I still don't understand your complaint. Is it:
A: Dwarves must specifically hate orcs and elves, or it isn't D&D?
B: D&D is based on race hatred and eternal war, and no one in the setting is doing that
or
C: Everyone needs at least some enemies, and the dwarves don't seem to have any.
Any interest in a Tome setting book/thread?
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Username17
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so... change the dwarf statline? Wouldn't be the first time a campaign setting has different stats for a base race than the generic setting core books... So long as you're up front about that with players, it's all good.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
Well, I wouldn't say 'all good', but I would say that's acceptable.Prak_Anima wrote:So long as you're up front about that with players, it's all good.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
I am saying:
1) The actual D&D dwarf history has always been that they are surly assholes who at best grudgingly tolerate non dwarves, and more often than not are the most racist assholes you will ever meet.
2) The specific Tome write up of dwarves is all about how they are all at war with literally everyone all the time.
3) Therefore, when your dwarves are a) best budds with everyone, b) especially the people they are actually supposed to hate the most, your setting sucks as a default Tome setting.
I mean, this is not hard. Yes, your setting pisses me off in a bout 30 different ways, and that's fine, because I'm never going to play in your setting. As a setting, it's slightly less retarded than FR. However, as a default Tome setting, you took all the stuff that Tome writeups made, and literally pissed all over them.
The Tome write ups are based partially on stats, and partially on the general D&D conventions of what races are like in Greyhawk. So if you say:
Dwarves are never mad at everyone, Halflings rule the world, and Drow are the good elves. You are exactly as much a default Tome setting as if you said:
Mindflayers don't eat peoples minds, Chokers language is universally understandable, and Angels have the evil subtype, and demons have the good subtype.
1) The actual D&D dwarf history has always been that they are surly assholes who at best grudgingly tolerate non dwarves, and more often than not are the most racist assholes you will ever meet.
2) The specific Tome write up of dwarves is all about how they are all at war with literally everyone all the time.
3) Therefore, when your dwarves are a) best budds with everyone, b) especially the people they are actually supposed to hate the most, your setting sucks as a default Tome setting.
I mean, this is not hard. Yes, your setting pisses me off in a bout 30 different ways, and that's fine, because I'm never going to play in your setting. As a setting, it's slightly less retarded than FR. However, as a default Tome setting, you took all the stuff that Tome writeups made, and literally pissed all over them.
The Tome write ups are based partially on stats, and partially on the general D&D conventions of what races are like in Greyhawk. So if you say:
Dwarves are never mad at everyone, Halflings rule the world, and Drow are the good elves. You are exactly as much a default Tome setting as if you said:
Mindflayers don't eat peoples minds, Chokers language is universally understandable, and Angels have the evil subtype, and demons have the good subtype.
Unrestricted Diplomat 5314 wrote:Accept this truth, as the wisdom of the Crafted: when the oppressors and abusers have won, when the boot of the callous has already trampled you flat, you should always, always take your swing."
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Username17
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Would it appease people if I called it an "example" setting rather than a "default?"
The Tomes aren't a single, consistent rule system. The Frank and K Tomes aren't all even consistent with each other, and then there is some fan material well-regarded enough to almost count. As Frank Trollman himself always said, the point of the tomes was at least as much to show people how to fix games themselves as to law down his own rules. Anybody who wants to run a Tome game is going to be picking and choosing which rules, feats, and classes are going on, and constructing a setting out of all his or her favorite pieces. As such, there is not and cannot be a "default" Tome setting.
What Ourania *can* do is be a proof of concept. It can show someone clicking over from Pathfinder or WOTC that you really can put together an interesting game world out of Tome-related material. It can also function as an advertisement. There's a certain body of people who love reading about campaign settings. If we make a Tome setting cool enough, it might attract some attention to the tome rules themselves.
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As for the changes made, I just want to point out that you're holding Ourania to a higher standard than the actual Tomes.
I don't want to change rules text if I can help it; I'm not sure what I'm going to do about the dwarf statline. But remember, Races of War changed Goblin and Half-Orc stats. Clearly doing so is allowed when justified. Same for reversing popular fluff. I think it's pretty obvious that the Races of War depiction of Elves "pisses all over" elves as they are portrayed in Greyhawk, FR, and most games.
I suppose you could say changing the PHB was the raison d'etre of the Tome project, whereas a Tome setting should be 100% faithful to the source. There's a problem there though which is that the actual Tomes are not self-consistent. Many of the PrCs in Tome of Necromancy don't make sense post-Races of War. The Fiend classes aren't balanced for RoW-level play. There are two incompatible writeups of magic arrows.
Frankly, if Frank Trollman had written a another tome, the "Tome of Settings" or whatever, I don't think it would have been notably more consistent with the rest of them than mine is. If you don't *like* the changes, you don't like the changes, but that doesn't make them illegitimte.
The Tomes aren't a single, consistent rule system. The Frank and K Tomes aren't all even consistent with each other, and then there is some fan material well-regarded enough to almost count. As Frank Trollman himself always said, the point of the tomes was at least as much to show people how to fix games themselves as to law down his own rules. Anybody who wants to run a Tome game is going to be picking and choosing which rules, feats, and classes are going on, and constructing a setting out of all his or her favorite pieces. As such, there is not and cannot be a "default" Tome setting.
What Ourania *can* do is be a proof of concept. It can show someone clicking over from Pathfinder or WOTC that you really can put together an interesting game world out of Tome-related material. It can also function as an advertisement. There's a certain body of people who love reading about campaign settings. If we make a Tome setting cool enough, it might attract some attention to the tome rules themselves.
----
As for the changes made, I just want to point out that you're holding Ourania to a higher standard than the actual Tomes.
I don't want to change rules text if I can help it; I'm not sure what I'm going to do about the dwarf statline. But remember, Races of War changed Goblin and Half-Orc stats. Clearly doing so is allowed when justified. Same for reversing popular fluff. I think it's pretty obvious that the Races of War depiction of Elves "pisses all over" elves as they are portrayed in Greyhawk, FR, and most games.
I suppose you could say changing the PHB was the raison d'etre of the Tome project, whereas a Tome setting should be 100% faithful to the source. There's a problem there though which is that the actual Tomes are not self-consistent. Many of the PrCs in Tome of Necromancy don't make sense post-Races of War. The Fiend classes aren't balanced for RoW-level play. There are two incompatible writeups of magic arrows.
Frankly, if Frank Trollman had written a another tome, the "Tome of Settings" or whatever, I don't think it would have been notably more consistent with the rest of them than mine is. If you don't *like* the changes, you don't like the changes, but that doesn't make them illegitimte.
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Hieronymous Rex
- Journeyman
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I really, really hate this idea. The relationship to gods is the defining aspect of divine magic. An apatheistic cleric is a contradiction in terms. I personally never liked animist clerics (like Druids), because they diminish the concept behind clerics. The system you presented of casters powered by "planar cores" is a good idea, but these characters are not clerics.--divine magic decoupled from gods; monotheism, polytheism, animism, apatheism presetned as viable options.
So, now they're double-tired?--reverses some tired tropes. Dwarves, and Hobgoblins are allies. Dwarves and Drow are allies. Elves and other Dwarves are allies.
Hieronymous,
What is a god? Divine magic in this setting was originally a gift from Outsiders to the humanoid races. A Planetar gives most of the Greek gods a run for their money anyway. Religion as portrayed in FR and Greyhawk makes no sense, and anyway making PC class features subjec tto DM fiat is a terrible idea.
What is a god? Divine magic in this setting was originally a gift from Outsiders to the humanoid races. A Planetar gives most of the Greek gods a run for their money anyway. Religion as portrayed in FR and Greyhawk makes no sense, and anyway making PC class features subjec tto DM fiat is a terrible idea.
Hence why you can be a Cleric of an ethos, and just grab some domains and go. You aren't tied to a specific god, so if you piss Gruumsh off he can't cut your powercord, but you're still drawing upon the might of the gods to power your juju.Orion wrote:Hieronymous,
What is a god? Divine magic in this setting was originally a gift from Outsiders to the humanoid races. A Planetar gives most of the Greek gods a run for their money anyway. Religion as portrayed in FR and Greyhawk makes no sense, and anyway making PC class features subjec tto DM fiat is a terrible idea.
Unless you're in FR, but we've already established that FR is complete shit.
For CaptPike: 4E was a terrible game and a total business failure. These are facts that I am stating with absolute certainty.
I disagree, the god is the source ... the relationship is just the reason for granting the divine magic, and different gods might have different reasons.Hieronymous Rex wrote:I really, really hate this idea. The relationship to gods is the defining aspect of divine magic.
There might be a god which grants divine magic to animists because it loves nature. There might be a god which grants divine magic to shoe worshippers because it really loves shoes.
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Judging__Eagle
- Prince
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Only in your house-ruled home-brewed settings MfA.
The default assumption is that a Cleric is a tricky conniving hobo-murderer who carries a bunch of gear of one theme; can use powers that oppose their visible theme; and are fueled by a desire to do trickery and travel the multiverse.
Sometimes they raze the legions of the undead, sometimes that same cleric raises an army of the dead, "for the lulz".
Personally, I'd prefer if clerics were linked to a Plane or more, hedging their bets to get into a place that looks appealing and will suit them. Worshipping a specific Diety means that you've narrowed down who will be specifically judging you once you Final.
The default assumption is that a Cleric is a tricky conniving hobo-murderer who carries a bunch of gear of one theme; can use powers that oppose their visible theme; and are fueled by a desire to do trickery and travel the multiverse.
Sometimes they raze the legions of the undead, sometimes that same cleric raises an army of the dead, "for the lulz".
Personally, I'd prefer if clerics were linked to a Plane or more, hedging their bets to get into a place that looks appealing and will suit them. Worshipping a specific Diety means that you've narrowed down who will be specifically judging you once you Final.
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.