Cryptocurrency: is it worth it?

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Post by K »

Vnonymous wrote:If you do things right you can make some serious money off of Bitcoin. The project has gotten enough momentum that the person in charge has been called in to speak for the CIA. They've also increased massively in value - the bitcoin faucet gave out 10 bitcoins at one point, which if you held on to until today would earn you something like 100 usd. They are essentially fiat dollars, yes, but fiat dollars in the form of computer data, which makes them infinitely more useful than fiat dollars from a given nation around the world(of course a given nation from around the world could happen to be Zimbabwe or Somalia so)

I'm actually personally going to be making money from bitcoins soon, because they are a form of currency that is completely untrackable and unmonitored by the government, and even when they do start looking, it is going to be as easy to stop as p2p filesharing. A friend of mine gets a student allowance that is cut off when he goes beyond a certain amount of savings - he's going to be paying me to turn that money into bitcoins, which will allow him to save money in a way the government can't actually track. The bitcoin market could collapse in the meantime, but I think bitcoins are going to become more and more valuable over time, barring them being made illegal by the government for some reason.
If you don't want the government to track your savings, why wouldn't you just put cash in a box under your bed or in a safety deposit box?

And here's a question: is there any way to turn bitcoins into cash other than finding another sucker to buy them from you?
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Post by name_here »

I'm wondering how exactly the system intends to prevent some jerk with a botnet from simply distributing a completely made-up set of blocks on a sufficiently massive scale to convince the overall network that they're real. It seems to take as a premise that no one will order a million computers to simultaneously attempt to screw with it. Given that people totally have done stuff like that, I'm not exactly brimming with confidence.
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Post by Cynic »

I know most offshore accounts are taxed these days. Obviously there exists offshore accounts that still evade taxes.

Cryptocurrency seems to be the sort of virtual currency that actually seems to have everyday function but isn't taxable.


Vebyast added earlier that there millions of dollars in the crypto market. THis isn't hard. By the look of it, mining generates money by speeding up other transactions. So, it's essentially possible that you train a server or two to act solely for the purpose of mining, and I'm sure someone with 15 bitcoins (arbitrary number) could make at least some money off of it.


This is my understanding of the currency. It somehow strikes me that what I just said is completely contrary to the running and use of bitcoin.

Also there seems to be something inherently strange with bitcoin. While there are about 5-6 other e-currencies, none of them seem to hold anywhere enough ground in the e-currency market as bitcoin.

Deregulation also seems to encourage monopolist tactics. As I read this topic and research it on my own, I become disappointed with bitcoin.

A decentralized market works but it still needs to operate within a series of rules that work globally and in conjunction other currencies. So it isn't just the case of 1 bitcoin = 11.7 USD. USD should be transferable into bitcoin and this needs to happen in an arena that isn't owned or dominated by bitcoin.
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Post by Koumei »

Great, so you can use it for buying drugs and committing fraud. All the while claiming it's because people are sick of the man interfering with their money.
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Post by Parthenon »

I just don't get exactly what a bitcoin is. From what I can tell you download a program onto your computer that calculates stuff and if it successfully finds a solution you get paid some bitcoins by the cloud of all the interconnected programs. However, it is possible to download the program, have it running 24/7 for weeks and not get any bitcoins, or have someone else find the solution just before you and make your processing time wasted.

Doesn't this reward people who have enough money to set a few servers to calculating and ignore the vast majority of people? They say themselves in the FAQs that only the high end GPUs are useful for making bitcoins. So basically I have little to no chance of making bitcoins myself.
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Post by Cynic »

Well you can always convert *insert currency here* into bitcoin and have it wander cyberspace as you try to find legit places to use it. I wonder if I could use it to play poker online in the states. Yes, this is the most diabolical thing I can think of...
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Post by MfA »

To a very small amount of insane people bitcoin is deemed valuable, to a small amount of people who want to take advantage of those insane people it is an opportunity ... to a great many trolls it's mana from heaven.
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Post by Vebyast »

Parthenon wrote:I just don't get exactly what a bitcoin is. From what I can tell you download a program onto your computer that calculates stuff and if it successfully finds a solution you get paid some bitcoins by the cloud of all the interconnected programs. However, it is possible to download the program, have it running 24/7 for weeks and not get any bitcoins, or have someone else find the solution just before you and make your processing time wasted.

Doesn't this reward people who have enough money to set a few servers to calculating and ignore the vast majority of people? They say themselves in the FAQs that only the high end GPUs are useful for making bitcoins. So basically I have little to no chance of making bitcoins myself.
First, instead of thinking about "a bitcoin", think about "a voucher for some number n of bitcoins, where n is any positive rational number". These vouchers can be infinitely combined and subdivided; for instance, this transaction takes three vouchers, combines them, and then splits the total into two vouchers that are then given to different people.

Vouchers are transferred whenever someone creates and publishes a "block", which is a chunk of cryptographically-secure transactions with some random numbers thrown in so that the entire thing (if viewed as a sequence of bits) has a particular and very, very, very special property that is equally rare. "Mining a block" means that you find a set of the random numbers such that the block has that special property. Finding this set of random numbers is almost impossible; the protocol tunes the difficulty so that it takes the combined effort of every bitcoin miner on Earth ten minutes to find a valid set of these random numbers. Blocks that don't have valid numbers are rejected. Blocks that have valid numbers are accepted by the network and the transactions in them become "real".

To convince people to create blocks, there's a reward for doing so. In particular, the network lets you create a voucher for fifty bitcoins out of thin air and give it to yourself. You also collect any transaction fees people have paid to thank you for crunching all the numbers to move their vouchers around.

Now, going back to finding random numbers to mine a block. It turns out that the special property is special in such a way that the only way to find random numbers is pure guess-and-check; there are no heuristics or "guidelines". This means that anybody can just randomly generate a block, but the people most likely to find a block are the ones with the most computational power and the most guess-and-checks per second.

One way for average people to get around this is to join a cooperative-mining pool. Basically, you and a thousand other people cooperate to find a block and split the profit when you do. It may have taken you a year to find a block (and $500 in bitcoins) by yourself, but since you're raising the pool's chance of rolling a natural 6549873254 by some small amount, you get a cut of the money.

Cynic wrote:I wonder if I could use it to play poker online in the states. Yes, this is the most diabolical thing I can think of...
Yup.

name_here wrote:I'm wondering how exactly the system intends to prevent some jerk with a botnet from simply distributing a completely made-up set of blocks on a sufficiently massive scale to convince the overall network that they're real.
First, the original paper calculates the amount of computational power that would be required to do this, and how much power you have. It turns out that you'd have to control more than 50% of the entire computational power of the bitcoin network. I'd guess that, right now, Bitcoin is something like the most powerful computation on the planet. Good luck.

You also really can't do very much with it.

You know, I should really just sign up for that TA position. I find far too much entertainment value in just explaining things to people.
Last edited by Vebyast on Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:34 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by sabs »

I still don't get why anyone thinks that randomly generated numbers created by computational time is /worth/ anything.

At least money is made from cotton.
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Post by Parthenon »

No, I still don't get it. This has made it even more complicated.

So there are a number of computers throwing out random numbers, and if they meet a specific criteria based on how many computers are currently generating random numbers they create a block and give the computer that generated the random number a voucher for bitcoins. Bitcoins are now... something?

From what I understand there is specifically one block made every ten minutes, even if all the computers in the world generate random numbers that meet the criteria. Is that right? If so the whole thing is a fucked up lottery.
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Post by Vnonymous »

People are perfectly willing to accept US dollars as payment. Bitcoin is worth exactly as much(nothing), and has a whole host of properties which make it more convenient to use, impossible to be governmentally tracked, and you can make it yourself with extravagant computing hardware.

People are already willing to exchange bitcoins for money in massive amounts, too. 10 000 in bitcoins a few months ago would have made a very nice profit.
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Post by Vebyast »

Parthenon wrote:So there are a number of computers throwing out random numbers, and if they meet a specific criteria based on how many computers are currently generating random numbers they create a block and give the computer that generated the random number a voucher for bitcoins. Bitcoins are now... something?
Sort of. One bitcoin corresponds directly to some (large, variable) amount of computation; given a bitcoin and told what the difficulty value for it was, I can tell you roughly how many cycles it took to generate that bitcoin. It's still a mathematical construct given value only by agreement, but the mathematical construct is set up to ensure that that value stays safe and is affected only by economics.

If you're asking about whether a bitcoin corresponds to a physical thing, we get into philosphy. A bitcoin is just as much a "thing" as "War and Peace" is a thing or a prime number is a thing - it's a chunk of information floating around in math-land that we associate properties and value with.
Parthenon wrote:From what I understand there is specifically one block made every ten minutes, even if all the computers in the world generate random numbers that meet the criteria. Is that right? If so the whole thing is a fucked up lottery.
That's true, and bitcoin mining is a kind of lottery. There are ways to reduce the risk (pooled miners, for example, get a thousand people to coordinate and then split the profits; the largest pool right now contributes something like one in four blocks), and since every block mined is currently about 17 dollars (bloody hell it's increasing fast this week), that's about 750USD per block. In other words, even if you only get one block every ten days, you're still making minimum wage. So it's not a bad lottery; for example, I mined myself out a bitcoin last month so that if the thing exploded I'd make some money.

Second, while mining may be a lottery; the majority of bitcoin use isn't. For example, you can exchange currencies to and from BTC using Mt Gox, and any site on this list accepts bitcoins for payments.
Last edited by Vebyast on Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Doom »

It's curious that the price is rising even though ever more bitcoins are being created. Granted, the US dollar is ever falling, but that's a big move.

Do you have any data showing that bitcoin usage is spiking a great deal, particularly, right now?
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Post by Vebyast »

Yes. There are a few different ways.

First, number of unique IPs seen on the network over time. There are about 16k nodes using bitcoin right now, up from 8k in about mid-May. Note that these stats aren't really reliable, since Bitcoin is a p2p network.

Another metric is "bitcoin days destroyed". One bitcoin-day is a bitcoin that has remained unspent for one day. Spending 50 bitcoins that have been saved for a year would be something like 15k bitcoin days destroyed; spending 50 bitcoins that have been saved for 12 hours would be 25 bitcoin days destroyed. Unfortunately, I can't find any charts showing this stat to link to. Sorry.

A last chart (albeit a really terrible one, info-vis people hide your eyes) is here. You have to hover over it and check the blue number to see how many transactions per day are occurring, and the bitcoins-transferred stat is utterly useless because of how it's measured. However, the number of transactions per day has roughly doubled in the last month. It also unfortunately doesn't include stats for the last few days, which are the interesting bits.
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Post by K »

It would be funny to me if this ended up being a government project to crowdsource code-breaking.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Which government, though? My brother has the opinion that America has been at war over the internet with both China and Iran for some time, and he thinks that a lot of this stuff is done by secret agents trying to manipulate the American people into doing the work for them.
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Post by sabs »

And Bitcoins are not nontaxable, they are just NOT currently taxed.
It would be trivial to tax them. Additionally, as soon as you 'sell' a bitcoin for actual USD.. then they become taxable income.
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Post by name_here »

Okay, so that statement about bitcoin being the most powerful network in existence earlier in the thread? That's completely wrong. I rather expect a botnet claims that title, but it's possible some intelligence agency has quality over quantity. Regardless, 16K computers is not anything like 1 million computers.
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Post by Vebyast »

name_here wrote:Okay, so that statement about bitcoin being the most powerful network in existence earlier in the thread? That's completely wrong. I rather expect a botnet claims that title, but it's possible some intelligence agency has quality over quantity. Regardless, 16K computers is not anything like 1 million computers.
I'll cite my sources, then. Bitcoin clocks in around 50 petaflops and is running 24/7. The most powerful supercomputer (as of last month) in the world barely equals that, and from experience on similar systems I can tell you that its uptime is way less than Bitcoin's.

The thing to remember about botnets is that they're A) not set up for distributed computing, B) not used for distributed computing, and C) not using the GPU or even the entire CPU. The vast majority of the bitcoin miners out there is using their entire GPU, and GPUs are way, way faster than CPUs for distributed computations.


sabs wrote:And Bitcoins are not nontaxable, they are just NOT currently taxed.
It would be trivial to tax them. Additionally, as soon as you 'sell' a bitcoin for actual USD.. then they become taxable income.
Erm, tell me again how you tax a bitcoin transaction when you don't know who is sending them, don't know who is receiving them, can't break their crypto, and can't threaten the sender or receiver because you have no idea where they are?

They do become vulnerable when they get cashed out, though, which is why you use them to buy services instead of USD. Use them as actual currency, in other words, instead of just a vehicle for speculation.
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Post by Cynic »

sabs wrote:And Bitcoins are not nontaxable, they are just NOT currently taxed.
I.
So you mean to say.


YOu realize that nontaxable income has become taxable over time.

I don't mean all nontaxable income, but a lot are taxable.

For example off-shore accounts. Unless you get one of the few states that don't comply with us taxation laws, your off-shore accounts are taxed.

Now move this back 15-20 years ago, and you would see that they weren't taxed.
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Post by name_here »

Vebyast wrote: I'll cite my sources, then. Bitcoin clocks in around 50 petaflops and is running 24/7. The most powerful supercomputer (as of last month) in the world barely equals that, and from experience on similar systems I can tell you that its uptime is way less than Bitcoin's.
So, the NSA could probably do it. Admittedly, running on a cryptographic algorithm created by the NSA basically means they're counting on that not happening anyhow, because anyone who says they believe the NSA released an algorithm they knew they couldn't break is someone with more faith in the government than people who would create bitcoin.
The thing to remember about botnets is that they're A) not set up for distributed computing, B) not used for distributed computing, and C) not using the GPU or even the entire CPU. The vast majority of the bitcoin miners out there is using their entire GPU, and GPUs are way, way faster than CPUs for distributed computations.
Botnets can be made to download whatever software, so it's not like they can't be re-purposed. Admittedly, they do seem to have mostly avoided the "botnets can crush the network simply by having enough members claiming complete bullshit without bothering with ensuring the data is valid" problem by instead risking computer errors causing members to disagree on reality, which is admittedly a much safer assumption.



One thing I'm entirely lost on is how they have complete anonymity and allow people to retain bitcoins while switching IP addresses. How does that work?
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Post by DSMatticus »

name_here wrote:Admittedly, running on a cryptographic algorithm created by the NSA basically means they're counting on that not happening anyhow, because anyone who says they believe the NSA released an algorithm they knew they couldn't break is someone with more faith in the government
Welcome to math. It has facts and proofs. Your conspiracy theories are useless here.
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Post by Vebyast »

DSMatticus wrote:Welcome to math. It has facts and proofs. Your conspiracy theories are useless here.
Well, it is possible that the NSA has a constructive proof of P=NP and has somehow managed to prevent a weakly godlike intelligent construct from taking over the world's information technology. I find it unlikely, however.

K wrote:It would be funny to me if this ended up being a government project to crowdsource code-breaking.
That would be hilarious, yeah. Unfortunately, we know what data we're putting in, and we know what we're getting out, so it's... unlikely. As DSMatticus says, this is math.
name_here wrote:One thing I'm entirely lost on is how they have complete anonymity and allow people to retain bitcoins while switching IP addresses. How does that work?
That's what public-key cryptography is for. Short explanation: you can generate key-pairs, which are huge random numbers with very special properties. Imagine the "private key" as the key for a padlock, and the "public key" as the padlock corresponding to the private key. You publish the public key so that anybody can see it. You keep the private key to yourself.
There are two main operations associated with key pairs:
  • Encrypt something so that only one person can read it. In this case, you look up that person's padlock, snap it onto your letter, and send the letter out into the world. The padlock can't be opened without that person's key, so only the intended recipient can read the letter.
  • "Sign" something so that you can prove that you wrote it. This can't be explained cleanly because reality doesn't reflect math very well here, but the closest idea is that of the wax seal. You take your letter and stamp it with your private key somehow. Your padlock and private key are constructed so that someone can look at the padlock, look at the wax seal, and verify that the private key corresponding to the padlock was used to create the seal. It's complicated.
So, instead of going by IP addresses, the system goes by "bitcoin addresses" and their associated key pairs. The address itself is in fact derived from the public key; you can construct the address given the public key and you can verify that a given address corresponds to a given public key.

Since public keys correspond directly to bitcoin addresses and vice-versa, a transaction is essentially a public statement, signed by private key A, that some number of bitcoins have been transferred from public key A to public key B. The key features here:
  • You can verify A's identity by checking the signature on the transaction against A's public key; if it checks out, then A's private key was almost certainly used to create the transaction, and it's a very good bet that it's actually A ordering the transaction using their own private key.
  • You can calculate how much money B has by totaling up all valid transactions to B's address or public key, because all transactions are public.
Basically, your "identity" is your giant bag full of private keys. If you have the private key for a bitcoin address, you can spend money out of that address in a cryptographically verifiable, secure manner, by creating and broadcasting a transaction that is very, very, very unlikely to be valid unless you have the private key for the address. The system is secure because every single transaction in history is publicly viewable and cryptographically secure; you can practically trace individual bitcoins all the way back to when they were first mined. The trick is that there's no way to tell what real-world entity holds the private keys to a given address. For example, the address "1KBU1ZLJ3oHCeYhE1kV3AXhjoSaqpxibsV" could belong to anybody; it could be me, it could be you, it could be some random guy in Russia. All we know is that there's some person floating around out there that has a private key that can spend bitcoins that have been sent to that address. Security, verifiability, and anonymity, all at once.
Last edited by Vebyast on Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

This is literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I mean, digital gold was fucking retarded, but this is somehow even more retarded.

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Post by Koumei »

I think it's hilarious.

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