Fighters, "Fighters," and Fighters!

[fectin]

So the part where you said this:

Unfortunately, Wizards have to actually give up being even close to as useful in combat in exchange for this compared to a Tome Fighter.

I'm sorry, do Tome rules somehow enforce some additional rule that causes casting classes to lose access 90% of their spell list? Because otherwise I am confused as to how this statement can be true.

was that just for giggles? Because when you turn right around and say this:

You'll notice that most of my conceits had nothing to do with combat effectiveness. Tome fighters are indeed effective in combat. I did not at any point say that they were not, and the closest thing i can see is mentioning that that wizards trying to work on a damage track are working entirely ineffectively.

it sure sounds like you're contradicting yourself.

You go on to genuflect toward "Resource A" as though there were some sort of super-special thing there which was vital to have. I don't know what the deal is there.

You nominally had some other points in there, but my eyes glazed over when you got to the strawman about fighters and scrolls, which was part of your larger strawman about fighters being fake wizards.

[darkmaster]

Well actually, saying, "tome rules don't make wizards less effective in combat" and "I'm not even talking about combat" aren't contradictory, though it may at first seem so.

At least not in this case because you chose to posit that wizard lose combat effectiveness by tome rules, it is entirely appropriate for him to say. No, but I wasn't even talking about combat so the point is moot. Or anything to that effect.

[fectin]

That's true. But since Kaelik made a point originally about combat effectiveness, and he disagreed with it, we can tell that's not what he's driving at.

[Leper]

That's true. But since Kaelik made a point originally about combat effectiveness, and he disagreed with it, we can tell that's not what he's driving at.

Crap on a cracker, is it that hard to read?

Here's his point, (which was in response to my long list of out of combat notes) and my response:

Unfortunately, Wizards have to actually give up being even close to as useful in combat in exchange for this compared to a Tome Fighter.

I'm sorry, do Tome rules somehow enforce some additional rule that causes casting classes to lose access 90% of their spell list? Because otherwise I am confused as to how this statement can be true.

While I apparently misunderstood the context of his post--which was really only made clear by subsequent (wrong) rants--his claim was "wizards become less effective in combat" by... what? Buying the same thing the fighter is buying?

In the long run, hell no, they're not, because the fighter is still heavily gear dependent and the wizard isn't. The fighter is spending money that needs to be spent to keep current on his gear to keep up with the wizard, while the wizard ha plenty of free resources, and his effectiveness in combat (and out!) is not terribly dependent on whether or not he is keeping every single item up at its highest available bonus.

In the short run, No, he's still not. He's still got a plethora of spell slots, and many many many ways to bypass that limitation. Unless the DM is running a campaign specifically to go "FU CASTERS" and running them through encounter after encounter after encounter after encounter after encounter (in which case it's entirely possible that our "fighter's unlimited resources" are still tapped out thanks to the fact that he's low on hitpoints and his healer's out of "prop up the fighter" spells) it's silly to claim so.

Again, if you're going to say "UR RONG" then at least have the courtesy to actually read what you're quoting.

Edit:

You go on to genuflect toward "Resource A" as though there were some sort of super-special thing there which was vital to have. I don't know what the deal is there.

Resource A is money.

Money isn't vital to have for the wizard because his class abilities (spells) function well largely independent of his gear. Casting stat boosting items are nice, as are defensive items, but they're not necessary to his function, or for the function of his abilities.

Lvl 12 Naked fighter: not a threat, and while a Tome fighter is indeed more of a threat than the PHB equivalent in this condition, he is not a credible threat to anything even approaching his CR unless it's a very poorly designed CR12. (like... should be a CR 4 or less)
Lvl 12 Naked wizard: threat, most obviously. All his spells still work. Save or die may have a lower save, but the "die, no save" spells and tactics are still there and completely on course. Additionally, he's just as effective out of combat.

So, yes, gold is a vital resource for one class to have and not the other.

When "gold" becomes the way in which you're answering that the two classes are equal you are saying that:

[*]A fighter can get access to an ability through buying it when his DM lets him and he has money that is not needed to be spent elsewhere. He probably needs to spend that money elsewhere though if he wants to actually perform as a fighter.
[*]A wizard can get access to an ability through buying it when his DM lets him and he has money that is not needed to be spent elsewhere, create his access to it through item creation by the rules of the game, and also has normal, free access to those features on a regular basis by the rules of the game. Any money spent is not hurting as much as the class doesn't particularly need to spend money on other things to keep up with its opponents.
[*]This somehow means they both have equal access to the same abilities, despite the caster obviously having more ways to access those abilities.

No. You obviously have a brain in your skull or you wouldn't manage to do nifty things like type. Try putting it to use.

You nominally had some other points in there, but my eyes glazed over when you got to the strawman about fighters and scrolls, which was part of your larger strawman about fighters being fake wizards.

Actually I was addressing the only possible way in which you might have logically thought you had some sort of point without being so hilariously provably wrong, so I was assuming you were a little stupid and thought "tome fighters can make and use scrolls" instead of imagining you were unimaginably stupid and thought "fighters might be given limited access to certain abilities sometimes on a DM whim, but a wizard can also access those abilities in the exact same way as well as several other ways and 1=1+1+1."