What is with the entitlement? (shadzar stay out)

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Post by K »

Shadow Balls wrote:I'm not ignoring you, but I don't have the time for a verbose reply right now.

What if the people in question are setting themselves up to fail, despite your efforts to prevent it?
There is literally no way that you can fail to prevent them from failing.

If the players are choosing terrible options, you make those options better. It players choose the wrong options in combat, you alter the narrative to blunt their own stupidity.

I mean, why would you want players to not have fun? What's wrong with you that ruining everyone's evening is something you feel justified in doing? Is feeling superior at DnD really worth bumming out your friends?

RPGing is not a competitive sport, and the DM doesn't even get the luxury of saying he "won" the night's session when he TPKs people.

I appreciate that trying to get people to improve their skillset is a valuable goal, but negative reinforcement is not the way if you want to keep players.
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Post by Swordslinger »

K wrote: There is literally no way that you can fail to prevent them from failing.

If the players are choosing terrible options, you make those options better. It players choose the wrong options in combat, you alter the narrative to blunt their own stupidity.

I mean, why would you want players to not have fun? What's wrong with you that ruining everyone's evening is something you feel justified in doing? Is feeling superior at DnD really worth bumming out your friends?
I don't get this attitude. You make shit decisions, why shouldn't you be punished for them? Why even have people decide at all if they automatically win? How are you supposed to be interested in a game like that if everything you do is right? Isn't this just another form or railroading?

I find it insulting if the DM is treating me like a 6 year old by making everything I do an instant success even if it's crazy stupid.

It's not about winning or losing, it's about verisimilitude and believability. Even if you never actually kill anyone, the PCs need to believe there's real risk there. Otherwise, why run a game with combats at all?
Last edited by Swordslinger on Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by K »

Swordslinger wrote:
K wrote: There is literally no way that you can fail to prevent them from failing.

If the players are choosing terrible options, you make those options better. It players choose the wrong options in combat, you alter the narrative to blunt their own stupidity.

I mean, why would you want players to not have fun? What's wrong with you that ruining everyone's evening is something you feel justified in doing? Is feeling superior at DnD really worth bumming out your friends?
I don't get this attitude. You make shit decisions, why shouldn't you be punished for them? Why even have people decide at all if they automatically win? How are you supposed to be interested in a game like that if everything you do is right? Isn't this just another form or railroading?

I find it insulting if the DM is treating me like a 6 year old by making everything I do an instant success even if it's crazy stupid.

It's not about winning or losing, it's about verisimilitude and believability. Even if you never actually kill anyone, the PCs need to believe there's real risk there. Otherwise, why run a game with combats at all?
Believability and verisimilitude are manufactured by the DM using a number of techniques and combats exist to give people the illusion of risk. They also to act as random number generators for resource depletion because resource depletion alters the narrative.

RPGing is not some other universe where your accomplishments matter. The DM is controlling all the variables and determining all the challenges, and if you think that you are succeeding out of your own skill you are mistaken. You are always being treated like a 6-year-old, even when you are being TPKed every session.

RPGing is a fun way to blow off some steam, and if your idea of blowing off steam is to make your friends feel bad, then you should go do something else. As a DM, you are controlling everything, so if they die it's you specifically choosing to let them die. Pretending that's it's the system that hates them and not you is a lie.
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Post by Swordslinger »

K wrote: Believability and verisimilitude are manufactured by the DM using a number of techniques and combats exist to give people the illusion of risk.
Once you break the illusion by making it blatantly obvious people can't die, haven't you defeated the whole purpose?
RPGing is not some other universe where your accomplishments matter. The DM is controlling all the variables and determining all the challenges, and if you think that you are succeeding out of your own skill you are mistaken.
Untrue. Just because the game is not adversarial doesn't mean that skill can't make a difference. It only becomes irrelevant if you have a DM who constantly adjusts his module during play to either let you win or screw you over.

If someone is running the Sunless Citadel or the Tomb of Horrors, the challenges in that module are laid out. There are a set of monsters and traps, you have to find some way of getting past them. Some people are going to make better decisions at getting past the obstacles and others are going to choose poorly. The ones that choose poorly have a greater chance of dying.

Choices have an impact so that sounds like there's some skill element there.
As a DM, you are controlling everything, so if they die it's you specifically choosing to let them die. Pretending that's it's the system that hates them and not you is a lie.
Maybe you missed the part where the DM is supposed to be impartial. As a DM I don't hate the PCs. I run the encounters based on the rules and resolve it from there. If the rules say they die, they die. And they are dead either because of bad choices or bad luck, not because I failed to save them. It's not my job to save them anymore than it's my job to make sure the villain survives. I'm supposed to be impartial.

By your logic, every computer game against an AI is also the result of the program letting someone die and nothing to do with player skill. Yet, the people fast enough to dodge the cyberdemon's rockets survive, and the people who choose not to do so end up splattered on the ground. In such a case, I blame myself for not dodging fast enough, I don't blame the programmer for allowing death as a possibility. Doing that is just silly. I wouldn't even want a combat game where you can't die, because it'd be boring. If I wanted that, I'd just watch a movie.

Are your players really that insecure that they can't live with any kind of failure?
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Post by echoVanguard »

K wrote:RPGing is a fun way to blow off some steam, and if your idea of blowing off steam is to make your friends feel bad, then you should go do something else. As a DM, you are controlling everything, so if they die it's you specifically choosing to let them die. Pretending that's it's the system that hates them and not you is a lie.
If I'm reading this correctly, K, you are stating unequivocally that if a player's character dies in a DM's game, that DM should "go do something else". If that is true, then why should RPGs contain the possibility of player failure at all, from a design standpoint?

I think you should rethink your stance on this issue.

echo

edit - fixed unclear wording
Last edited by echoVanguard on Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

If a player dies during your game, I hope you would have the good sense to call the police, because something's definitely gone wrong.

Player characters on the other hand...
Don't bother trying to impress gamers. They're too busy trying to impress you to care.
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Post by echoVanguard »

I edited my post for clarity.

echo
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Post by K »

Swordslinger wrote:
As a DM, you are controlling everything, so if they die it's you specifically choosing to let them die. Pretending that's it's the system that hates them and not you is a lie.
Maybe you missed the part where the DM is supposed to be impartial. As a DM I don't hate the PCs. I run the encounters based on the rules and resolve it from there. If the rules say they die, they die. And they are dead either because of bad choices or bad luck, not because I failed to save them. It's not my job to save them anymore than it's my job to make sure the villain survives. I'm supposed to be impartial.

By your logic, every computer game against an AI is also the result of the program letting someone die and nothing to do with player skill. Yet, the people fast enough to dodge the cyberdemon's rockets survive, and the people who choose not to do so end up splattered on the ground. In such a case, I blame myself for not dodging fast enough, I don't blame the programmer for allowing death as a possibility. Doing that is just silly. I wouldn't even want a combat game where you can't die, because it'd be boring. If I wanted that, I'd just watch a movie.
If you think you are being impartial, you are lying to yourself.

Every DM choice is biased. I mean, do your intelligent enemies always kill the poorly armored Wizard first, or do you target the fighter because he's the only one who can take a Troll attack and not explode? Do your enemies concentrate fire on one character to drop that one, or do they spread out attacks? Do your enemies intelligently lay traps and ambushes, or do you decide for RP reasons that they charge?

You can't even run a published adventure without making hundreds of choices that affect how the combats unfold, or judgement calls about whether spurious ideas or tactics will be allowed a chance of success. I mean, just because a Balor has been placed in a room means you could play it easy by Fireballing for three rounds or play it hard by Blasphemying for three rounds, and success or failure of the party is decided by those decisions.

Computer games actually are impartial. The enemies attack whoever has more hate, and so player skill comes in managing player hate. There is no reacting that isn't predecided by the script, and players really can complain about unbeatable scenarios (and they do... they really do... like when WoW had an unkillable dragon and FFXI had Absolute Virtue).

That being said, players of video games are immortal. They can attack that cyberdemon a thousand times or more until they figure our the exact programming of it's attacks, and then create and execute tactics to win success that play on the fact that even with a random number generator the monster is playing to a script. In a sense, even their success is a foregone conclusion since there are few meaningful losses.

RPG players don't have that luxury of actual immortality to figure out the script, especially considering that the scripting is going to be improvised by a human each and every time. What they need is plot immortality so that they feel like heroes when they play the game.... otherwise the whole point of the exercise is meaningless.

I hate to break it to you, but this is bar between a fun game and a shitty game.
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Post by K »

echoVanguard wrote:
K wrote:RPGing is a fun way to blow off some steam, and if your idea of blowing off steam is to make your friends feel bad, then you should go do something else. As a DM, you are controlling everything, so if they die it's you specifically choosing to let them die. Pretending that's it's the system that hates them and not you is a lie.
If I'm reading this correctly, K, you are stating unequivocally that if a player's character dies in a DM's game, that DM should "go do something else". If that is true, then why should RPGs contain the possibility of player failure at all, from a design standpoint?

I think you should rethink your stance on this issue.

echo

edit - fixed unclear wording
Lots of games don't have player character death. Take Champions, for example.

But yes, if your balance point is that characters should permanently die all the time in normal encounters in DnD, then you shouldn't be a DM. It's just you being a shitty person and making some other people have a shitty afternoon/evening.

Player failure is an entirely separate issue. I mean, you might feel bad that you didn't save the princess or you offended the king because the dice hated you that day, but it's much worse watching someone crumple up a character sheet that they've spent hundreds of hours playing.

Swordslinger wants players to have a good chance to die so that he can feel that he's "challenging" them. That's a dickery in the Gygaxian model and should have been left in the 1970s before we knew any better.
Last edited by K on Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Swordslinger wrote:In such a case, I blame myself for not dodging fast enough, I don't blame the programmer for allowing death as a possibility. Doing that is just silly. I wouldn't even want a combat game where you can't die, because it'd be boring. If I wanted that, I'd just watch a movie.
The cost of failure in each case is radically different, so much so that you might say failure in a videogame is not failure at all.

Ultimately, failure needs to be a way to continue the fun. The 'fun' of losing in Doom is that you tap the quickload key and seconds later you are playing the game again. The 'fun' of losing in D&D is that the session stops, everybody remakes characters, and you start doing a completely different story. If you can't tell, Doom is completing negating the consequences of failure. If Doom were like D&D, losing to the cyberdemon would turn off the game, stop you from playing for a week, and put you back at the start of the chapter (or game) when it did boot back up. Nobody would play Doom if it were like that, and nobody wants to play D&D like that either.

So you've got two options for D&D: you stop them from failing with DM-granted plot immortality, or you alleviate the consequences of failure. I personally think failure can lead to fun stories, so I'd be partial to having failure != PC death. When the PC's lose a battle, they are captured/sold into slavery/left for dead and robbed/successfully escape but fail some campaign objective. As long as 'failing' means 'go right back to having fun,' nobody will give a shit. But right now, failing in D&D means "see you guys next weekend," and nobody enjoys that and if you inflict that on somebody you're an asshole, unequivocally.

Edit: I suppose I should make a distinction here. PC death is almost always bad. PC failure is bad in 3.5 because it almost always leads to PC death (there are very few outcomes of D&D combat besides "won" or "died"). If you want PC's to fail, the system can accomodate that. If you want to PC's to die, fuck you stop playing.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Swordslinger »

K wrote: Every DM choice is biased. I mean, do your intelligent enemies always kill the poorly armored Wizard first, or do you target the fighter because he's the only one who can take a Troll attack and not explode? Do your enemies concentrate fire on one character to drop that one, or do they spread out attacks? Do your enemies intelligently lay traps and ambushes, or do you decide for RP reasons that they charge?
While it's true that every DM's choices may well vary for how he controls the monsters, I wouldn't necessarily say they're biased. I generally try to run monsters how I believe they would act. Mindless creatures will just attack the closest threat. If they're smart enough to know about magic, and the wizard happens to leave himself open, then hell yeah, they're gonna try to shred him. If he's left unguarded in the open, that's the PCs own stupidity for doing so.

As for the DM's level of tactics, that likely has to do with his knowledge of the game. A newbie DM that's not very tactic savvy will likely run modules easier than one good at strategy games. This isn't bias, so much as the fact that the DM's skill also matters to the game.

But that doesn't mean the DM should be deliberately pulling punches. That only means that the DM's best tactical effort just isn't as good as other people's might be. As with any tactical game, some people are better than others, and that applies to DMs as well.

And before we lose the forest from the trees. Consider the fact that you may avoid the room the troll is in entirely. The point isn't necessarily that every rendition of the Sunless Citadel will be equally difficult, because it won't be. The point is that choices made in the adventure can impact your chances of success.

So I pose this question to you. Lets take two groups:
  • Group A has their wizard safely in the back of the group and uses good teamwork. The entire party is a group of well optimized characters.
  • Group B has their wizard rush the enemy headlong with a torch alongside the barbarian. Their barbarian has also chosen to dual wield daggers without the Two weapon fighting feat cause he thought it'd be cool.
If the DM and adventure are both constant in both games, which group would you bet your money on as most likely to die? If you put your money on group A, you're admitting there's some degree of skill to the game.

Can you honestly say that both these groups have an equal chance of survival?
You can't even run a published adventure without making hundreds of choices that affect how the combats unfold, or judgement calls about whether spurious ideas or tactics will be allowed a chance of success. I mean, just because a Balor has been placed in a room means you could play it easy by Fireballing for three rounds or play it hard by Blasphemying for three rounds, and success or failure of the party is decided by those decisions.
True, but like I said, if you're acting unbiasedly, you should use the balor's deadliest attacks here. A bunch of guys walk in who are decked out in gem studded armor and have more orbiting ioun stones than a solar system model... You may want to start to bust out your best stuff. As the DM, you're playing a super intelligent monster with absolutely no reason to take it easy on the characters.

It's only bias if the DM decides to have this monster take it easy, or if he has the balor act on information it does not have.

Can you be biased by helping out the PCs? Sure. Do you have to be? No.
RPG players don't have that luxury of actual immortality to figure out the script, especially considering that the scripting is going to be improvised by a human each and every time. What they need is plot immortality so that they feel like heroes when they play the game.... otherwise the whole point of the exercise is meaningless.
Granted, RPGs need to be easier than some video games for that reason, but that doens't mean you have to hand them immortality. Some video games have a hardcore mode where you get one life, your character is deleted. In Super Mario Bros, if you lost all your lives, you got sent back to the beginning of the game. The concept that you get infinite retries isn't always true of every game.

As echo said, if death isn't an acceptable outcome for PCs, why have it in the game at all? Why are monsters tossing out fingers of death if PCs are not supposed to die? If anything, that only hurts the illusion of risk you're trying to create if the PCs know that it could cast finger of death, but didn't. Do medusas in your game wear a veil when they fight PCs so their petrifying gaze is nullified? I don't get it.
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Post by K »

Swordslinger wrote: So I pose this question to you. Lets take two groups:
  • Group A has their wizard safely in the back of the group and uses good teamwork. The entire party is a group of well optimized characters.
  • Group B has their wizard rush the enemy headlong with a torch alongside the barbarian. Their barbarian has also chosen to dual wield daggers without the Two weapon fighting feat cause he thought it'd be cool.
If the DM and adventure are both constant in both games, which group would you bet your money on as most likely to die? If you put your money on group A, you're admitting there's some degree of skill to the game.

Can you honestly say that both these groups have an equal chance of survival?
They have exactly the chance of success that you give them. No more and no less.

Now, you can be a dick and kill them with your superior skill, but you can kill them whenever you want anyway. What does it prove? Why do you need to prove to them that you are better at DnD tactics or that they picked substandard tactics?

This isn't a video game where you are trying to beat some objective goal, so focusing on optimization is not even a meaningful activity.
Swordslinger wrote: As echo said, if death isn't an acceptable outcome for PCs, why have it in the game at all? Why are monsters tossing out fingers of death if PCs are not supposed to die? If anything, that only hurts the illusion of risk you're trying to create if the PCs know that it could cast finger of death, but didn't. Do medusas in your game wear a veil when they fight PCs so their petrifying gaze is nullified? I don't get it.
Why are you using fingers of death and medusa at all? Why didn't you give the PCs an item of true resurrection?

The illusion of risk is an illusion. There is never supposed to be real risk to the PCs, or at least risks they can't easily negate so that they can go back to playing.

Your job is not to roleplay the whole world and make it objectively difficult and then kill the PCs for not living up to your personal skill levels. Your job is to run the game and make it fun for the players.

I mean, you saying "well, the Balor is a super-genius so he uses his deadliest tactics" is just you being a dick because any alternate narrative is just as good. Maybe he's arrogant and thinks the party is beneath his full power, or maybe he's got a fetish for fire. Heck, maybe he thinks the PCs are also evil and he thinks Blasphemy won't work on them (being smart doesn't mean you know everything).

But you knowing the PCs strengths and picking the absolute best tactic based on that knowledge is just you being a dick for purely personal reasons. Once you go down that road, you should not be a DM.
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Post by Swordslinger »

K wrote: They have exactly the chance of success that you give them. No more and no less.
You do realize that some modules are notorious as meat grinders right? People do die.

I have to think that now you're just being disingenuous. You can't seriously believe that the average DM is equally likely to kill characters that behave like morons and characters that play a smart game.

Dude... seriously?
Why are you using fingers of death and medusa at all? Why didn't you give the PCs an item of true resurrection?
Oh right, silly me. The medusa is just in the monster manual for the pretty artwork. Not because anyone is supposed to use it. And those monsters that get death spells as spell-like abilities? Nope, not supposed to use em. Just there for show.
I mean, you saying "well, the Balor is a super-genius so he uses his deadliest tactics" is just you being a dick because any alternate narrative is just as good.
Just as good? Not if it doesn't produce a believable narrative. At that rate, you might as well have the balor start tossing nonmagical stones at the PCs and say "What difference does it make?"

But you knowing the PCs strengths and picking the absolute best tactic based on that knowledge is just you being a dick for purely personal reasons. Once you go down that road, you should not be a DM.
Okay, that's actually the opposite of what I said. If you were reading my post, which apparently you were not, I specifically said that it was bad to use knowledge that the Balor wouldn't have because the DM would be being biased in favor of the monsters.

So way to go for agreeing with me in an insulting manner dude.
Matticus wrote: If you want PC's to fail, the system can accomodate that. If you want to PC's to die, fuck you stop playing.
The DM should not want PCs to fail.

He plays the scenario out and lets the dice fall where they may according to the rules. Sometimes this may result in PC death, but it's not the DMs intention from the start, it's just what happened to occur. Ideally, you should design scenarios in which the PCs will probably survive. But that doesn't mean that you as the DM are obligated to absolutely prevent that outcome at all costs. PC death exists in the game as an option for a reason.

It's a real dick thing to do to take away player agency. The moment the player's decisions stop mattering and the dice stops mattering, you might as well just become an author and write your own novel.

In a nutshell this is K's philosophy: Fuck the rules, fuck player choice, fuck the RNG. This is my story and it's ending how I want. It's okay for me to railroad the fuck out of this shit because the railroad leads to a happy place. Any DM that decides that PCs can die in his game is a Gygaxian asshole for following the rules of the game and not fudging dice.
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Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

Holy fucking shit. K, I love you. Everything you've said this thread has matched my own design and DM philosophies and you've explained it tons better than I ever could.
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Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

Swordslinger: Close. It sounds more to me that K is saying "This is OUR game and we're going to end it the way WE want it to, and fuck anything that gets in the way of it, even if they're rules."

K's said nothing to suggest that his goals as a module writer are supreme, but HAS said that fun is the objective, and winning the game is fun. Railroading the party is NOT fun.
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Post by Swordslinger »

Desdan_Mervolam wrote:Swordslinger: Close. It sounds more to me that K is saying "This is OUR game and we're going to end it the way WE want it to, and fuck anything that gets in the way of it, even if they're rules."

K's said nothing to suggest that his goals as a module writer are supreme, but HAS said that fun is the objective, and winning the game is fun. Railroading the party is NOT fun.
He said that he won't let PCs die, even if they act ridiculously stupid. A PC could literally be trying to die and K would absolutely not let them.

And then you get PCs who actually want to feel some risk. Me personally, I don't want to know how the campaign ends. I don't want to know that I'm going to always be inevitably destined to survive and win. I want to let the dice fall where they may and allow some risk to my character. I want this because it makes the game exciting to me. I didn't ask for invulnerability, I asked to play D&D.

But no, I don't get that option, because this is K's novel and he's decided that the heroes don't die. I'm not playing D&D anymore, I'm playing an illusion of a game with the illusion of risk. He's removed any choice I have to decide my destiny, any chance of failure or even any reason to have rules or dice. At this point I might as well just play Magic Tea Party and be honest about what's going on, because K has stated that the dice and rules don't even matter.
Last edited by Swordslinger on Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by K »

Swordslinger wrote:
Desdan_Mervolam wrote:Swordslinger: Close. It sounds more to me that K is saying "This is OUR game and we're going to end it the way WE want it to, and fuck anything that gets in the way of it, even if they're rules."

K's said nothing to suggest that his goals as a module writer are supreme, but HAS said that fun is the objective, and winning the game is fun. Railroading the party is NOT fun.
He said that he won't let PCs die, even if they act ridiculously stupid. A PC could literally be trying to die and K would absolutely not let them.

And then you get PCs who actually want to feel some risk. Me personally, I don't want to know how the campaign ends. I don't want to know that I'm going to always be inevitably destined to survive and win. I want to let the dice fall where they may and allow some risk to my character. I want this because it makes the game exciting to me. I didn't ask for invulnerability, I asked to play D&D.

But no, I don't get that option, because this is K's novel and he's decided that the heroes don't die. I'm not playing D&D anymore, I'm playing an illusion of a game with the illusion of risk. He's removed any choice I have to decide my destiny, any chance of failure or even any reason to have rules or dice. At this point I might as well just play Magic Tea Party and be honest about what's going on, because K has stated that the dice and rules don't even matter.
It's everyone's story, and you deciding to end it when you lose nothing by not ending it is you being a dick.

Players can still fail. They can fail all over the place, but dying and not getting to play anymore has to be off the table. The kingdom can fall, the temple looted, the elemental army breaks free of their ancient prison, but the players get to keep playing because otherwise ALL OF THE STORY UP TO THAT POINT IS MEANINGLESS IF IT ENDS.

So you continue the story. You start a peasant revolution, you seek out a new artifact that can quell the elementals, you hunt down the looters and get back the sacred relics and reinstall them in the temple. YOU CONTINUE THE STORY. You do it for the players and not yourself.

The most tragic part of this whole discussion is that you ever thought that you were somehow winning based on your own skill. Your DMs have always been making sure the party doesn't get TPKed and that you had a chance of succeeding despite your own failures.

I feel better now that I know you were lying to yourself.
Last edited by K on Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by A Man In Black »

Swordslinger wrote:But no, I don't get that option, because this is K's novel and he's decided that the heroes don't die. I'm not playing D&D anymore, I'm playing an illusion of a game with the illusion of risk. He's removed any choice I have to decide my destiny, any chance of failure or even any reason to have rules or dice. At this point I might as well just play Magic Tea Party and be honest about what's going on, because K has stated that the dice and rules don't even matter.
Swordslinger, do you think that Superman stories are lame because there's no risk of him dying?
Last edited by A Man In Black on Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Swordslinger »

K wrote: The most tragic part of this whole discussion is that you ever thought that you were somehow winning based on your own skill. Your DMs have always been making sure the party doesn't get TPKed and that you had a chance of succeeding despite your own failures.
Chance of succeeding yes. Preventing the party from being TPKed? Hardly, given that I've had a few TPKs in my time. Maybe you've prevented your parties from getting TPKed, but not the DMs I've played under. A lot of them more or less run modules out of the box.

The last 4E quest I "completed" actually ended with half the party running like bitches, leaving two members down behind us whose players were forced to roll up new characters. The group had to end up retreating from the dungeon and calling the mission a wash.

And honestly I wouldn't have the game any other way. I don't want the DM to suddenly bail us out because we're losing.
MiB wrote: Swordslinger, do you think that Superman is lame because there can't ever be any element of risk in his stories?
Well, actually Superman has died before, so I wouldn't say there's no risk at all, but naturally you know that he's going to come back due to fan appeal, because that's the way comics work. There's nothing inherently wrong with Superman, but I wouldn't want to play him in an RPG.

I'd much rather read/watch a story like Game of Thrones where there's a much better illusion of risk where you feel like anyone could get killed off. That's much more high quality in my opinion.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Lots of games don't have player character death. Take Champions, for example.
That's not true.

PC death is incredibly rare in Champions, as the combat system is designed for characters to be incapacitated and/or surrender in more than two different ways before they risk death, but it still can and does happen. Most frequently this occurs either due to a villain who has truly murderous psych lims and keeps attacking a hero who is already down, or due to environmental factors that one of the PCs isn't set up to deal with (the guy without flight getting tossed out of the airplane, the guy without water breathing getting dragged off underwater by Captain Kraken) but there was also a notable PC death in my current and long-running champs game where White Buffalo thought he could save on END by going without a forcefield in a "safe" area of the battlemat and took a stealth autofire AK-47 to the back which dropped him to negative body in one segment.
do you think that Superman stories are lame because there's no risk of him dying?
Well, the story line where Superman Died was pretty much the epitome of lame.

The bit with various imposters and rising-to-take-up the mantle heroes emerged was actually handled well

And the resurrection was tritely predictable.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by K »

Swordslinger wrote:
K wrote: The most tragic part of this whole discussion is that you ever thought that you were somehow winning based on your own skill. Your DMs have always been making sure the party doesn't get TPKed and that you had a chance of succeeding despite your own failures.
Chance of succeeding yes. Preventing the party from being TPKed? Hardly, given that I've had a few TPKs in my time. Maybe you've prevented your parties from getting TPKed, but not the DMs I've played under. A lot of them more or less run modules out of the box.

The last 4E quest I "completed" actually ended with half the party running like bitches, leaving two members down behind us whose players were forced to roll up new characters. The group had to end up retreating from the dungeon and calling the mission a wash.

And honestly I wouldn't have the game any other way. I don't want the DM to suddenly bail us out because we're losing.
So you've been hurt before and now you want to hurt others? How pedestrian.

Not everyone wants to project their past injustices on others and are more concerned with everyone having fun.

(As an aside, creating a balanced game is a valid goal simply because most DMs are incompetent or feel the need to make players suffer for no reason.)

Swordslinger wrote:I'd much rather read/watch a story like Game of Thrones where there's a much better illusion of risk where you feel like anyone could get killed off. That's much more high quality in my opinion.
So you'd rather watch the evolving story of a DnD game if people die all the time because you find it more interesting?

Seriously, what's your problem? Ruining other people's fun for your own amusement is not cool.
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Post by A Man In Black »

K wrote:(As an aside, creating a balanced game is a valid goal simply because most DMs are incompetent or feel the need to make players suffer for no reason.)
And because fixing shit on the fly is extra effort that you could be using to make the game more interesting in other ways, even if you are competent.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

The reason I mentioned 'captured' story arcs is that it's a way to have the story continue without pulling your punches significantly, even if the players lose a fight.

In a world with an afterlife, 'dead' can be a valid story arc, reconciling a Gygaxian DM's love of killing PCs (perhaps because they fucked up) with the modern desire to actually continue playing a character for a whole campaign.
Last edited by RadiantPhoenix on Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by A Man In Black »

RadiantPhoenix wrote:In a world with an afterlife, 'dead' can be a valid story arc, reconciling a Gygaxian DM's love of killing PCs (perhaps because they fucked up) with the modern desire to actually continue playing a character for a whole campaign.
Or in a game with backups, save points, or avatars. You can kill PCs in Paranoia, EVE, or .hack all you like without kicking the players out of the game.
I wish in the past I had tried more things 'cause now I know that being in trouble is a fake idea
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Post by TheFlatline »

K wrote:Here's the deal: your job as a DM is to make sure the players have fun.
I guess the DM doesn't qualify as a "player" any more?

Fuck that. Fuck the idea that the DM is some happiness slave to the players. He has an equal stake in the game. His enjoyment comes from making up stories and a world for the characters to wander around in. Granted, you need ambulatory characters to do this, but at the same time, if I have to stop my story too much because someone's being a whiny, entitled bitch, guess who isn't getting invited to my next game?

RPGs are a collaborative effort. I consider whiny, entitled players to be on the same level as Gygaxian DMs (when the players haven't asked for that level of fuckery), cheaters, and other deal-breakers.

Edit: Let me put it another way. The whining comes from players losing, not from characters getting killed. If you gave some negative impact to the PCs from losing a fight, you'd still have people bitching that it's not fair. To which I suggest that combat is dangerous. By definition. There has to be a penalty to losing, otherwise from a game standpoint there literally is *no* reason to get into combat.

Imagine a skill check system where you never actually failed at any skill because someone bitched and moaned about how cruel the DM was when their skill check failed. It's a similar idea.

If I'm running a particularly lethal game I warn players to put their big boy pants on and understand that combat is lethal to everyone going in... And usually I demonstrate this by blowing living shit out of a PC-level NPC in front of their eyes when a game starts so they can see just how bad the game is going to be. This means the players go out of their way to maximize their survival rate or avoid combat completely, which requires roleplaying to do.

In my Dark Heresy game my players know they're only one or two really good attacks away from getting wasted. That's how the system runs. I don't intentionally gun for the party, but I run my NPCs as having just as much self-preservation as the PCs. Which means that usually fights don't happen unless they're an accident or one side has a significant tactical advantage over the other.
Last edited by TheFlatline on Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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