Renewable Energy

[Datawolf]

I thought she was rich because of royalties from her album sales.

[Juton]

The fundamental point is that the Federal government has no money. It takes other people's money, either in the form of taxes or through borrowing. So the more "generous" the federal government is, the more "mean" it has to be to everyone else.

The freeish market is far from perfect, but the centrally planned market is guarenteed to fail. The combination of Peter's Principle and Murphy's Law demand it.

I certainly don't think a planned economy would be better than than a freeish market, but it's not black and white. There is an entire spectrum of workable economies, my conjecture is that making any economy freer won't necessarily make it better, fairer or even bigger. Once you accept that government can play a role than the question becomes what role should it play?

The government of a working democracy doesn't have a lot of ways to encourage citizens to do anything, which is good. Sure it can make laws or collect fines but that only discourages 'bad' behaviour, incentives are about the only to encourage 'good' behaviour.

I think every president since Eisenhower has called for the US to rid itself on its dependence on foreign oil. The market hasn't done it, it needs to be done so either the government can try in its own way, or nothing will get done.

[tzor]

First of all, I think we are dealing with two completely different issues. The first issue is the idea of using tax code to promote some preceived good. All well and good in theory, but since in the real world, laws are made by people with real flaws and self interests (even if only the desire to be relected) the notion is inherently flawed. Even my favorite tax breaks are, to some extent wrong.

I think every president since Eisenhower has called for the US to rid itself on its dependence on foreign oil. The market hasn't done it, it needs to be done so either the government can try in its own way, or nothing will get done.

The issue of foreign oil is completely separate in many ways and forms. The federal government has already shut down all drilling in the gulf, first with a moritorium and now by simply not processing applications. Consider how many deepwater rigs have already moved out of the Gulf of Mexico.

Before that great millionare of Standard Oil made his empire, petrolium used to be dumped into the rivers as a waste product. Oil is still today too God damned cheap to have any reasonable alternative assuming that you had someone who wanted to invest their time, talents and treasures to come up with that alternative. In the mean time, the best alternative to foreign oil is domestic oil.

After that, we need to remember that we do not have an "energy" shortage. Energy is all around us. We have a energy storage shortage. We do not need to look for the next best fuel, we need a way to maximize and store energy so that it can be transfered and stored as effectively as petrolium is today. We need the power of a super battery with the chargability of a capacitor. That is the real answer to our long term problems and half of the permanent solution.

[cthulhu]

We already have pumped water storage last time I checked. The reason the US will struggle with energy indepemdance is this diagram



Also, if you want to have a serious discussion about renewable energy strategies, you need to have read this

http://www.withouthotair.com/Contents.html

ebook and pdf downloads free there.

Seriously, you're just not worth talking to until you actually understand the dimensions and scale of the issues, problems, and target energy mix.

[Fuchs]

In fact the opposite can be argued: Fossil fuels are so important to our current technology that using it for energy is a crime. Having a way to create a supply of fossil "fuels" for non energy purposes is a major long term requirement.

My chemistry teacher said that 20 years ago already.

[tzor]

We were discussing foreign petroleum products, not energy consumption in general. Foreign petroleum products go mostly into transportation and also into home heating. Its use in electrical generation is minor.

CLICK ON ME ... I'M A PNG

In fact it is one percent. As far as the electrical grid is concerned, we are still a coal using nation. My point was towards getting grid power to things that are basically “off of the grid.” These would include cars, trucks, busses, and boats. Currently there is no reliable storage medium that does not involve some crackpot dictator for one or more of the key elements of that storage medium; thus producing a long term security threat to the national interests. Just as the problem with foreign oil is that same security threat; all proposed systems for converting to electric transportation merely replaces one bastard with another.

[cthulhu]

I'm not talking about electrical generation, I'm talking about total power consumption in all forms, including personal transportation, industrial use, trucks and aviation.

So is my diagram. Please actually read the book in the link and try again.

[Cynic]

Can you explain what fossil fuels are used for that are non-energy related?

[virgil]

Plastic and fertilizer are the two I can think of off the top of my head.

[Draco_Argentum]

And plastic should be in all caps. Everything is plastic, without that we're fucked.

[Maj]

Can you explain what fossil fuels are used for that are non-energy related?

Twinkies!

Petroleum products go into making fabric (polyester), chapstick and candles (paraffin - also part of the wax on paper cups and frozen foods), vitamin supplements (thiamine, iron), paint, industrial solvents, food additives, packaging, detergents and soaps...

I've mentioned sulfur a couple of times, now, I think... You don't even get it. Sulfuric acid is so vital to manufacturing and industry, and the sulfur comes straight from petroleum.

Wikipedia: Sulfuric acid[/url]]Sulfuric acid is a very important commodity chemical, and indeed, a nation's sulfuric acid production is a good indicator of its industrial strength.

More quoting (bold added by me):

The major use (60% of total production worldwide) for sulfuric acid is in the "wet method" for the production of phosphoric acid (Coca-Cola), used for manufacture of phosphate fertilizers as well as trisodium phosphate for detergents...

Sulfuric acid is used in large quantities by the iron and steelmaking industry to remove oxidation, rust and scale from rolled sheet and billets prior to sale to the automobile and white goods (appliances) industry (the rust removed is powdered and added to enriched flour as an iron supplement). Used acid is often recycled using a Spent Acid Regeneration (SAR) plant. These plants combust spent acid with natural gas, refinery gas, fuel oil or other fuel sources. This combustion process produces gaseous sulfur dioxide (food preservative, see dried apricots among many others)...

Ammonium sulfate, an important nitrogen fertilizer, is most commonly produced as a byproduct from coking plants...

Another important use for sulfuric acid is for the manufacture of aluminum sulfate, also known as paper maker's alum. This can react with small amounts of soap on paper pulp fibers to give gelatinous aluminum carboxylates, which help to coagulate the pulp fibers into a hard paper surface. It is also used for making aluminum hydroxide, which is used at water treatment plants to filter out impurities, as well as to improve the taste of the water.

it is the usual acid catalyst for the conversion of cyclohexanone oxime to caprolactam, used for making nylon. It is used for making hydrochloric acid from salt...

Much H2SO4 is used in petroleum refining, for example as a catalyst for the reaction of isobutane with isobutylene to give isooctane, a compound that raises the octane rating of gasoline (petrol). Sulfuric acid is also important in the manufacture of dyestuffs solutions and is the "acid" in lead-acid (car) batteries.

All this comes from one component of petroleum (and other fossil fuels and sources like coal and tar sands).

Here's something from the Texas Alliance of Energy Producers:

Texas Alliance of Energy Producers from August 2008[/url] {pdf}]Credit cards, American flags, Eyelashes, Aspirin, No-wax floors, Permanent-press clothes, Oxygen masks, Golf balls, Ink, Lighter fluid, Heart valves, Hair spray, Attaché cases, Crayons, Steering wheels, Wet suits, Disposable diapers, Food wraps, Laxatives, Parachutes, Stretch pants, Trash cans, Telephones, Rubber duckies, Brassieres, Enamel, Seed tape, Wall coverings, Transparent tape, Card tables, Acrylic paints, Antiseptics, Golf cart bodies, Vacuum bottles, Vinyl siding, Slips, Shoe trees, Safety flares, Warm-up suits, Bearing grease, Overcoats, Ping-pong paddles, Rafts, Bubble bath, Purses, Sockets, Bookends, Weed killers, Flippers, Planters, Football pads, Tiles, Deodorant, Puzzles, Air conditioners, Panty hose, Backpacks, Tubs, Dish drainers, Rubbing alcohol, Shag rugs, Crabgrass killer, Epoxy paint, Lunch boxes, Puppets, Oil filters, Jerseys, Pajamas, Mailboxes, Windshield wipers, Upholstery, Uniforms, Phonographs, Hearing aids, Welcome mats, Car sound insulation, Racks, Pacifiers, Dresses, Cassettes, Garment bags, Track shoes, Dominoes, Fences, Pond liners, Luggage, Kitchen counter tops, Protractors, Antifreeze, Earphones, Flashlights, Windbreakers, Whistles, Motorcycle helmets, Pillows, Clothesline, Dune buggy bodies, Carpet sweepers, Antibiotics, Checkers, Chess boards, Shower doors, Soap dishes, Yardsticks, Shorts, Syringes, Slip covers, Sugar bowls, Shoes Paddles, Decoys, Volley balls, Tobacco pouches, Sleeping bags, Refrigerator linings, Pencils, Electrician’s tape, Model cars, Midi-skirts, Kites, Folding doors, Mini-skirts, Floor wax, Garden hoses, Mascara, Paneling, Lawn sprinklers, Sweaters, Sneakers, Playing cards, Bread boxes, Earrings, Dolls, Bubble gum, Sandwich bags, Microfilm, Coasters, Raincoats, Floor polish, Tennis shoes, Sports car bodies, Stoppers, Straps, Smocks, Tennis balls, Tires, Tablecloths, Measuring cups, Rulers, Ring binders, Reclining chairs, Boat covers, Tote bags, Dishwashing liquids, Unbreakable dishes, Toothbrushes, Extension cords, First-aid kits, Notebooks, Combs, Watchbands, Darts, Flight bags, Toothpaste, Flea collars, Drip-dry dresses, Tents, Stadium cushions, Plastic varnish, Finger paints, Foul weather gear, Foot pads, Refrigerants, Rugs, Nightgowns, Sandals, Hair curlers, Lamps, Lipstick, Laminates, Ice cube trays, Typewriter cases, Visors, Swimming pool liners, Laundry softeners, Electric blankets, Ear plugs, Tennis rackets, Shirts, Drinking cups, Canisters, House paint, Lamp shades, Computer tape, Cough syrup, Roller skate wheels, Movie film, Hair dryers, Guitar strings, Ammonia, Plastic foam coolers, Maxi-skirts, Gaskets, Brake fluid, Jugs, Monkey bars, Bathrobes, Eyeglasses, Venetian blinds, Shawls, Vinyl tops, Digital clocks, Draperies, Ice chests, Life jackets, Audio tape, TV cabinets, Model planes, Car battery cases, Measuring tape, Insect repellent, Hockey pucks, Ice buckets, Fishing nets, Fertilizers, Hiking boots, Hair coloring, Knitting yarn, Toilet seats, Towel bars, Denture adhesive, Frisbees, Hair rollers, Light fixtures, Loudspeakers, Movie film Panties, Electronic calculators, Fishing boots, Candles, Diving masks, Hairbrushes, Body suits, Water pipes, Pails, Car enamel, Guitar picks, Vinyl shingles, Switch plates, Shower curtains, Sponges Detergents, Beach balls, Ties, Sunglasses, Bird houses, Bathinettes, Records, Typewriter ribbons, Footballs, Disposable lighters, Doorknobs, Sewing machine cases, Fishing reels, Mattresses, Lifeboats, Girdles, Diving boards, Luggage carriers, Blouses, Glue, Plastic drains, Kitchen gloves, Jackets, Bathroom scales, Fishing rods, Linoleum, Shelves, Shower caps, Zippers, Plastic wood, Stuffed animals, Car mats, Soft contact lenses, Dog leashes, Dice, Trash bags, Thermal blankets, Drinking straws, Afghans, Pole vault poles, Foam insulation, Hand lotion, Shampoo, Shaving cream, Aquariums, Sails, Soft bumpers, Safety glass, Erasers, Radio cases, Awnings, Knitting needles, Fan blades, Wigs, Window shutters, Salad bowls, Epoxy glue, Punching bags, Model ships, Shavers, Plywood adhesive, Parkas, Football suits, Cameras, Shoelaces, Swizzle sticks, Piano keys, Bikinis, Bracelets, Football helmets, Anesthetics, Plungers, Artificial turf, Patio furniture, Ashtrays, Artificial limbs, Rain hats, Bandages, Dentures, Belts, Tongs, Tumblers, Car seats, Popcorn poppers, Poker chips, Mops, Bumper guards, Convertible tops, Clothes hangers, Cushions, Scarves, Chess figures, Tennis courts, Beach umbrellas, Ballpoint pens, Ant poison, Boats, Nail polish, Pudding Molds, Eye shadow, “Tiffany” lamps, Typewriter keys, Wire insulation, Desk organizers, Fake furs, T-shirts, Electric scissors, Golf bags, Skin conditioners, Photographs, Outdoor carpeting, Tool boxes, Salt shakers, Screen door screens, Sculptures, Caulking, Outboard motor housings, Tape recorders, Distributor housings, Window shades, Dog food dishes, Curtains, Dog toys, Lids, Pan handles, Slippers, Tennis shirts, Tent pegs, Tennis shorts, Vitamin capsules, Dashboards, Ribbons, Putty Percolators, Swings, Skis, Tool racks, Folding chairs, Charcoal lighter, Gas siphons, Robes Picture frames, Air mattresses, Petticoats, Seat covers, Slacks, Hampers, Lighting panels, Yarn, Jars, Stools, Wastebaskets, Wall plugs, Insecticides, Baby bottles, Fishing lures, Hoses, Perfumes, Shoe polish, Shower heads, Flavors, Petroleum jelly, Photo albums, Tranquilizers, Canteens, Snorkels, Faucet washers, Checkbooks, Traffic cones, Corrosion inhibitors, Signs, Room dividers, Name tags, Flower pots, Pipes, Projection screens, Slide trays, Chop sticks, Ski boots, Food preservatives, Antihistamines, Slides, Squeeze bottles, Soil conditioners, Cortisone, Ski poles, Vinegar, Mouthwash, Oven bags, Sedatives, Dyes, Display cases, Streamers, Paint brushes, Air filters, Balloons, LP records, Vaporizers, Solvents, Razors, Dry-cleaning fluid, Waxed paper, Cigarette filters, Gloves, Roofing, Cold cream, Carbon paper, Wallets, Bedspreads, Patio screens, Darkroom trays, Synthetic rubber, Badminton birdies, Glycerin, Hang gliders, Water softeners, Rubber cement, Iron-on patches, Grease pencils, Ballet tights, Nylon rope, Price tags, Masking tape, Water skis, Paint sprayers, Fan belts, Mittens, Blenders, Humidifiers, Camera bags, Umbrellas, Ponchos, Paint rollers, Shopping bags, Antenna cable, Bird feeders, Exercise mats, Picnic kits, Mattress covers

The more I learn about oil and other fossil fuels, the more I can't believe that we just stick it in our cars and burn it.

[Molochio]

Renewable energy?

This kind of innovation tends to end in one of two ways for it's sponsors:

1. A representative of an unnamed group or organization shows up and offers the inventor a LOT of money for purchase of the patents and all rights to the ideas and their applications, and the inventor accepts. End of renewable energy.

2. Someone kills the inventor. End of renewable energy.

There are very few, if any, exceptions to this rubric.

[DragonChild]

Your conspiracy theories are ridiculous. When has that EVER happened? Why would a company not buy it out, and then produce it becoming super rich?

[Molochio]

@DragonChild: We live in an age of space travel, hydrogen weapons, weather manipulation, and global communication, where even the lowest members of society can access global satellite networks via cellular phone and look an naval bases in other countries and you think that renewable energy is beyond our ken?

Do not be so naive.

Unlimited energy was unraveled by Nikola Tesla back in the 19th century.
And yes... All of his patents have been purchased, as well.
As to why not produce it?

I will leave that to you to study. I believe the independent research would do more to convince you than my words alone ever could.

[Midnight_v]

Why would a company not buy it out, and then produce it becoming super rich?

Holy fuck.
Its like this. You sell oil. You have PLENTY of fucking oil left. You're family's ben doing that shit for a century. Some yahoo fucking quack pot figure's out a way to TOTALLY REPLACE THE OIL YOUR KIDS WERE GOING TO SELL. . . and this new shit going to be post scarcity i.e. free so your future sales are out.
The move for most rational buisness me is to do away with that shit by any means nessacary.

oh and by the way...

When has that EVER happened?

So, you fucking believe the world as it was taught to you in 8th grade history class?
Psst... Columbus didn't discover the America's.

[Kaelik]

Wow, Midnight and Molochio are fucking stupid.

No one invented "renewable energy" except Nuclear Power plants. Those are not used enough because people are cowards.

There has never been any other source, and your stupid conspiracies about people who buy sources of infinite free energy and then don't use them to create and sell infinite energy are fucking stupid.

[cthulhu]

@DragonChild: We live in an age of space travel, hydrogen weapons, weather manipulation, and global communication, where even the lowest members of society can access global satellite networks via cellular phone and look an naval bases in other countries and you think that renewable energy is beyond our ken?

It's not beyond a ken. We know how to do it. Just it costs 8-14 cents a kilowatt hour and, if you ignore negative externalities, coal costs less than that.

Also conspiracy theories that suggest standard oil is trying to surpress renewable power generation is jsut dumb on first priniciples. What the fuck do they car about improved solar panel technology, industrial power generation isn't even close to the biggest use of petroleum products.

Any giant conspiracy would be the coal companies.

This is like a giant rehash of that 'some hyper efficient petrol engine exists out there, just it's being hidden by the government' style conspiracies that are fucking retarded. If GM had a some mad efficient engine that used 1 litre of petrol for 1000kms, that would use it to put all the other car companies out of business, not hide it in a covert ops program.

And if not GM, it would be the fucking japanese. Why? They don't have an oil!

Do not be so naive.

Unlimited energy was unraveled by Nikola Tesla back in the 19th century.
And yes... All of his patents have been purchased, as well.
As to why not produce it?

I will leave that to you to study. I believe the independent research would do more to convince you than my words alone ever could.

Yes, and the US government planned 9/11, the theory of evolution was created as part of a conspiracy by the west to attack islam, and Obama was born in kenya.

Seriously, what the fuck.

[Midnight_v]

Kaelik, is a fucking Liar or doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about

Did I say anything about conspiracy theories being real? Nope.

My argument has jack shit to do with what Molochio is talking about and is in response to... "Why would someone not just buy it out and become super rich" which is basically an example of not thinking. This starts with the assumtion that he's saying "If thats the case then THIS" which is basically fucking stupid because its a bad buisness decision. It may be that you can prove Molochio's argument wrong (and that is Molochio's argument your calling stupid not mine by the way) but you can't disprove it with silly shit like what he said.
On being stupid...
The funny thing about you is I like you Kaelik your rants are entertaining but you're not gonna be able to bullshit, and bully AND make ludicrous blantantly false statments.

No one invented "renewable energy" except Nuclear Power plants. Those are not used enough because people are cowards.

You sir are a fucking liar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy

I especially take pleasure in directing you to the part that says:

Mainstream forms of renewable energy
2.1 Wind power
2.2 Hydropower
2.3 Solar energy
2.4 Biomass
2.5 Biofuel
2.6 Geothermal energy

My personal favorite is wind. Yours?
So tell me Kaelik, are you intentionally lying about this? Or are you just so busy ranting that you didn't realize what the fuck you were saying?
Renewable Energy IS real and has a real definiton that people use when they say it. Take a sec... enjoy the wiki.

[Molochio]

Wow, Midnight and Molochio are fucking stupid.

No one invented "renewable energy" except Nuclear Power plants. Those are not used enough because people are cowards.

There has never been any other source, and your stupid conspiracies about people who buy sources of infinite free energy and then don't use them to create and sell infinite energy are fucking stupid.

Your reasoning is deeply flawed on numerous levels.
The claim that I am stupid is a poorly constructed ad hominem attack, which I shall dismiss.
If you wish to compose a formal argument on a separate occasion to prove that I possess the above listed negative traits, you may do so, but this sentiment is irrelevant.

Your argument against the existence of renewable energy also fails and is not build upon any recognizable logic.
There is no valid premise which leads to your conclusion. You just randomly arrive at this conclusion apparently from some personal bias.

This is also a fallacy:
Appeal to Belief
Which states that most people believe claim P is true -> Claim P is true.
This form of reasoning is fallacious because the fact that many people may believe some form of renewable energy does not exist, in general, does not serve as evidence that the claim of nonexistence is true.
This fallacy once led to a belief that earth was flat.

The entirety of your argument is disfunctional and thus irrelevant.
Please feel free to speak to me again on this matter when you are capable of offering a logical argument based on sound reasoning.

[Username17]

To say that fossil fuel companies lobby to undermine renewable energy is not a wild-eyed conspiracy theory. I mean yeah, the idea that Tesla had super energy production schemes that are kept under wraps is a wild-eyed conspiracy theory, but the idea that coal companies work with the government to keep solar down is not.

Coal is used in preference to other power generation methods because it costs less. And a huge reason it costs less money is because the government foots a large portion of the bill. Hidden subsidies to coal are a disincentive to making tidal power generation plants or wind farms. Every cent that gets shaved off the "burning fossil fuels" power generation plans is a barrier to entry for novel power sources.

And the oil and coal industries have a lot of cents shaved off the costs of their kilowatt hours. Not the least in the fact that the people of the world are being asked to pay pretty much the entire rather substantial environmental costs of their use.

-Username17

[tzor]

There is no "conspiracy" the opposition is right out in the open.

Half of the renewable energy projects are opposed by environmentalists.

• Wind power kills birds
• Solar covers up important desert ecologies
• Hydroelectric dams hurt migrating fish
• Geothermal pulls heat from the ground and forces water into the ground and that's bad

The rest are opposed by the rich because most of the places for these things are in their beautiful backyards.

Name an alternative to coal and oil and the two groups will be lobbying against it before you finish naming the alternative.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

how many people would renewable energy benefit? If I'm robbing Peter to pay 4.6 billion people, Peter is going down with extreme prejudice.

I've been through too much crap to think that "fairness" is anything but fantasy.

EDIT: And I am having trouble understanding your views. Please correct me if I'm off here, but why are you okay with cutting taxes for the wealthy because the wealthy are "punished", but you are not okay with only cutting taxes to wealthy people that are actually using their wealth to do things?

I'm just wondering.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

My personal favorite is wind. Yours?

My favorite is Nuclear. Fewer people have died from accidents related to nuclear power than anything else (Wind power is inefficient, is absolute HELL on the environment, and tend to fly apart violently and send giant pieces of jagged metal everywhere).

Nuclear isn't renewable, to be sure. But statistically, Nuclear is the safest type of energy production that exists.

[tzor]

Just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

how many people would renewable energy benefit? If I'm robbing Peter to pay 4.6 billion people, Peter is going down with extreme prejudice.

When I use the expression robbing Peter to pay Paul I'm not specifically thinking of class warfare. Peter is the one who doesn't have the tax break, and Paul is the one who has the tax break. Peter and Paul may even be the same person.

Example: Currently we have big taxbreaks on corn based ethanol (finally Gore admitted this was only done because of politics). These taxbreaks divert a lot of corn into ethanol production. This causes massive increases in the price of non ethanol corn based products like tacos. People who buy tacos are Peter. People who buy ethanol fuel is Paul. On top of it all both Peter and Paul have to pay for this tax break because it occured upwards on the chain; it's a wash for Paul (he should come out ahead but that's not going to happen in the real world), it's a double whammy on Peter.

More importantly if you help A you indirectly hurt B because you aren't helping B. B could be actually better than A but you will never know because everyone is going to do A because of the help A is getting.

[tzor]

My personal favorite is wind. Yours?

My favorite is Nuclear.

My favorite is Hydroelectric. (This includes tidal.)
Nuclear is my second choice.