?

How many rounds do most of the combats in your games last? They're often over in two rounds, in my experience. Unless there is a lot of hide-and-seek stuff going on, in which case you're probably not making full attacks every round.

There is a potion belt in the FR book that lets you stick up to 10 potions or flasks in it, and draw them as free actions. Since this is a mundane item, you should be able to wear like three of them (one on the waist, two bandoleer style). That should be enough flasks for pretty much any combat...

Also: The Handy Haversack can hold a lot of flasks... So restocking in the field shouldn't be a problem.

[For Valor]

So the factotum gets 8 different level 7 spells that he can use as SLAs at level 20, and then can heal a little, gets IntMod to Initiative, finds traps, and can use the Extraordinary abilities of a couple classes.

I see that standing up to the rogue in a combat where both are refreshed and the factotum picked appropriate rogue-bashing spells. However, the rogue will outlast the factotum while keeping up a constant level of usefulness.

The factotum also gets worse at higher levels a lot faster and more drastically than the rogue does. So I see why the rogue is considered better than the factotum.

But does the rogue really pull 50/50 on the SGT? I mean, it sounds like the halfling hurler/TWF rogue are the only builds that can do 50/50.

[Danchild]

Making a statements about magical items is a not contributing to a comparison. I will leave player expectations and DM fiat alone for now.

You may as well say that the monk is better than a rogue because they can spam beads of force. Or CC spam a metamagic reduced wand of Summon Natures Ally 8.

[Kaelik]

Making a statements about magical items is a not contributing to a comparison. I will leave player expectations and DM fiat alone for now.

You may as well say that the monk is better than a rogue because they can spam beads of force. Or CC spam a metamagic reduced wand of Summon Natures Ally 8.

No, saying that a Rogue spends about as much throwing Acid Flasks from levels 1-9 as the level 8 Barbarian does on one night binge drinking in Sigil is saying that the rogue is not demanding much of anything.

[Username17]

Is a Factorum using Iajutsu Focus and a quickrazor considered more TO than a rogue using flasks and upping his number of attacks considerably? I mean that as a serious (albeit subjective) question. One solid advantage in the flask rogue's favor is it can be pulled off with just Core books.

Everywhere except JaronK's mind? Yes. I've personally DMed for a flask rogue and played a flask rogue. It's a core fucking option. Factotums using Iajitsu Focus is illegal in all games. It requires class from an obscure setting book, and a skill from a different and incompatible setting from a different edition of the game!

Factotums don't even do anything special with Iajitsu Focus. Having "all skills as class skills" and applying it is just a +5 bonus to Focus checks at 7th level. A Rogue can actually pull that trick off better, with flasks. And more legitimately, because the class actually exists in the setting the Iajitsu Focus is from.

That being said, if the DM doesn't seriously nerf UMD, it looks like it's much easier to roll a competent rogue than a competent factorum. Every factorum build I've ever seen written always relies on a skill from a themed 3.0 book, a feat from Dragon Mag, and an exotic racial weapon. If nothing else, that likely fails at many DM's too-many-obscure-sources test.

Or uses the Chameleon Tjeese (albeit less effectively than an actual Chameleon). No one actually lets people dumpster dive bullshit spell lists. As soon as an Artificer starts asking to prepare wands off the Blighter list, he is going to get shut down. The Factotum's position is even worse, because his class is obvious incomprehensible bullshit before it even starts doing things.

The only legitimate super power a Factotum can rely upon is one actually in their description. And that limits them to exactly one: they can (at high level) spend all their feats on getting more of their bullshit points and cash them out in one battle a day for a fuck tonne of extra actions and then personally win one combat a day at super speed. They can actually do that. I have no idea how they are supposed to compete before that.

Interestingly, to get things onto the original discussion a bit: Factotums have a 100% win rate in the CR 15 SGT. They have high perception stuff going on and don't get surprised. Then in one battle per day they take like 6 rounds of actions on the first round. That makes them win. They get the stuffing pounded out of them in the 5th and 10th level, and they have no staying power. But people who can cash out for one nova a day (and the Factotum Nova is quite a nova at high level) really distort the Same Game Test.

-Username17

[RobbyPants]

I could be wrong (I've never played a factotum), but I thought Inspiration Points came back per encounter, not per day.

That being said, you're still right that it's a high level trick, and to really pull it off you need Font of Inspiration, which I thought was in Dragon Mag, or something.

[NineInchNall]

The only legitimate super power a Factotum can rely upon is one actually in their description. And that limits them to exactly one: they can (at high level) spend all their feats on getting more of their bullshit points and cash them out in one battle a day for a fuck tonne of extra actions and then personally win one combat a day at super speed. They can actually do that. I have no idea how they are supposed to compete before that.

The typical interpretation of the inspiration point mechanic that I've seen is that the points reset to full at the beginning of every encounter. So for most of the people I've seen using the class, the Factotum Nova is an "every encounter" kind of thing.

But even using the "once per day" interpretation doesn't really change things much beyond making the class epitomize the 5-minute workday.

That being said, you're still right that it's a high level trick, and to really pull it off you need Font of Inspiration, which I thought was in Dragon Mag, or something.

Web content, actually.

[Meikle641]

Inspiration Points are per-encounter, but the action novaing he describes is likely limited x/day.

EDIT: Wait a second, are we talking about "Cunning Surge"? If so, a standard action costs 3 IP, can be used as many times as you have IP and is at 8th level. Presumably the factotum has 6+ IP thanks to their feat, so they can do it like, at least two times.

I don't know how good that treats them at lvl 10's SGT, but yeah. Or maybe I'm just realising this all late, haha.

[NineInchNall]

I think he's actually referring to fact that the awkward wording in the class write-up can make things ambiguous if you're being strictly literal in your reading of it.

[RobbyPants]

Ahh, okay. I'm going to have to re-read that class now. Having never played one, I read it once a while ago, and never gave it a serious look over since. So I was right about the IP recovery, but it makes sense that some of the other mechanics are more limited.

Thanks for the clarification.

[ubernoob]

Every factorum build I've ever seen written always relies on a skill from a themed 3.0 book, a feat from Dragon Mag, and an exotic racial weapon. If nothing else, that likely fails at many DM's too-many-obscure-sources test.

This is why Factotum is a shitty class. If you can get those sources allowed, they *also* power up the rogue to do the exact same trick. Except, they get sneak attack on top. Remember, IF REQUIRES the opponent to be flatfooted. The factotum gets +level on his check 1/day and other than that has +half level or so in extra ranks if he's putting all his ranks in it (and he has fewer skill points than the rogue to boot). So, for every +5 ranks advantage (average of 1d6 extra damage) the rogue is getting +5d6 sneak attack damage.

Yes, a rogue does the Iajutsu shit better than factotum. The only reason I've never built a rogue around it is because rogues can just pick up some flasks and go on their merry way without getting ten thousand books approved by the DM.

Yes, a rogue deals damage better than a factotum no matter what sources you have allowed because the rogue benefits from all the same sources that the factotum benefits from.

Yes, factotum is also a really shitty spellcaster. We don't care.

Yes, factotum get like 2 extra standard actions to do useless things at 20th level in the base book or 6 with the web feat and burning ALL of his feats on it. Again, I don't care because factotum still can't *do* anything with those actions.

Factotum DOES get int to initiative. That makes it a pretty sexy 3 level dip.

[Danchild]

The factotum is a shitty spellcaster with a floating feat. Item creation. That brings a lot more to the party than rogue.

As for the flask rogue who gives a fuck? It may as well be the flask ninja, the flask scout or the flask spellthief. If your gonna spam alchemical items, you may as well play a wizard and shrink item/telekenisis. Fuck, the factotum can use the same tactic at a higher level and not be commited to that particular build.

Making a pronouncement that the rogue is somehow better because it is core is a null argument when comparing it to a non-core class.

[Red_Rob]

The factotum is a shitty spellcaster with a floating feat. Item creation. That brings a lot more to the party than rogue.

As for the flask rogue who gives a fuck? It may as well be the flask ninja, the flask scout or the flask spellthief. If your gonna spam alchemical items, you may as well play a wizard and shrink item/telekenisis. Fuck, the factotum can use the same tactic at a higher level and not be commited to that particular build.

Making a pronouncement that the rogue is somehow better because it is core is a null argument when comparing it to a non-core class.

The rogue brings the most sneak attack to the party. When you are flinging 4 flasks a round the extra d6 or two adds up fast.

And the argument wasn't "non-core sucks lolz" it was "using rules from more than 3 splat books is asking for the DM to ban your character" and particularly "using abilities from several different setting books in one game is normally disallowed".

However, I would accept the argument "using an ability meant to represent precision with a splash weapon won't fly with a lot of GM's".

[CatharzGodfoot]

However, I would accept the argument "using an ability meant to represent precision with a splash weapon won't fly with a lot of GM's".

Then you ask them if they'd rather have their hair set on fire or their eyes set on fire.

[Danchild]

Damage is not greater than versatility. Options are power. Factotum has more options than rogue.

The whole "I can sneak attack all day" argument is made of fail. It reminds me of the old Fighter vs Wizard argument.

"B-but that fighter can swing a sword all day! The Wizard has to prepare..."

Never mind the resources involved. Anything immune to critical hits is going to ignore those few extra d6's. Anything incoporeal is going to ignore missiles flying through it. Anything that can fly or teleport can easily stay out the rogue's range of efficacy. Anything with concealment is immune to sneak attack. Claiming that the one strength of the rogue functions all the time is a fucking lie.

The factotum can have tools for a variety of occasions. Never mind that they are shitty tools. Never mind there are shitty conditions on those shitty tools. The same can not be said of the rogue. The proponents of rogue in this debate keep relying on the fact that rogues can deal conditional damage, that somehow that makes the rogue more versatile than the factotum. That is not a strength. It is a major limitation.