WTF is with peoples' objections to a unified power system?

[Shazbot79]

The only instances of a unified power systems that I've seen have been in 4E, superhero games, and in gamebooks like Lone Wolf (The multiplayer gamebook from Mongoose is pretty much a direct port of the gamebook mechanics, and all of the classes are on the same schedule, with the "power" structure pretty much the same across the board).

I have to wonder at the value of 4E's implementation. I think that the unified structure WOULD have been great, if the upper tier martial powers had actually done anything interesting. I took a look at the endgame fighter powers, most of which were just another +[W] tacked onto a power that you've probably had since heroic tier. There was maybe one or two that had an interesting effect...a half-dozen or so that were nothing but slightly bigger numbers, and 3 or 4 "you attack and then attack again" powers, of which you're inevitably going to pick the one that allows you to stack the most static modifiers anyway. If there's really that little variety to be had with martial attack powers, I don't see what the point of giving them the A/E/D progression like wizards and clerics...classes that actually get to do more interesting stuff with their attack powers.

That isn't to say that I don't think martial classes should have powers, but it seems to me they should embrace the idea that Fighters are pretty much Hercules or Cuchulainn at epic levels and focus instead on giving them abilities that make them Hulk strong, Flash fast, Wuxia nimble and able to hurl boulders or punch through stone walls like the Kool-Aid man. These things would probably be more like passive abilities that bolster the whole sword-swinging aspect of the characters, and not really conducive to the A/E/D structure, unless you want to tack these things to basic attacks, Essentials style.

However, if we were to shunt martial classes off to the side, I think the A/E/D structure would have been fine for Arcane/Divine/Primal/Psionic and the late Shadow and Elemental sources...the ones that are rooted in supernatural forces, IF the power source had actually meant something mechanically. If all of the Arcane classes had some unifying mechanical evident in not only class features, but also coloring individual powers themselves, and this was true of the other power sources as well, then I doubt as many people would be butthurt about all the classes sharing a similar resource management scheme.

[CCarter]

In the game I'm working on (and probably will never get done at the rate I'm going) the classes all use Mana but have a different "thing" that they do to get Mana. For example:

Barbarians take damage to gain Mana. Thusly are given incentive to be Melee, to draw fire, and to take risks. Of course all the class abilities help with this.

Rogues get a random amount of Mana per turn but get max in a turn where they are "hidden" from all opponents or make a Sneak attack. This gives the incentive to be sneaky or to make situations where you get to sneak attack.

Wizards start at 3 times max Mana but have to spend standard actions to gain Mana beyond that. This gives the wizard the forward power to cast cast cast right off the bat but forces them to make judicious use of their actions when it comes to recovering Mana. Because of this they are going to want to distance themselves from the fight so that when they burn actions to recover they aren't putting themselves at risk.

Um...this really really really reminds me of Iron Heroes...

[Psychic Robot]

I trust MGuy's abilities over Mearls's.

[MGuy]

I sure hope it doesn't turn out like IH. None of the abilities have prereqs. None of my feats have Prereqs. There's no build you have to keep investing in. And everything runs on Mana. You need mana to use special abilities, magic, inflict status effects, etc. I feel comfortable in stating I did not follow IH's path.

Edit: In addition all abilities that give +1s either scale automatically with level or are scalable by applying more Mana (as spells do the same).

[Username17]

I sure hope it doesn't turn out like IH. None of the abilities have prereqs. None of my feats have Prereqs. There's no build you have to keep investing in. And everything runs on Mana. You need mana to use special abilities, magic, inflict status effects, etc. I feel comfortable in stating I did not follow IH's path.

Edit: In addition all abilities that give +1s either scale automatically with level or are scalable by applying more Mana (as spells do the same).

Sounds like something Sean K Reynolds wrote.

-Username17

[MGuy]

I'm not sure how the link applies to even what I've posted about my game so far. Could this be made clearer?

[Username17]

I'm not sure how the link applies to even what I've posted about my game so far. Could this be made clearer?

Sean K Reynolds made a system of d20 Mages who had "components" that were basically mana. They spent them in order to do stuff and to get bonuses on their rolls to do stuff. It was broken as hell.

-Username17

[Psychic Robot]

SKR is a turd designer. SKR helped make McWoD. SKR helped make Pathfinder.

EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE NOW.

[Psychic Robot]

SKR is a turd designer. SKR helped make McWoD. SKR helped make Pathfinder.

EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE NOW.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Yeah, it`s almost like I read your list, and think it`s bullshit.

Then you should've said that rather than just lying.

Putting everyone on the same power system is easy. It's easy to write, it's easy to implement, it's easy to playtest and it's easy to explain. Those are all good things. But it isn't necessary. If you worked harder, you could make a system that didn't resort to that. It is a lazy way out. I personally think it is generally speaking an acceptable tradeoff, but I'm not going to pretend even for a moment that there is anything high minded about it at all.

It's not just that, it's that those other systems are inferior to WoF. Stuff like:

"mana points" or "action fatigue" or "warm up" or "cool down" or absolutely any other resource management system.

Sucks ass. Maybe there's an alternate resource management system that you could come up with a system as complicated as D&D's, but I've played many D&D-based video games, jRPGs, lots of 3E and 4E, and they're all just not up to snuff with WoF.

So if you want to have different resource management systems at all you need to designate one source as the 'turkey' source where they're stuck with spell charges or mana points or limit breaks. But why would you put an inferior resource management system in the game at all? It's like pizza toppings. Yes, if all a restaurant had to offer was pepperoni it'd suck, but expanding the menu to offer bubble gum and natto as well isn't much better--especially if some people were forced to grab those other toppings.

Mind, this argument falls flat if people are able to come up with other resource management systems that aren't inferior to WoF but I'll be damned if anyone can do that.

[NineInchNall]

I seem to remember a time when you loathed the entire WoF idea, Lago.

[Manxome]

While it stands to reason that having a resource management system would require every character type to get abilities in a similar fashion in order to work with it, that's just blatantly not true.

In a mana system, you could have a fire mage who burned though mana four times as fast to throw hellblasts that were twice as good as normal mana-using attacks.

And if powers have variable mana cost and variable damage, you believe it no longer qualifies as a "unified power system"? It's a semantic point, but that's not how I interpreted the phrase.

So let's rephrase. In order to have a unified resource management system (whether it be WoF, mana, etc.), you need to have modular powers, meaning that you need to come up with a list of requirements that all powers must satisfy and write your rules so that they don't assume anything about powers except that they fulfill those requirements.

For example, for a mana-based system, you might say "every power has a mana cost >= 0, and using a power never costs any resource other than mana and actions." Or for a WoF system, you might say "every power must occupy exactly one slot on the WoF wheel, and may never be invoked except during a round when the appropriate WoF result was rolled."

That doesn't stop you from adding a power that says "when this power's slot comes up on the WoF, you get access to these 3 options (instead of the usual 1), but each can only be used once per day", if that doesn't break any of the rules you made. And your rules can potentially be complicated and arbitrary, though naturally that increases the difficulty of the design. But having a consistent set of rules is an absolute requirement to fit them into a unified framework.


So why would you want a unified resource management system in the first place? Well, apart from the fact that it makes design easier, I'll argue that it is a practical necessity for flexible multiclassing. Sure, it is hypothetically possible to write rules where wizards use mana, berserkers use rage, clerics use WoF, and a wizard/berserker/cleric uses all three and is balanced--but even if you somehow pulled that off, expecting the player to keep track of all three of those resource systems simultaneously is not really reasonable.

In the game I'm working on (and probably will never get done at the rate I'm going) the classes all use Mana but have a different "thing" that they do to get Mana. For example:

Barbarians take damage to gain Mana. Thusly are given incentive to be Melee, to draw fire, and to take risks. Of course all the class abilities help with this.

Rogues get a random amount of Mana per turn but get max in a turn where they are "hidden" from all opponents or make a Sneak attack. This gives the incentive to be sneaky or to make situations where you get to sneak attack.

Wizards start at 3 times max Mana but have to spend standard actions to gain Mana beyond that. This gives the wizard the forward power to cast cast cast right off the bat but forces them to make judicious use of their actions when it comes to recovering Mana. Because of this they are going to want to distance themselves from the fight so that when they burn actions to recover they aren't putting themselves at risk.

So what exactly is the advantage of saying that everyone uses mana? There's no obvious way to mix mana management schemes (that's begging for a barbarian to write "wizard" just so he can start with triple mana). I suppose you could potentially filch powers from other classes, but since mana means something different to everyone, there's no particular reason to expect they'd be balanced--especially if, as you say, classes are given abilities deliberately designed to synergize with their mana management scheme.

In other words, what can you do with this system that you couldn't do if you renamed "mana" something thematically appropriate for each class and said they were completely different things?

[Kaelik]

I see the problem here Lago.

You named your thread wrong. What you should have nemed it is "I want to have sex with the Winds of Fate, and if you like any other system, I am going to murder you and be mean to you on the internet." And then I could have ignored your stupid thread and we wouldn`t have this problem.

But instead you had to go and write the wrong thing in the thread title. So I am going to fix your mistake by killing the thread.

What you did is akin to making a thread about how Hitler is the greatest man ever, and then on page two springing your premise that Jews are evil and need to die.

I agree that it is true that Hitler is the greatest man ever if Jews are evil and need to die. But maybe next time, you can make the thread about your controversial premise, instead of just assuming that everyone agrees with you about something they explicitly disagreed with you about in this thread.

[name_here]

The most obvious advantage to naming everything "Mana" is that you can have draining powers that actually effect every class without it being instantly obsoleted by introducing new and different classes.

[tzor]

Now I feel compelled to DEFEND SKR.

SKR once held a mini painting competition on his web site that got me back into mini painting.

I once bought a crappy reference work from him (when he was trying to do Greek heros in D&D) at Gen Con and got a FREE DEAD GREEK!



Yes, that's my paint job on the FREE DEAD GREEK!

[Username17]

And if powers have variable mana cost and variable damage, you believe it no longer qualifies as a "unified power system"? It's a semantic point, but that's not how I interpreted the phrase.

The point is that no matter how you arrange the resource management system(s) that your game uses, it is unnecessary for every power or every character to interact with them in the same way. And one of the ways you can interact with a resource management system is "not at all".

So why would you want a unified resource management system in the first place? Well, apart from the fact that it makes design easier, I'll argue that it is a practical necessity for flexible multiclassing.

It's obviously not a requirement for multiclassing though. Almost every game that has multiclassing also has multiple resource management schemes. Using a universal resource system and a standardized power accumulation system both make design easier, and they make multiclassing more easier. But neither ones are requirements.

It's something you do because it's easy, not something you do because it's better. It's a declaration of corner cutting. And ultimately you're going to have to cut corners somewhere and that's not necessarily a bad place to do it. But you shouldn't ever say that some corner or another had to be cut. Any corner you cut is something you cut because you were running out of time or ideas or just wanted to put your design attention elsewhere.

And that's fine. But don't pretend that you're corner cutting because you're a visionary or some shit.

-Username17

[Manxome]

It's obviously not a requirement for multiclassing though. Almost every game that has multiclassing also has multiple resource management schemes. Using a universal resource system and a standardized power accumulation system both make design easier, and they make multiclassing more easier. But neither ones are requirements.
...
Any corner you cut is something you cut because you were running out of time or ideas or just wanted to put your design attention elsewhere.

Sorry, but you're just wrong on this one. Increasing the complexity of rules interactions increases the time and skill required of the designer to make the game work (or work well), but it ALSO increases and time and skill required of the player in order to actually play the game.

If a multiclass character adds a different resource management scheme for every class he dips, then the player needs to understand and track all of those resource management schemes. The threshold varies from person to person, but every player will at some point decide that's too much work and walk away from your game. And the more complexity you put in here, the less the player will tolerate in other parts of the system.

So to stay within the complexity tolerance of a given player group, the features you add to your system will at some point be limited by a hard wall that has nothing to do with your skill or work ethic as a designer. And the complexity budget to have both variable power schemes and flexible multiclassing is a lot higher than the budget required for either one alone--no matter how much time the designer is willing to spend working on it.



Incidentally, can you provide any example of a game with multiclassing and multiple resource management schemes where you think they actually did a good job with them?

[Josh_Kablack]

Now I feel compelled to DEFEND SKR.

I am in rare total agreement with Tzor here.

SKR's bit part as the "Grand Inquisitor (aka creepy dude with knife)" in Dorkness Rising was enjoyable.

[MGuy]

@Frank: well the system is far from done. I try to keep bonuses as contained as possible and the amount of Mana you can add to anything is tied to level. The intent was to scale everything up (HP, status effects, defenses, etc) along with MAna so basically you're fighting at the same speed just with more and more abilities gained on as you go up in levels. Whether or not what I have is going to be balanced is up in the air as I'm too far from done to even have a single test. All I have are theories, few people to bounce ideas off of, and little dedicated time to do it.

@Max: The reason to tag everything as "Mana" is mostly because a number of non-class abilities (Spells, skill abilities, Magic Items, etc) all use Mana. It also makes cross class abilities (in the unlikely event I choose to allow it which I'm probably not) to function easier. The main thing though is that Class abilities are all made with regards to how Mana is gained.

I had actually started with giving each class a different sort of point system until I realized that I could just dissolve everything into "Mana" and be able to connect other things to the resource should I need to.

Edit: I'm a bit tired from work so sorry if this didn't come out right. Also I figured it be easier for people to just remember that they have "Mana" instead of X points. Character sheets can all have just "Mana" on them. That's all I can think of for the time being.

[Username17]

Incidentally, can you provide any example of a game with multiclassing and multiple resource management schemes where you think they actually did a good job with them?

Sure. Final Fantasy XI. You have a job, and you have a sub-job. And if you take a subjob that uses mana, you get bonus mana and if you take a subjob that uses on of the other resource management systems, then you use that on top of whatever you do with your main job.

And yeah, not every job/subjob combination is viable, but there are a lot of combinations that are viable. And if you're a Black Mage subWhite Mage you have a lot of mana to cast your various spells with; and if you're a Black Mage subNinja you have less mana and you also have a pile of ninja gadgets to use your numbered ninja tricks with.

This is totally possible, and it makes the different classes feel more unique and special. And most of the fail subjob combos are intuitively obvious (you would never subWarrior on a black mage because one of the big draws of subbing warrior is the ability to generate extra hate, which as a fragile nuker you don't even want).

-Username17

[Bobikus]

Incidentally, can you provide any example of a game with multiclassing and multiple resource management schemes where you think they actually did a good job with them?

Sure. Final Fantasy XI. You have a job, and you have a sub-job. And if you take a subjob that uses mana, you get bonus mana and if you take a subjob that uses on of the other resource management systems, then you use that on top of whatever you do with your main job.

And yeah, not every job/subjob combination is viable, but there are a lot of combinations that are viable. And if you're a Black Mage subWhite Mage you have a lot of mana to cast your various spells with; and if you're a Black Mage subNinja you have less mana and you also have a pile of ninja gadgets to use your numbered ninja tricks with.

This is totally possible, and it makes the different classes feel more unique and special. And most of the fail subjob combos are intuitively obvious (you would never subWarrior on a black mage because one of the big draws of subbing warrior is the ability to generate extra hate, which as a fragile nuker you don't even want).

-Username17

For all the things that annoy me in FFXI, the Main/Sub Job system was one of my favorite MMO class systems.

[MfA]

Sorry, but you're just wrong on this one. Increasing the complexity of rules interactions increases the time and skill required of the designer to make the game work (or work well), but it ALSO increases and time and skill required of the player in order to actually play the game.

Strictly speaking only for the player who chooses to play a multiclass character ...

The threshold varies from person to person, but every player will at some point decide that's too much work and walk away from your game.

Some of those people would simply chose not to play a multiclass character.

Some people will also walk away from a game which doesn't have enough complexity.

[Manxome]

Sure. Final Fantasy XI. You have a job, and you have a sub-job. And if you take a subjob that uses mana, you get bonus mana and if you take a subjob that uses on of the other resource management systems, then you use that on top of whatever you do with your main job.

Interesting; I've never looked at FF XI. That might be worth researching.

I will note, however, that "absolutely everyone has exactly 2 classes at all times" is not precisely what I meant by "flexible multiclassing". Furthermore, you can get away with enormously more complexity in a computer game than in a tabletop one, because the game doesn't collapse if the player's understanding of the rules is vague and/or slightly inaccurate.

I'm certainly not saying that every game should have flexible multiclassing; just that it places certain burdens on a game that does have it.

Some of those people would simply chose not to play a multiclass character.

And those people might as well be playing a game where multiclassing isn't allowed; this is just a well-disguised Oberoni Fallacy. "You can just not cast Polymorph."

Playing a single-class character because it has everything you want is a choice; playing one because the multi-class rules are unintelligible (to you) is obviously a design failure (for that audience).

Even ignoring that the much more likely failure mode is that the player tries to multi-class anyway, fails to have fun doing it, and blames the game.

Some people will also walk away from a game which doesn't have enough complexity.

It is my belief that such people don't exist, or are extremely rare. Lots of people will walk away from a game because it doesn't have (or doesn't appear to have) enough depth, variation, customizability, theme, or other desirable traits that generally can't be added without also increasing complexity, but complexity is the cost of adding those things, not a benefit.

I believe this because I was one of the people who thought that complexity was good when I was younger, but falsified that prediction as I played a broader range of games. There's still a certain minimum complexity below which I think it's safe to assume the game can't possibly have enough going on to be interesting, but it's pretty low on the grand scale. For example, the condensed rules for Dominion are about one page long (plus the cards; another page at most before expansions).

Raw complexity may at times keep a player (temporarily) because they're too bamboozled to see the problems with the game, but that's going beyond mere corner-cutting and flirting with outright fraud.

[shadzar]

Some of those people would simply chose not to play a multiclass character.

And those people might as well be playing a game where multiclassing isn't allowed; this is just a well-disguised Oberoni Fallacy. "You can just not cast Polymorph."

Playing a single-class character because it has everything you want is a choice

Except when that choice is taken away by a unified power system or 4th editions systems, where even the fighter has a spell list.

Oberoni in action, to state that you can just not pick a bunch of powers and smack things with your sword.

I dont remember the system, but maybe GURPS is close to it, where you choose powers and such, Hades knows 2.5 D&D had it with the skill points system, where you picked a bunch of crap, but sometimes you want too play where you dont have all that crap. Even 4th edition accepts that in its attempt to remove accounting and bookkeeping, wherein it moves al that to combat, rather than outside of combat.

SO a system forcing all those thing onto someone not wanting anything resembling those other classes in form or function, is removing the choice that existed for many to just quickly make up a character that can smack things with a sword. Other players will DEMAND that those other parts of the system be used.

Ergo the player wanting a simple single classed fighter, will likely quit, when the other crap is forced on them.

Unified, balanced, etc fails to be simple when it removes the ability for someone to play and need only that they know they can pick up a stick and beat things with it. They shouldnt have to be forced all that other crap on them.

[Echoes]

If a person can't be arsed to put in the minimum effort of choosing their own abilities, then they can fuck off. Or they can ask someone else to build their PC. I've done that for people who didn't really know the system but wanted to play, making all of the mechanical decisions (what classes/feats/etc to take) for them and then letting them run the character. It worked out ok, but I wouldn't have done it with a caster.

The problem with 4E martial types isn't that you get a choice of powers. It's that all of the choices are the same boring shit. That's a problem with 4E, not the resource management system.