There's a 3rd Edition Mutants & Masterminds?!

[Dogbert]

You don't have to beat a 10, you have to beat a 10+Enemy Grapple Bonus.

2 opponents within the same league (2 super-strong people or 2 acrobats, etc. mainly, the only kind of opponent with whom it makes sense to handle grappling as a conflict rather than as a Win Button), and so with similar strength, only need around ~10 on the die because their Str is similar and both modifiers near cancel each other out. Anyone with an abacus can see this.

Quoting a PF post on this site: A wrestler could own a geek in grappling, but if he found another wrestler, they'd just duke it out in fisticuffs, because that actually works.

[Juton]

You don't have to beat a 10, you have to beat a 10+Enemy Grapple Bonus.

2 opponents within the same league (2 super-strong people or 2 acrobats, etc. mainly, the only kind of opponent with whom it makes sense to handle grappling as a conflict rather than as a Win Button), and so with similar strength, only need around ~10 on the die because their Str is similar and both modifiers near cancel each other out. Anyone with an abacus can see this.

Quoting a PF post on this site: A wrestler could own a geek in grappling, but if he found another wrestler, they'd just duke it out in fisticuffs, because that actually works.

That's one of the dumbest retorts I've ever read. Even if two characters had exactly the same modifier the likely hood of character A succeeding is 50%, whether you're resolving via an opposed roll or a set DC.

[Dogbert]

A succeeding is 50%,

...and the 50% of 20 is *drumrolls* TEN!

whether you're resolving via an opposed roll or a set DC.

Except that with an opposed roll, one opponent can roll an 18 and the other a 5, while the set DC means one opponent's roll will always be a ten.

While handling grappling this way uniforms it to the game's standard mechanic for saving throws, from where I see it, it turns grappling into a waste of feats (Hell, even Mind Reading is handled as an opposed roll of Will vs. M.R).

Look, you look so desperate to be in the right that you know what? Let's say you won, I don't have the patience to pretend to figure out whatever logic you think your argument has.

[Juton]

Now you're just trolling.

[Roog]

2 opponents within the same league (2 super-strong people or 2 acrobats, etc. mainly, the only kind of opponent with whom it makes sense to handle grappling as a conflict rather than as a Win Button), and so with similar strength, only need around ~10 on the die because their Str is similar and both modifiers near cancel each other out. Anyone with an abacus can see this.

And that is totally different from 2E, where escaping from a grapple is an opposed grapple check?

In 2E you could also use contested Escape Artist vrs Grapple to escape, but grapple was effectively uncapped, Escape Artist was capped at 2xPL (#edit, sorry, 2xPL + 10), and any character who was a serious escape artist had Permeate or Insubstantial 1; so any situation where grappling was not a win button or a stupid tactic, you would need about a ten to break out.

Well, the Mastermind's Manual was published by G.R, so if that doesn't count as canon then I don't know what does.

Chapter 8 offers options for customizing combat, including tactical movement, attacks of opportunity, combat challenges, and damage variants.

(Emphasis mine)

ATTACKS OF OPPORTUNITY
The standard combat rules assume combatants actively avoid attacks. You don’t have to declare anything special for your character to be on the defensive. Sometimes, however, a combatant lets his guard down, and doesn’t maintain a defensive posture as usual. In this case, combatants near him can take advantage of this lapse in defense to attack for free. These attacks are called attacks of opportunity.
Attacks of opportunity add an element of complexity to combat not appropriate for all M&M campaigns. Therefore the Gamemaster can decide whether or not attacks of opportunity are allowed in the game.

(Emphasis mine)

I guess you don't.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Assuming that your GM or whatever won't let you choose multi-powers or pick up tricks that let you reconfigure your powers on the fly, what's the best way to spend your points for maximum combat and adventure-solving effectiveness?

[Juton]

Assuming that your GM or whatever won't let you choose multi-powers or pick up tricks that let you reconfigure your powers on the fly, what's the best way to spend your points for maximum combat and adventure-solving effectiveness?

Not being able to use alternate powers is very, very rough. Remember that you can load powers with disadvantages to reduce their cost. I try to make every character with some type of super-movement, super-sense and stealth to give me the most tactical options and all help out of combat. I also like being able to target more than one save, but with your limitations you may be stuck with just one primary attack.

You might want to try building around a skill based character with lots of equipment or devices. They work OK in normal play and shouldn't be hit too hard with the limitations you have to play under.

Always hit your caps. Always. This is one of best thing about M&M. If a character doesn't hit their caps it can indicate that someone is being a basket weaver and you can call them on it. If you know the system they don't really limit your power.

[hogarth]

what's the best way to spend your points for maximum combat and adventure-solving effectiveness?

That seems like a strange question to ask for a standard superhero game. I mean, losing in combat is half the fun because you get the chance to shake your fist at the villain and vow revenge or you get to escape from a cool deathtrap or whatever.

But if your real purpose is to annoy the GM, I'd recommend the usual suspects: insubstantiality, teleportation (bonus points if it's usable on enemies), transforming matter, Q-ray vision, mind reading, having a bunch of minions, etc.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Yeah, I know, I usually leave a defense deliberately low as an escape hatch for a GM in superhero games.

Okay, so say that you are allowed to use alternate powers but you still aren't allowed to pick up on-the-fly reconfigurable powers like Variable. What then?

Also, what feats should I generically look into? Is stuff like Power Attack and Improved Critical and Precise Attack still worth it?

[virgil]

I never messed with M&M3, so exact mechanical advice isn't something I can provide. From what I'm aware, the differences aren't extreme; which makes a lot of discussions I've had before on M&M advice in this forum still viable.

Hogarth's got the right direction for powers that break the usual DM's planning; others include duplication, indirect attacks when tied to your Q-ray vision or scrying, mind control. Outside of those, any offensive power needs to be at your caps, with only a couple alternate powers for different saves and the option for area-damage. Too many APs run into diminishing returns, as you can just use a hero point for the less commonly used stuff.

[NineInchNall]

Yeah, I know, I usually leave a defense deliberately low as an escape hatch for a GM in superhero games.

Okay, so say that you are allowed to use alternate powers but you still aren't allowed to pick up on-the-fly reconfigurable powers like Variable. What then?

Also, what feats should I generically look into? Is stuff like Power Attack and Improved Critical and Precise Attack still worth it?

(Step 0: choose a power source that can justify anything. Magic, psionics, green, the will to power, illusion, shadow, conjuration, kittens, evocation, desire, dream, nightmare, your mom, etc.)

Well, first thing you do is make yourself immune to people's attacks with a Reaction-Teleport power. You know, the PHB2 immediate action teleport that conjuration wizards get? Like that except 30 feet instead of 10. This is actually an example in the GM book. It costs you, no joke, 5 points. (1 rank of teleport, -1 per rank increased action, +3 per rank reaction to incoming attack, +1 flat change direction).

Second, you choose a base power. Choose something that is A) vague, B) generally useful, and C) can be made super expensive with extras. The best candidates for this are Create, Illusion, and Summon. So once again, Conjurers and Illusionists come out on top. Who woulda thunk it?

Third: Pump that power up to stupid levels! For this example, I'll use Illusion as the primary power. We'll choose our bullshit power source later. At PL 10 we can get Illusion up to rank 10. We'll make it affect all senses, active, selective, and area 10. That boosts it up to 80 points. Then we pay 1 to make it dynamic.

Fourth: Make up some dynamic alternate effects to cover any bases that you can't with a hyperpowered major image. Yes, I realize major image at will can handle just about anything. That's why we chose it.

Let's call our powers psionic so we can justify anything. Anyway, each of these effects can be up 80 points of power. Each of them only costs us 2 power points, and because they're dynamic, we can use more than one at a time (at varying strengths). That's only a what, 97.5% discount? Not too shabby.

Examples:

• Dreamcraft: Create (7 per rank + 3 flat) - continuous, selective, moveable, impervious, stationary, innate, precise, subtle 1
• Incarnate Figment: Summon (7 per rank + 2 flat) - heroic, variable type, continuous, mental link, sacrifice
• Recurring Nightmare: Damage (7 per rank + 1 flat) - perception range, area 2, selective, secondary effect, variable descriptor (ice, fire, acid, sonic, electricity)
• Mind Shackles: Affliction (7 per rank + 4 flat) - perception range, area, selective, progressive, subtle 2, insidious 2
• Hypercognition: Enhance (4 per rank) - Each rank adds 1 to Intelligence, Persuasion, Perception, Deception, and Technology. This power can, of course, take us up to 20 in each. Wheeeeeee.
• Psychoportation (Teleport)
• Mindrape (Mind Reading)
• Mindsight (Senses)
• Clairsentience (Remote Viewing)
• Astral Form (Insubstantial)
• etc.

You could easily rename all these in shadow magic terms if you wanted to say you were playing a D&D Shadowcraft Mage who somehow ended up being made real by some sort of dimensional Maguffin.

Step five: Well, with 5 alternate effects you've spent a whopping total of 96 points on powers, which still leaves you with 54 to spend. I mean ... Yeesh. I guess boost your defenses (prioritizing Toughness, of course). You should also invest in Insight, since it's the only way to resist a few things.

You can also cheese out some costs by making them Check Required X and taking Skill Mastery for whatever skill. It costs 10 points to get 20 ranks and 1 point for Skill Mastery. For example, get your Expertise:Magic modifier up to +20 and get Skill Mastery for it. If all your powers require Expertise: Magic DC 20, then you can go ahead and subtract 10 from the cost of each. Get a bunch of them.

EDIT: If you're feeling really cheap, put it all on a removable device (a la Green Lantern's ring) for a 20% discount.

[Sir Aubergine]

I am making a spellcaster for a game next week. I don't understand the difference between this power,

Dance of Vhoka imparts movement to a weapon, allowing it to fight on its own. The weapon is a minion with its normal damage capabilities, the base traits of a construct (including Immunity to Fortitude and Will effects), Flight 1, and skill in wielding itself equal to the power level minus the weapon’s effect rank. Take the weapon’s cost in power points or equipment points, add the cost of its attack ranks (power level – effect rank) + 2 points for Flight to get its minion cost.

and the regular "Summon" power. Would someone kindly elucidate how it works? Thanks in advance.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

The examples in Power Profiles don't make any changes to the rules. There is a typo in that description, though. It should be "skill in wielding itself equal to 2 times the Power Level minus the weapon's effect rank". Here are the modifiers for that power, in case you don't have the pdf.

Dance of Vhoka: Summon Animated Weapon, Active, Controlled, General Type, Ranged • 6 points per rank.

Since it's such a straightforward minion, you're going to be able to put a lot of modifiers on the damage effect, or additional powers.

[Sir Aubergine]

The examples in Power Profiles don't make any changes to the rules. There is a typo in that description, though. It should be "skill in wielding itself equal to 2 times the Power Level minus the weapon's effect rank". Here are the modifiers for that power, in case you don't have the pdf.

Dance of Vhoka: Summon Animated Weapon, Active, Controlled, General Type, Ranged • 6 points per rank.

Since it's such a straightforward minion, you're going to be able to put a lot of modifiers on the damage effect, or additional powers.

Thank you for the reply.

I based my character on Spiral (from MvC2), but as it turns out, all of the information related to her I could find (I don't own any comics in which she appears) would seem to indicate that she leans more toward magic/science than hand-to-hand combat. My original intent was to have multiple dancing swords that would attack my enemies (just like Spiral's moves in the game), but the Ref made it clear that anyone who goes too heavy on summons/minions is getting a croquet mallet to the skull.

I wonder if he would allow me to use the sidekick advantage to build a sidekick that is nothing more than a bunch of dancing swords. Does that sound like an abuse of the rules to you?

[NineInchNall]

What it looks like you want to do is have your character hurt people with floating swords. So just do that.

Make a Damage (Ranged) power and say it's a bunch of floating swords. Add an alternate Damage (Perception, Area) effect.

Then add a completely separate Protection power and say that is the swords flying around you to form a shield.

The take-away here is that often what is intuitively a "thing you control" is, when you get right down to it, just a different effect or group of effects. Look at the textbox on page 130 "Minions as Descriptors".

[Sir Aubergine]

What it looks like you want to do is have your character hurt people with floating swords. So just do that.

Make a Damage (Ranged) power and say it's a bunch of floating swords. Add an alternate Damage (Perception, Area) effect.

Then add a completely separate Protection power and say that is the swords flying around you to form a shield.

The take-away here is that often what is intuitively a "thing you control" is, when you get right down to it, just a different effect or group of effects. Look at the textbox on page 130 "Minions as Descriptors".

Thank you for your input.

To say that I could make a set of abilities with a tangy sword flavor is absolutely correct. My reason for wanting to use the "Summon" power was so that I could increase my actions per round. If I added the "Reaction" extra to an AoE attack, that would allow me to sling my other spells at the same time. At that point it is simply a matter of offsetting the tremendous cost of said extra.

[hogarth]

My reason for wanting to use the "Summon" power was so that I could increase my actions per round.

Again, I'd ask: Is this just to annoy the GM? Unless the GM is a real dick, that seems like a poor reason to build a PC.

[darkmaster]

Toughness and Fortitude I'll eat my hat.

Okay, Toughness protects you from punches ect, and Fortitude protects you from poisons, and also acid I think, probably disintegration too, unless, you know, someone does something squirrely with extras.

I would like pictures to actually prove you ate your hat please.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Okay, Toughness protects you from punches ect, and Fortitude protects you from poisons, and also acid I think, probably disintegration too, unless, you know, someone does something squirrely with extras.

I was talking about narrative differences, not arbitrary gameplay ones.

[darkmaster]

That's also the narrative difference, hat eating pictures plz.

[Lago PARANOIA]

That's also the narrative difference,

It's one that spawns from arbitrary gameplay mechanics that is an artifact of the rules set it came from.

In actual action-adventure fiction, authors don't make that kind of distinction between 'resistance to punches, force blasts, etc.' and 'resistance to acid and disintegration'. Especially since MnM doesn't even do very strong segregation of stuff that's supposed to be in the Toughness pile and and stuff that's supposed to be in the Fortitude pile.

Face it, it's just an arbitrary distinction the game designers threw in to make it look more like the d20 rules set it spawned on; a rules set that didn't have a separate and universal 'all purpose soak stat'.

[Zaranthan]

In actual action-adventure fiction, authors don't make that kind of distinction between 'resistance to punches, force blasts, etc.' and 'resistance to acid and disintegration'.

Barring the presence of kryptonite, isn't Superman nearly impervious to all forms of damage, but defenseless against all forms of magic? I recall the xenomorphs from the Alien series having an exoskeleton immune to acid, and resistant to conventional injury, but not totally bulletproof. The idea of somebody whose schtick is "really fragging tough" still having varying toughness against different things isn't new.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The idea of somebody whose schtick is "really fragging tough" still having varying toughness against different things isn't new.

But it's not implemented through the Toughness/Fortitude divide. Not just because even when Kryptonite tropes show up in fiction they're totally random (Devil fruit users are super-weak to seawater, Venom sucks against fire and sonic attacks, subterranean invaders can't defend against disease worth shit) but MnM can't even maintain a well-separated list.

[Mistborn]

Assuming that your GM or whatever won't let you choose multi-powers or pick up tricks that let you reconfigure your powers on the fly, what's the best way to spend your points for maximum combat and adventure-solving effectiveness?

The super cheesy thing to do is take Boost, make it a free action and then take a bunch of other powers at rank 1. For best results (asuming you're GM doesn't regect such outrageous bullshit out of hand) get your boost power from a device and be Nanoha

[Schleiermacher]

This thread is a very good illustration of the weakness of the M&M system. It's a very flexible system, but because of the lack of restrictions, character creation is completely unbalanced. It pretty much requires communal character generation with strong GM oversight, so everyone is on the same page, or the game will be virtually unplayable.

For all that, with balanced characters I think it's a very fun game, although a few obvious house rules improve it greatly.