Elminster must die
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Lago PARANOIA
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Kender and Tinker Gnomes are kind of dumb, but they're not dealbreakers for me.
Gully dwarves really are that bad, though. They will make you feel dirty to have read the whole thing. Like, physically unclean. In a way that reading about Elminster pulling his pud to lesbian elves won't.
Gully dwarves really are that bad, though. They will make you feel dirty to have read the whole thing. Like, physically unclean. In a way that reading about Elminster pulling his pud to lesbian elves won't.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Silent Wayfarer
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Lago PARANOIA
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Imagine Uncle Tom. He's a good base template for this thought exercise. Now imagine him with disgusting pustules and open sores so bad that even normally polite people comment about it to his face. Now reduce Uncle Tom's IQ by 30 points. Now remove all of Uncle Tom's good qualities like his piety, his selflessness, and his courage despite being in a shitty situation. Now make Uncle Tom tiny and fat. This is pretty much a gully dwarf in a nutshell.
Got that? Now imagine an entire race of people like that, played mostly for cringes and laughs. Now keep in mind that this isn't some commentary on how backwards the attitudes of the protagonists are (unlike stuff with regular dwarves, minotaurs, and the elf variants), you are supposed to find them as disgusting as the characters are.
Yeah.
Got that? Now imagine an entire race of people like that, played mostly for cringes and laughs. Now keep in mind that this isn't some commentary on how backwards the attitudes of the protagonists are (unlike stuff with regular dwarves, minotaurs, and the elf variants), you are supposed to find them as disgusting as the characters are.
Yeah.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Silent Wayfarer
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CatharzGodfoot
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Sort version of Lago's post: Google "Gullah". Yes, that's really where "gully" came from.Silent Wayfarer wrote:...so they're basically idiot annoying lepers as a race?
Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
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Lago PARANOIA
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Actually, you know what? I have the 3.0E Dragonlance Campaign Setting on me. I can just copy stuff from the book onto here.
This way you can see that I'm not exaggerating even a little bit. Here are some choice excerpts:
This way you can see that I'm not exaggerating even a little bit. Here are some choice excerpts:
The Aghar ("Anguished"), or gully dwarves as most races call them, are a misbegotten race of tough surviors. Though gully dwarves themseles have an extensive oral tradition (they love telling stories0 no two gully dwarf clans ever agree on the exact details of their origins or history. The commonly accepted tale of how gully dwarves came to be found within the annals of Astinus's Iconochronos. According to the Iconochronos, gully dwarves are the result of breeding between gnomes and dwarves following the transformation of the gnomes by the Graygem of Gargath. the gnome-dwarf half-breeds appeared to inherit the worst qualities of both races. The unfortunate half-breeds were driven out of their clans. Humans later christened them "gully dwarves", reflecting their lowly status and poor living conditions.
PERSONALITY: The following aspects to a gully dwarf's personality sum p the entire race: keen survival instict, a strong (if baffling) pride in themselves, unflagging endurance, a pitiable aspect, a desperate will to live, and low cunning and lower intelligence. The cornerstone of gully dwarf existence is simple survial. Gully dwarves do whatever it takes to stay alive. When danger threatens, their first thought is to run if possible, and grovel and cry piteously if not. Gully dwarves are not completely helpless, however. If backed into a corner, gully dwarves fight viciously, with the desperate fury of a cornered rat. Gully dwarves resort to any tactics to survive: biting, gnawing, scratching, and pummeling. "Fighting dirty" is the only way a gully dwarf knows how to fight.
Gully dwarf stupidity is legendary throughout Ansalon. The gully dwarf numbering system includes the numerals "one", to indicate a single thing, and "two", indicating more than one.
Despite the image other races hold of them, gully dwarves are extremely proud and act with great seriousness. Survival isn't a joke, and no other race comes close to possessing the raw talent for survival possessed by the gully dwares.
PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: Gully dwarves are short and squat, averaging fewer than 4 feet in height and weighing around 100 pounds, with females slightly smaller than males. Gully dwarves are physically much like other dwarves, though they are often coered with scars, boils, warts, sores, and filth due to their living conditions. Skin tone ranges from olie brown to pale cream to dirty gray brown. Mottled and splotched skin is not uncommon. Males grow long, scruffy beards, while females have whispy tufts of hair gracing their cheekbones. Hair color is dirty blond or brown, rust, gray, or a dull-black, while eye colors range from a watery blue and dull green through brown or hazel. Less heavy and stocky than typical dwarves, gully dwarves have slender, narrow fingers and limbs. Potbellies are common to both sexes. Gully dwarves dress in whatever comes to hand, with no regard to whether or not the item was originally intended for such apparel.
RELIGION: Gluly dwarves believe they hae been abandoned by Reorx, the patron deity of all dwares and gnomes. To fill the oid left by Reorx's abandonment, gully dwarves appeal to the spirits of departed ancestors to protect them from harm and ensure their surival. Aghar believe that inanimate objects can be imbued with power from ancestral spirits, and the possession of such items is said to grand the spirits' power to the owner. A dead lizard, for example, may have wondrous healing properie (at least to the gully dwarves). Other races interpret this belief as more proof of Aghar stupidity.
Gully dwarf characters possess the following racial traits instead of the normal dwarven abilities and traits:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma. Gully dwarves are surprisingly nimble and can thrie under conditions that would kill others. Their survival instincts enable them to prosper in dangerous regions. They are sadly lacking in both intellect and social graces. If you are randomly generating your character's ability scores, an ability score reduced to 2 or less by racial modifiers is instead gien a value of 3.
...
Pitiable: Gully dwarf diplomacy consists of flattery, begging, crying, cringing, and pleading. They've honed this ability to a fine art. Gully dwarves receie a +4 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks used to convince an enemy not to harm them.
...
Cowardly: Gully dwarves are extremely suspectible to Intimidation and fear effects. They suffer a -4 penalty on level checks to resist Intimidation checks made against them and on saving throws against fear effects.
PERSONALITY: The following aspects to a gully dwarf's personality sum p the entire race: keen survival instict, a strong (if baffling) pride in themselves, unflagging endurance, a pitiable aspect, a desperate will to live, and low cunning and lower intelligence. The cornerstone of gully dwarf existence is simple survial. Gully dwarves do whatever it takes to stay alive. When danger threatens, their first thought is to run if possible, and grovel and cry piteously if not. Gully dwarves are not completely helpless, however. If backed into a corner, gully dwarves fight viciously, with the desperate fury of a cornered rat. Gully dwarves resort to any tactics to survive: biting, gnawing, scratching, and pummeling. "Fighting dirty" is the only way a gully dwarf knows how to fight.
Gully dwarf stupidity is legendary throughout Ansalon. The gully dwarf numbering system includes the numerals "one", to indicate a single thing, and "two", indicating more than one.
Despite the image other races hold of them, gully dwarves are extremely proud and act with great seriousness. Survival isn't a joke, and no other race comes close to possessing the raw talent for survival possessed by the gully dwares.
PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: Gully dwarves are short and squat, averaging fewer than 4 feet in height and weighing around 100 pounds, with females slightly smaller than males. Gully dwarves are physically much like other dwarves, though they are often coered with scars, boils, warts, sores, and filth due to their living conditions. Skin tone ranges from olie brown to pale cream to dirty gray brown. Mottled and splotched skin is not uncommon. Males grow long, scruffy beards, while females have whispy tufts of hair gracing their cheekbones. Hair color is dirty blond or brown, rust, gray, or a dull-black, while eye colors range from a watery blue and dull green through brown or hazel. Less heavy and stocky than typical dwarves, gully dwarves have slender, narrow fingers and limbs. Potbellies are common to both sexes. Gully dwarves dress in whatever comes to hand, with no regard to whether or not the item was originally intended for such apparel.
RELIGION: Gluly dwarves believe they hae been abandoned by Reorx, the patron deity of all dwares and gnomes. To fill the oid left by Reorx's abandonment, gully dwarves appeal to the spirits of departed ancestors to protect them from harm and ensure their surival. Aghar believe that inanimate objects can be imbued with power from ancestral spirits, and the possession of such items is said to grand the spirits' power to the owner. A dead lizard, for example, may have wondrous healing properie (at least to the gully dwarves). Other races interpret this belief as more proof of Aghar stupidity.
Gully dwarf characters possess the following racial traits instead of the normal dwarven abilities and traits:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma. Gully dwarves are surprisingly nimble and can thrie under conditions that would kill others. Their survival instincts enable them to prosper in dangerous regions. They are sadly lacking in both intellect and social graces. If you are randomly generating your character's ability scores, an ability score reduced to 2 or less by racial modifiers is instead gien a value of 3.
...
Pitiable: Gully dwarf diplomacy consists of flattery, begging, crying, cringing, and pleading. They've honed this ability to a fine art. Gully dwarves receie a +4 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks used to convince an enemy not to harm them.
...
Cowardly: Gully dwarves are extremely suspectible to Intimidation and fear effects. They suffer a -4 penalty on level checks to resist Intimidation checks made against them and on saving throws against fear effects.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
DL was a clusterfuck of tired BS stereotypes.
It's team of unlikely heroes were just a little too fucking unlikely.
You have:
Blowhard McDwarf
Mopey McHalf-Elf
Nazinger McPaladin
Shit-For-Brains McFighter
Cuts-Up-Tiny-Animals McEvilWizard
Hyper McTinyPerson
etc.
Seriously, what the fuck were those jokers doing in eachothers company anyway?
They have nothing in common, they don't like each other, they don't even agree about saving the world from grimdarkness.
It's supposedly based on some asshats private railroad campaign and it fucking reads that way too.
It's team of unlikely heroes were just a little too fucking unlikely.
You have:
Blowhard McDwarf
Mopey McHalf-Elf
Nazinger McPaladin
Shit-For-Brains McFighter
Cuts-Up-Tiny-Animals McEvilWizard
Hyper McTinyPerson
etc.
Seriously, what the fuck were those jokers doing in eachothers company anyway?
They have nothing in common, they don't like each other, they don't even agree about saving the world from grimdarkness.
It's supposedly based on some asshats private railroad campaign and it fucking reads that way too.
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Lago PARANOIA
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I would like to get some information on Mystera however, if for no other reason than the fact that Capcom made two arcade games based off of the setting (Tower of Doom, Shadows over Mystera) and that apparently that campaign setting became what we now know as Record of Lodoss War.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Silent Wayfarer
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JigokuBosatsu
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Apart from Dragonlance, which I read at a very tender age, most of my D&D novel reading came when I was long done with RPGs. For laffs. Though I do recall thinking that all the characters in DL were pretty damned stupid, even when I was a boy.
Anyhoo, I remember the "Elminster In Hell" book. Hilarious. Every chapter began with "Elminster screamed as the pit fiend's barbed metal wiener penetrated him. Simultaneously, smaller devils alternately sliced his face off with boxcutters and cast Cure Light Wounds on him." W.T.F.?!?!?!?
Anyhoo, I remember the "Elminster In Hell" book. Hilarious. Every chapter began with "Elminster screamed as the pit fiend's barbed metal wiener penetrated him. Simultaneously, smaller devils alternately sliced his face off with boxcutters and cast Cure Light Wounds on him." W.T.F.?!?!?!?
There used to be one at the mall.Silent Wayfarer wrote:The D&D Arcade games were my first introduction to D&D, and they were fuckawesome.
I played as a cleric, and got to use something called "Sticks to Snakes".
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Username17
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True story: I was in the presence of Tracy and Laura Hickman. Laura Hickman tells Gully Dwarf jokes, using a really fake Appalachian accent. She laughs at these jokes in the middle of them and after they are over. It's... embarrassing to the point of drawing physically noticeable winces to be around these people while they are talking about their Gully Dwarf creations.
-Username17
-Username17
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JigokuBosatsu
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HILARIOUS FACT: I owned the Dragonlance Silver Anniversary book, which reprints all the original modules and provides (2nd edition) stats for all the characters.
Caramon Majere has an intelligence score of 12.
lol
Caramon Majere has an intelligence score of 12.
lol
Psychic Robot wrote:but is it a bad enough game to rescue the President?Pathfinder is still a bad game
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Lago PARANOIA
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Well, after you adjust for the self-insertion factor with all scores starting at 16, that's pretty accurate.
In a 'real' tabletop game his intelligence would be about an 8. At most.
In a 'real' tabletop game his intelligence would be about an 8. At most.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Man, we played the shit out of those games when we were 15. Even nowadays whenever we cast a spell in D&D we do it by shouting the spell name in the squeaky elf mage voice.Silent Wayfarer wrote:The D&D Arcade games were my first introduction to D&D, and they were fuckawesome.
"MAGIC MISSILE!"
Last edited by Red_Rob on Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Simplified Tome Armor.
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
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Judging__Eagle
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She sounds like a horrible comedian. Worse still, she's a racist. Which doesn't truly surprise me, since they're both Mormons, and Mormonism has some really racist ideas, like "only white people can go to heaven".FrankTrollman wrote:True story: I was in the presence of Tracy and Laura Hickman. Laura Hickman tells Gully Dwarf jokes, using a really fake Appalachian accent. She laughs at these jokes in the middle of them and after they are over. It's... embarrassing to the point of drawing physically noticeable winces to be around these people while they are talking about their Gully Dwarf creations.
-Username17
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
Why is this a beloved setting exactly? I can understand the love for (pre 4E)FR, Ravenloft, Eberron, Planescale, DS, Spelljammer, and even Greyhawk despite it being the blandest setting ever...
...but between the gully dwarves, the kender, the relegious overtone crap, how does this setting find fans? Some of the stuff I've read about DL here makes fucking Gor sound more reasonable, and Gor's one of the most reviled hate-filled pieces of fantasy ever made.
...but between the gully dwarves, the kender, the relegious overtone crap, how does this setting find fans? Some of the stuff I've read about DL here makes fucking Gor sound more reasonable, and Gor's one of the most reviled hate-filled pieces of fantasy ever made.
Last edited by sake on Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lago PARANOIA
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I read the heavily sanitized and pared-down comic and I really enjoyed it. I mean, beforehand I had the Dragonlance sourcebooks because I was/am always looking for ways to create an awesome monk but I never really read them except for cheese potential.
I enjoyed the comic quite a bit, until it stopped covering the trilogy. Now I hate it with the fury of a thousand suns.
I enjoyed the comic quite a bit, until it stopped covering the trilogy. Now I hate it with the fury of a thousand suns.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
A lot of people read Dragonlance when they're in their teens and don't know about the ugly side of it.sake wrote:Why is this a beloved setting exactly? I can understand the love for (pre 4E)FR, Ravenloft, Eberron, Planescale, DS, Spelljammer, and even Greyhawk despite it being the blandest setting ever...
...but between the gully dwarves, the kender, the relegious overtone crap, how does this setting find fans? Some of the stuff I've read about DL here makes fucking Gor sound more reasonable, and Gor's one of the most reviled hate-filled pieces of fantasy ever made.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Lago PARANOIA
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Just look up 'gullah', hogarth.
The throwaway line in the gully dwarf description about them being 'surprisingly good cooks' is a dead giveaway about what's really going on.
The throwaway line in the gully dwarf description about them being 'surprisingly good cooks' is a dead giveaway about what's really going on.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.