"Bioware Neglected Their Main Demographic:The Straight Male"

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:51 pm

Kaelik wrote:
Gnosticism Is A Hoot wrote:Well, I tend to have relationships with women and casual sex with men. (neither, alas, as often as I would like). I have been told that this means I'm not 'really' bi, because bi guys should have relationships with men and women equally. I think this opinion is 'full of shit', but whatever.

As far as video games are concerned...yeah, straight men aren't lacking for eye candy or romance options. Gay men get it the worst in this respect - often, games which go so far as to include lesbian romance options won't offer gay options, or the gay options will be less developed (Jade Empire, I am fucking well looking at you). Dragon Age avoided that problem, though I'd have preferred a non-twink gay romance option.

Does anyone remember if Baldur's Gate II had LGBT romance options? I haven't played that game in over a decade.
It didn't as released if I recall, but people straight up modded that in so fast you wouldn't know that if you played with mods at all.

IIRC the gay relationships were in the game as shipped but disabled. The most basic mods were to re-activate the original content.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:07 am

Alright, I'm calling it. It's been just over 24 hours, here are the results from across The Gaming Den, Brilliant Gameologists, Elliquiy, Gaia Online, Fetlife (Kinky and Geeky group only), Bad Dragon (for your own sanity, do not check out what that site is), Penny Arcade and Bioware, 400 people voted, with a result of 239 straight males and 161 people identifying themselves as something else. Clearly the assertion that most gamers are straight males is upheld by the results, and with a roughly 1.5:1 ratio.

Bad Dragon's poll was lost when the thread was collapsed into another one sometime last night. Bioware's poll was originally a post poll like here, which was closed, then was restarted as an actual poll. The data from PA that I'm using is only the poll added by ElJeffe. All data accumulated is included for posterity.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:17 am

On the other hand, the dude was claiming that like 90% of Bioware players are straight men, which is clearly false. Especially since I'm sure Bioware's audience is more female than the constituency of gaming websites.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:14 pm

Starmaker, I have no idea what your link means.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:16 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:Alright, I'm calling it. It's been just over 24 hours, here are the results from across The Gaming Den, Brilliant Gameologists, Elliquiy, Gaia Online, Fetlife (Kinky and Geeky group only), Bad Dragon (for your own sanity, do not check out what that site is), Penny Arcade and Bioware, 400 people voted, with a result of 239 straight males and 161 people identifying themselves as something else. Clearly the assertion that most gamers are straight males is upheld by the results, and with a roughly 1.5:1 ratio.

Bad Dragon's poll was lost when the thread was collapsed into another one sometime last night. Bioware's poll was originally a post poll like here, which was closed, then was restarted as an actual poll. The data from PA that I'm using is only the poll added by ElJeffe. All data accumulated is included for posterity.

No straight male responses from Facebook. Color me not surprised.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:21 pm

well, I have a straight male friend or two (so far as I know) that are gamers, they just didn't answer the poll. Even though one of them did comment on it...

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:51 pm

I think Starmaker's link means that there is a certain male demographic that likes the idea of all tough, independent women actually needing a strong male for them to rely on and that they can be that man. That in fact there is no such thing as an independent woman and that all women really want a cock inside them. The alternative is that there is a large proportion of males that like their women to cry in pain (physical/emotional/etc) during sex.

In men it would be the man crying big, fat tears as he tries to keep an erection long enough to penetrate you while you are patting his head and saying that erectile dysfunction is normal and happens to every man.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:12 pm

Okay, but why is that specifically a straight male fantasy? I mean, it does get really nasty when you put gender politics in it but the basic template of 'steely-nerved hardass turns into a bundle of wuv and tears when faced with real affection' happens in both M/M and F/F stories as well.

PoliteNewb · Post by **PoliteNewb** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:32 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Okay, but why is that specifically a straight male fantasy? I mean, it does get really nasty when you put gender politics in it but the basic template of 'steely-nerved hardass turns into a bundle of wuv and tears when faced with real affection' happens in both M/M and F/F stories as well.

Really? Examples? I've never seen any (especially the M/M). Does it ever happen F/M (i.e. the male is the one who breaks down with a woman)?

I think the particular example in this case seemed egregious because all the male hardasses didn't turn out to have a gooey, broken center...just the chick.

PoliteNewb · Post by **PoliteNewb** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:40 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Judging by the posts in this thread, most of the "bi" males are effectively straight males who were at one point bi-curious or even just find some men attractive. In other words, enough to sound open minded ('we're all shades of gay') without walking the walk. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Frank wrote:I believe in this case you can be talking the talk but until you're sucking the cock you're not walking the walk.

I don't think it's especially fair to say you're not "really" gay/bi unless you're actually out there with the dick in your mouth. Wouldn't that exclude a number of virgin/closeted homosexuals? Frankly, just the desire seems enough to me...if you've never had sex with a man, but men get you hard and women don't, I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're gay, even if you're not "walking the walk".

I have no problem self-identifying as "bi-curious"...I just wasn't sure where that fit on the poll, in terms of straight vs. bi. And yeah, I actually find the "we're all shades of gay" to be fairly accurate...hence my inquiry as to where along that continuum you move from the "straight" box to the "bi" box to the "gay" box, and my assertion that the boxes don't really serve any useful purpose.

(oh, and for the record, no I didn't reply to the poll itself)

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:17 am

PoliteNewb wrote: Really? Examples? I've never seen any (especially the M/M). Does it ever happen F/M (i.e. the male is the one who breaks down with a woman)?

This happens ALL of the time in yaoi, which I'm not a big fan of, to the point where tvtropes actually has a name for this. Someone might NTS that by saying that yaoi caters to a heteronormative female audience, but I say that they're just being dumb. It happens less often in bara, but that's because that genre is mostly comprised of plotless fucking. But Legend of the Blue Wolves totally has the whole 'strong man gets raped, retreats to his lover for CUDDLES and COMFORT SEX' plot.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:38 am

PoliteNewb wrote:I don't think it's especially fair to say you're not "really" gay/bi unless you're actually out there with the dick in your mouth. Wouldn't that exclude a number of virgin/closeted homosexuals? Frankly, just the desire seems enough to me...if you've never had sex with a man, but men get you hard and women don't, I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're gay, even if you're not "walking the walk".

How would you know if you really are of any sexual orientation until you've tried it out? Defining an important part of your identity around your opinion of something you haven't experienced is retarded.

You could take that sentiment out of context and point out that most religions are based around defining yourself by your opinion of the afterdeath. I'm not going to debate whether my straw man is stupid or not, but sex? Really?

Plebian · Post by **Plebian** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:42 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
PoliteNewb wrote:I don't think it's especially fair to say you're not "really" gay/bi unless you're actually out there with the dick in your mouth. Wouldn't that exclude a number of virgin/closeted homosexuals? Frankly, just the desire seems enough to me...if you've never had sex with a man, but men get you hard and women don't, I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're gay, even if you're not "walking the walk".
How would you know if you really are of any sexual orientation until you've tried it out? Defining an important part of your identity around your opinion of something you haven't experienced is retarded.

You could take that sentiment out of context and point out that most religions are based around defining yourself by your opinion of the afterdeath. I'm not going to debate whether my straw man is stupid or not, but sex? Really?

I don't need to dress up in bondage gear to know that it doesn't excite me, and I don't need to date a guy to know I'm attracted to women.

Jilocasin · Post by **Jilocasin** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:47 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:How would you know if you really are of any sexual orientation until you've tried it out? Defining an important part of your identity around your opinion of something you haven't experienced is retarded.

You could take that sentiment out of context and point out that most religions are based around defining yourself by your opinion of the afterdeath. I'm not going to debate whether my straw man is stupid or not, but sex? Really?

Um, yeah, really. I have never done anything at all sexual with a woman and frankly even just the idea of doing so is gross to me. It doesn't seem ridiculous at all to me that we're able to identify within ourselves such a basic preference without necessarily experiencing any variation of that preference beforehand. Sure you can repress aspects but that doesn't mean recognition is impossible or even unlikely. I'm pretty firmly entrenched in number six territory.

Neeeek · Post by **Neeeek** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:36 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
PoliteNewb wrote: Really? Examples? I've never seen any (especially the M/M). Does it ever happen F/M (i.e. the male is the one who breaks down with a woman)?
This happens ALL of the time in yaoi, which I'm not a big fan of, to the point where tvtropes actually has a name for this. Someone might NTS that by saying that yaoi caters to a heteronormative female audience, but I say that they're just being dumb. It happens less often in bara, but that's because that genre is mostly comprised of plotless fucking. But Legend of the Blue Wolves totally has the whole 'strong man gets raped, retreats to his lover for CUDDLES and COMFORT SEX' plot.

Hmm. Thinking about it, I've done this twice, IRL. Not the rape thing, but just "holy crap my life sucks and I'm freaking out". Shortly after both, the relationship I was in ended, and that was confirmably in one of the two cases why.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:40 am

on the gray sexuality thing. I totally let a gay man give me a massage last night. It was a win win situatiion.
1) He's hot for my bod and will take whatever touching he can get
2) I fucking needed a massage and he was damn good. Probably took out two months of stress knots.

Being straight doesn't mean you won't flirt with a gay man to get a massage.

Almaz · Post by **Almaz** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:16 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:How would you know if you really are of any sexual orientation until you've tried it out? Defining an important part of your identity around your opinion of something you haven't experienced is retarded.

You could take that sentiment out of context and point out that most religions are based around defining yourself by your opinion of the afterdeath. I'm not going to debate whether my straw man is stupid or not, but sex? Really?

I cannot believe that people argue this in good faith because people in my observations pretty much only ever use this to argue for their companions to be straight-er. I will then notice them cite studies that show that sexual experience and even interest in that sexual experience does not necessarily qualify you as gay or straight... to point out that you're probably straight, not bi or gay. But never have I seen the other way around.

I am familiar with this pretty much from being on both sides of this argument. I've both made it, been subject of it, and later been ashamed of it. Now, if you by any chance are arguing in this good faith, this is possible and my apologies, but you are a unique phenomenon in my experience and thus about as alien to me as what crashed at Roswell. But I wonder, if you are, shouldn't you present this question to all the straight people who answered thusly in the poll first? Given that there is a lower frequency, from what I understand, of self-identified straight people experimenting with gay sex. But I could be wrong, I don't know how heterosexuality works, being queerer than a three dollar bill.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:36 am

I don't actually think I need to have sex with a man to determine that I don't want to. I don't see why anyone else should have to have sex with a man to decide that they do want to either.

-Username17

Neeeek · Post by **Neeeek** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:56 am

I've never known where to put myself on this sort of thing. I find the idea of homosexual sex attractive but I've never found an actual male attractive ever.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:37 am

Neeeek wrote:I've never known where to put myself on this sort of thing. I find the idea of homosexual sex attractive but I've never found an actual male attractive ever.

Pegging. That is all.

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:08 pm

Here's the thing. Stories have an effect on the audience beyond pure time-wasting. They establish morals and reinforce stereotypes.

Example. Russia has the highest rate of abortions in the world (because people are too dumb and/or poor to use contraception). Still, nowhere in Russian media the act of abortion is ever portrayed as a reasonable thing to do. Nooo, women who abort become tormented pariahs (or they were villains to begin with, but now become baby-eeeeating villains) and either repent and find god or suffer a horrible fate by the end of the story. Does this happen in real life? Sure. Is this a good trend in media? FUCK NO.

On a more related note, I've read about a study on the psychological consequences of child molestation. The study itself found that two of three people who were molested as children are psychologically healthy, lead normal and happy lives and in general suffer no ill consequences as adults. After publishing the study, the researcher was accused of defending pedos. The sane interpretation of the data is of course that "if you don't wake up screaming, you haven't really suffered" people are full of shit.

Now, these things happen. Cuddling and cutting and bawwwing and running mascara are all responses that real people display. On the other hand, overcoming the horror and feeling okay is also a response that people display, a preferred one in fact. And it's up to the writers to decide which character to write up. And it just happens that a broken bird + nice guy is a straight male fantasy, much like a dumb bimbo is a straight male fantasy, and a knight in shining armor offering his heart to a middle-aged housewife or a tall dark and handsome dickgirl fucking what seems to be a kid (BUT HE'S REALLY 18 HE JUST LOOKS YOUNG YOU PERV!!!1!) are straight female fantasies (note to Lago: yes this shit is marketed at females, do a "what's your biological sex" poll on a thematic forum and everyone comes up "gay male" and also a liar).

Now (x2), books/games/movies are supposed to entertain. Stereotypes, even offensive ones, are popular. Here I am whining about the lack of strong women (and did I mention warrior dude/wizard chick?), and yet I wouldn't play an ugly original character (pregens are fine, though). So a compromise should be found between pleasing different factions of the fanbase and promoting positive social values. And if I don't like the balance the writers found, I accuse them of sexism or whatever, because stereotypes are bad: retarded nations, good at math nations, tiny dick nations, sensitive women, hissy-fit-throwing women, boy-raping gays (trufax: the Russian f-word equivalent is "pidaras" - "bundle of wood" doesn't look so bad in comparison, does it?), lesbian feminazis. I'm sick of this shit. I'm sick of hearing "These dudes are gay, but you wouldn't know it just by looking at them because they behave like normal people!" from those who claim to support gay rights. The more often underprivileged people are represented in media as sane and reasonable, the better.

clicky

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:23 pm

Jilocasin wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:How would you know if you really are of any sexual orientation until you've tried it out? Defining an important part of your identity around your opinion of something you haven't experienced is retarded.

You could take that sentiment out of context and point out that most religions are based around defining yourself by your opinion of the afterdeath. I'm not going to debate whether my straw man is stupid or not, but sex? Really?
Um, yeah, really. I have never done anything at all sexual with a woman and frankly even just the idea of doing so is gross to me. It doesn't seem ridiculous at all to me that we're able to identify within ourselves such a basic preference without necessarily experiencing any variation of that preference beforehand. Sure you can repress aspects but that doesn't mean recognition is impossible or even unlikely. I'm pretty firmly entrenched in number six territory.

If the closest you can bring yourself to having sex with a person is disgust at the thought, they probably don't factor into your sexuality (unless you're particularly twisted). If the closest you've gotten is 'I think I would like to have sex with someone of their gender', that's probably just an indication for further research.

Count Arioch the 28th · Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:29 pm

Starmaker wrote: or a tall dark and handsome dickgirl fucking what seems to be a kid (BUT HE'S REALLY 18 HE JUST LOOKS YOUNG YOU PERV!!!1!) are straight female fantasies (note to Lago: yes this shit is marketed at females, do a "what's your biological sex" poll on a thematic forum and everyone comes up "gay male" and also a liar).

o_O

I may be mistaken, but I've never met any straight females that had this fantasy...

At least, they haven't told me (which is perhaps a good thing because that's not really something I want to know from 99% of the population, male or female.)

Count Arioch the 28th · Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:38 pm

Neeeek wrote: Hmm. Thinking about it, I've done this twice, IRL. Not the rape thing, but just "holy crap my life sucks and I'm freaking out". Shortly after both, the relationship I was in ended, and that was confirmably in one of the two cases why.

reminds me of one of the short dating relationships I was in.

This girl was whiny, selfish, and needed constant reassurance. In all honesty, I was considering dumping her anyway. Well, one day we had a date, and that day I found out that one of my checks I submitted for deposit had bounced and I was about $100 in the hole, and I wouldn't have any money to pay my bills (which got straightened out, I knew the person that wrote the check and we got it straightened out). However, at the time I wasn't in the mood to deal with her bullcrap so I called and told her that I had to cancel because I was dealing with personal issues.

And the lovely lady told me I needed to "get the fuck over it" and I "didn't deserve to be coddled". You know, after propping her fucking ego up for two months at that point.

Some time later (real soon after I started dating the lady I'm dating now), she texted me and tried to get some casual sex from me. She was not happy that I suggested a hitachi wand massager and that I was seeing someone much better.

Also, her and another woman I dated taught me a hard lesson: It is not possible to un-fuck someone.

PoliteNewb · Post by **PoliteNewb** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:08 pm

I don't actually think I need to have sex with a man to determine that I don't want to. I don't see why anyone else should have to have sex with a man to decide that they do want to either.

This.

Neeek wrote:I've never known where to put myself on this sort of thing. I find the idea of homosexual sex attractive but I've never found an actual male attractive ever.

I'm...curious how that works. What, exactly, do you find attractive about homosex if it isn't men? I mean, dick-sucking and anal are both things that can be done without the involvement of real, actual men (as Draco points out). Ain't modern technology grand?
If it's not about men, then you just enjoy the idea of being penetrated...and despite what western culture wants to tell you, there's nothing particularly gay about that, honestly.

I'm kind of interested in the idea of anal, but it sounds so...messy, in real life. OTOH, sucking cock totally appeals to me (under the right circumstances).

"Bioware Neglected Their Main Demographic:The Straight Male"

What is your gender and orientation?