Wish Economy

[Koumei]

Oh snap, you're right. So it is in fact 25K to 50lbs, with Platinum.

[fectin]

That aside, I'm pretty sure the 15k limit is based around the carrying load of a Greater Teleport SLA.

The earliest essay I've seen on the wish economy said 15k seemed to be sort of a magic number, and it mentioned balors casting greater teleport back to back with the 3.0 version of wish.

Limited wish has no conversion to gold now. So regardless of what a normal conversion is, adding any conversion at all to it is strictly an improvement. So from that perspective, I think you can set it anywhere you want. So, from a game perspective, what is the right number to put there? And is it a good change in the first place?

Any number of wishes is infinite wishes, as one of the things you can wish for is a scroll of planar binding, or a casting of planar binding.

Under the (admittedly notional) changes I made up, I don't think you can turn limited wishes into real wishes, so I'm not sure what the relevance is here. Could you walk me through your impact?

[RadiantPhoenix]

Limited wish can duplicate 6th level wizard spells, such as planar binding, unless you banned conjuration.

[fectin]

Bumping efreeti HD to 13 means you need greater planar binding.

[RadiantPhoenix]

What's your point? We could just say "wish can't give magic items" if we want, and all of a sudden there's no "problem"

[LR]

What's your point? We could just say "wish can't give magic items" if we want, and all of a sudden there's no "problem"

The planar economy is predicated on lesser magic items being as worthless as gold. You could just declare that gold can't buy any kind of magic item, but then you'd have people selling souls for Feather Tokens.

[wotmaniac]

ARGH!
am I the only one who has fundamental issues with the whole efreet-binding thing?
doesn't "the scorpion and the toad" spring to mind here?
Here's a little discussion I already tried to have on that topic.

[fectin]

Yes, actually, you are.
Five minutes out of an efreet's day to give him a wish is a really good deal for him. Getting summoned by a mortal wizard is like winning the efreeti lottery.
Of course, if you're a dick about it, it's more like they're getting pulled over for speeding (but let go with a warning). This is not something they're going to get up in arms about.

Besides, check your sources. In the Arabian Nights, djinni and efreeti were trustworthy servants. The conflict came pretty much entirely from other people stealing the lamp/ring/whatever, or from Solomon pranking people. The few untrustworthy djinni were pretty much explicitly called out as insane (specifically from long imprisonment, which doesn't apply to called creatures).

[wotmaniac]

I don't care about Arabian Nights; mainly because I'm not talking about Arabian Nights.
I'm talking about D&D efreet, and their MM description.

Yes, I'm fully aware of the origins; I am also fully aware that 99.9% of stuff in D&D is just ripped from other places -- sometimes it's re-fluffed, sometimes not. But I don't care about "inspirational" or "historical" sources -- I'm specifically talking about the D&D version as printed.

It was also a pretty good deal for the scorpion for the frog to take him across the river, but that didn't stop him from killing the frog when they got to the other side.

[Leress]

Just use charm monster, problem solved.

[Username17]

The Scorpion and the Frog is a fucking stupid children's story that doesn't have anything to do with how anything works and is in no way indicative of social interactions involving lawfully aligned sapient creatures of genius level intelligence. You can take that argument and stuff it all the way up your ass.

But the Wish Economy isn't even about unlimited wishes. The unlimited wishes thing is fundamental flaw in the rules. Efreet aren't the only source of it either - just the most blatant and easiest to use in core. The point of the Wish economy is that things that can be wished for are fundamentally easier to get and therefore less interesting to high level people than items which require actual days of work by a powerful spellcaster.

The reality of magic item creation in 3.5 D&D is that you make 500 gold per day doing it. You make 500 gold per day making Rings of Minor Deflection, and you make 500 gold per day making a Ring of Blink. The bigger item is worth more but it takes proportionately more time. And if you lose the work, you're out more time and more startup cash. There just isn't any incentive for high level casters to make powerful magic items that they aren't going to use. They are literally and specifically better off making several magical trinkets in sequence than they are forging the one ring. Unless you posit the existence of higher tier economies, there is no reason to forge the higher end crap in the first place.

The Wish Economy isn't just about letting people find actual dragon hordes that don't insult us with their pissantry, although of course it does do that. It isn't just about letting players actually physically carry the fungible wealth required to make the purchases at high level that the game tells you you're supposed to be making, although it does that as well. Fundamentally, it's about grafting on a reason for the claimed economic transactions of high level gear to have a place at all. And it's a reasonably solid piece of reasoning. Wish can give you a 15k item in 6 seconds but a 30k item still has to be built the old fashioned way in a solid month - so it stands to reason that there would be a premium on the bigger item. Meanwhile, a Balor can only teleport with 30 pounds of currency, which happens to be 15000 gp worth of platinum. So it stands to reason that the purchasing power of actual metal coins would be reduced when trying to buy the bigger items.

So voile. Items over 15k demand higher prices (and thus payment in planar currency). Piles of metal over 15k experience diminishing returns (and thus couldn't be used to buy the things that cost planar currency). It's a very solid system, and I don't give a rat's ass about whether you think that player characters making deals with Genies is in character or not, because that has literally fuck all to do with Wish Economics.

-Username17

[Swordslinger]

The reality of magic item creation in 3.5 D&D is that you make 500 gold per day doing it. You make 500 gold per day making Rings of Minor Deflection, and you make 500 gold per day making a Ring of Blink. The bigger item is worth more but it takes proportionately more time. And if you lose the work, you're out more time and more startup cash. There just isn't any incentive for high level casters to make powerful magic items that they aren't going to use. They are literally and specifically better off making several magical trinkets in sequence than they are forging the one ring. Unless you posit the existence of higher tier economies, there is no reason to forge the higher end crap in the first place.

There reason for making bigger magic items is because that's what the customer wants. You can't just mass produce +1 swords and expect to sell all of them instantly. Some people are looking for +2 or +3 swords, others can't even afford the +1 at all. Yet other buyers would rather have a +1 adamantine sword. In fact, doing it this way is likely going to end up with the wizard taking a loss, because he has to sell half his merchandise to break even.

Magic items are such a big investment that you wouldn't often get wizards just making them with no potential buyer, everything besides the common healing potions/wands are going to have to be commissioned. Even potions and wands you probably don't stock extensively. Magic item sales are rare things.

Doing it this way is good for a couple reasons.

First, you deter people trying to rob you, because there isn't much inventory to steal.

Second, You aren't wasting money making items you may never sell.

The 50% value for sold goods in 3E is actually very generous when considering the risks of dealing with magical goods.

[Bobikus]

A high level wizard can travel extensively among the infinite planes and find infinite customers of whatever. He can also planeshift to Celestia and pick up buckets of gems from the ground. He's not going to make any high value items unless commissioned by someone that seeks him out specifically, and those who need such items will have something more interesting than mundane gold and platinum to barter with.

[wotmaniac]

The Scorpion and the Frog is a fucking stupid children's story that doesn't have anything to do with how anything works and is in no way indicative of social interactions involving lawfully aligned sapient creatures of genius level intelligence. You can take that argument and stuff it all the way up your ass.

wow frank, hows about you tell me how you really feel -- you're being a bit vague.

the mention of the parable was simply as an analogy of why you shouldn't try to diplomize an efreeti (a topic which seemed to have cropped up). And I stand by it, regardless of how little you may happen to think of it (unless, of course, you are prepared to attempt to disabuse me of such a notion).

My original question was simply on how the 15k was derived. From everything I can tell, it seems like it should be 25k (the spell says 25K; 50 pounds of platinum is 25K; etc.). It was simple and honest curiosity .... I was trying to establish a frame of reference as to why 15k needed to be used, as opposed to 25k.

[DSMatticus]

This isn't a matter of diplomacy, this is a matter of simple cost-benefit. It is seriously in the efreeti's best interests to deal with you (especially if you throw one of those wishes its way). It's not like you're bothering him - you are offering him the chance to use one of the most powerful abilities in the world directly for himself, something he cannot otherwise do. As long as his wish is last, trying to screw you over with the first two is a bad idea. And this completely ignores the idea of dominating him or charming him or any other good crap. He will probably give you his name, and ask you to call him up tomorrow, so he can keep getting wishes out of you (and you get wishes out of him).

Efreeti's do not have the supernatural ability, "will ignore magical coercion to satiate a Gygaxian addiction to being an asshole, even when it makes absolutely no sense." They are super-intelligent, and they understand that you depend on them for massed wishes, so you're never going to directly oppose them. And on the flip side, as long as you are compensating them (i.e., giving them one of their own wishes), they stand nothing to do but PROFIT from your interactions. And if you think a lawful evil super-genius will turn down pure profit to be an asshole, that's stupid and makes no sense.

The moral of the scorpion and the toad is stupid and wrong: if the scorpion needs a ride back tomorrow, you can trust him not to stab you. As long as the relationship is mutually beneficial, there is no backstabbing unless you're dealing with a raving lunatic or a moron, of which Efreeti are neither.

[Swordslinger]

A high level wizard can travel extensively among the infinite planes and find infinite customers of whatever. He can also planeshift to Celestia and pick up buckets of gems from the ground. He's not going to make any high value items unless commissioned by someone that seeks him out specifically, and those who need such items will have something more interesting than mundane gold and platinum to barter with.

The problem is that while you can go anywhere, you don't know where your customers are. There's no interdimensional craigslist that exists for selling/buying magic items. Yeah you can go randomly jumping around asking questions, but chances are the majority of your time will be looking for potential buyers as opposed to making the item. I mean really, how often do you think people buy a +3 sword?

It's a heck of a lot easier to just let the buyers come to you and then make the exact item they're looking for, as opposed to having an inventory of items and being a traveling magemart.

As for the buckets of gems, anything that easily available won't be expensive, because the very reason gems are expensive is due to rarity. If gold or a certain type of gem is no longer rare, then it becomes less valuable. Your bucket of infinite gems may only have a value in copper pieces, because long ago an enterprising wizard already flooded the market with them and the market has adapted. So maybe they're as valuable as steel or copper now.

A precious metal or gemstone that becomes commonplace loses its status as a precious item and becomes another material. People may want diamonds to make diamond arrowheads, but they'll no longer want them purely as a trade good. In fact, if they had no good use as a material in constructing things, then they become totally valueless.

Markets will naturally evolve towards a currency that can't be created with magic. The main problem with 3E is that the campaign settings and the core books themselves don't take into account what magic can do. If they did, then there would be serious devaluing of currency and gemstones. If no such currency is available, then markets will devolve into barter.

[LR]

...the spell says 25K...

If you're using one of the versions of Wish that hands you unlimited power. If you're not, then it most likely doesn't.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I love how this board gets completely sidetracked by stupid minutae as if 'winning' an argument against that disproves the bigger point at large.

[Bobikus]

The problem is that while you can go anywhere, you don't know where your customers are. There's no interdimensional craigslist that exists for selling/buying magic items. Yeah you can go randomly jumping around asking questions, but chances are the majority of your time will be looking for potential buyers as opposed to making the item. I mean really, how often do you think people buy a +3 sword?

Low level general use or common items such as potions, wands of cure wounds, and such could be simply sold in bulk to merchants. You play the supplier, not the store for lower items, while the more expensive items you only make on commission.

And considering the infinite and exotic nature of the planes, high level conjuring magic, etc, pretty much any mundane material could be flooded into markets and devalued. The only reason a lot of those items could have value in markets in the first place is because it's possible that many cities and even kingdoms on the material plane don't even have a mid-high level caster, let alone one still interested in trading mundane materials on the material planes.

[Psychic Robot]

I love how this board gets completely sidetracked by stupid minutae as if 'winning' an argument against that disproves the bigger point at large.

hi this is the internet and we're arguing about d&d

[DSMatticus]

As for the buckets of gems, anything that easily available won't be expensive, because the very reason gems are expensive is due to rarity. If gold or a certain type of gem is no longer rare, then it becomes less valuable.

No. Or rather, yes, but the conclusion doesn't follow. Your assumption that the market is flooded by wizards hauling gems back and forth implies that the market has ANYTHING wizards that powerful want. And it should be painfully obvious that it doesn't, since wizards can also create mansions, homes, and servants for free. Precious metals and gems stay precious because wizards have never bothered to go on spending sprees, because there is absolutely nothing a wizard can find worth buying that they can't make better with magic.

The fact that Bob the Wizard has a theoretically infinite supply of virtually every mundane thing you can imagine by chain-binding efreeti doesn't effect the economy, because Bob the Wizard will never do that - the efreeti chain-binding is more than capable of fulfilling his mundane desires directly. He simply does not effect the economy of others, because he isn't interacting with it in anyway. He has replaced the mundane economy in his life with direct magical creation, or occasionally throwing a handful of gold pieces from his adventuring days into the world.

I mean really, how often do you think people buy a +3 sword?

Does it matter? I can absolutely guarantee it's less than the number of people who will buy +1 swords. And because it's less than the number of people who buy +1 swords, you can increase your customer base hugely by producing +1 swords. And because the profit-per-time is identical for +1 swords and +3 swords, the only variable in how much money you make is, "how quickly can I sell this?" Which means we only care about customer base. And as is obvious, the cheaper it is the more people can afford it and voila.

Ye Olde Magic Shops can exist, but they pretty much only have magic trinkets. There are no wizards you can commission for powerful magic items, and they certainly don't take commissions in which you pay them with something they can magic into existence for free.

[K]

I think I picked 15K because it was a good midpoint in the weapon and armor prices, big enough for interesting misc. items, was the old 3.0 Wish limit, and comfortably below the minimum price for a Staff of Wishes with one charge (which can be quite low with minimal optimizing).

The whole thing about the carrying capacities of Balors is fascinating, but off the mark.

Unlimited wealth loops of nearly unlimited kinds, the prevention of players playing Merchants and Dragons for power, and dragon hoards that I can carry in a backpack are the reasons behind the pressing need for the Wish economy. It was never about specific broken combos since those could be spot fixed.

I mean, the instant you forget that players will Greyhawk a 30-ton obsidian statue of a frog for vast magic power, the whole WBL of DnD 3.X falls to shit.

[fectin]

If you were designing a Dnd wealth system whole cloth, instead of rewickering the existing one via the Wish economy, what are some things you'd think about?

[DSMatticus]

Hm. If you want players to be able to turn wealth into power (and that seems like it HAS to be true - magic items are wealth, and magic items give power), you need some way to ensure that characters don't abuse wealth to obtain power drastically beyond what is expected.

A tiered system works best. Create different economies the players can gradually move into.

1-7: Gold tier
8-14: Planar mumbo jumbo
15-20: Something even more epic

No amount of anything from a lower tier will ever buy something from a higher tier. Items have prices listed in the currency of the appropriate tier (so minor magic items have prices listed in gold pieces, medium magic items have prices listed in planar mumbo jumbo, and major magic items have prices listed in something even more epic).

And then it's just a matter of picking the right numbers for things, and making sure things from the gold economy are basically free for level 8's, and things from either of the two lesser economies are free for level 15's.

[wotmaniac]

was the old 3.0 Wish limit,

ah -- that's what I was looking for. Now the 15k makes sense -- thank you.
I've never owned a 3.0 anything, nor have I spent any time on the 3.0 SRD.

and like you said, everything else can indeed be spot fixed.