The Gaming Den

Well, that would certainly make playtesting easier.

Why do Bruce Cordell and Mike Mearls still have jobs?

No, seriously, why do Bruce Cordell and Mike Mearls still have jobs?

What the fuck is wrong with this world, when those douches can be in the Dream Team for 5E D&D and Sean K. Reynolds, a guy who offered to write feats to raise money for his kitty-cat, is the co-designer of Pathfinder?

Why? Why? WHY?!

Why the fuck do Bruce Cordell and Mike Mearls still have jobs?!?!

Lago PARANOIA wrote:[..] Sean K. Reynolds, a guy who offered to write feats to raise money for his kitty-cat, is the co-designer of Pathfinder?

He's not. He has the job title of "Developer", along with four other guys.

I would like to place a large wager on "the open playtesting is a marketing ploy, again"

I will also restate my own bias that "We’ve listened to both praise and criticism from all D&D fans, regardless of their edition of choice," is a pretty damning outright admission that they're taking feedback from 2e fans as if it's somehow worth something.

Josh_Kablack wrote:I would like to place a large wager on "the open playtesting is a marketing ploy, again"

As if anyone here will take you up on that.

Lago PARANOIA wrote: Why the fuck do Bruce Cordell and Mike Mearls still have jobs?!?!

I wonder the same thing about Monte Cook.

escapist or something wrote:I was in a play testing group for 4th edition back in 2007, and we submitted a 30 page annotated document of what we felt worked and what didn't work with the rules we played. Other than my name among the hundreds of play testers in the back of the 4th edition Player's Handbook, nothing I submitted made it into print. Our feedback was summarily ignored, and Mearls admitted that was essentially true of all the feedback Wizards received from the 4th edition play test.

Good thing 4e had playtesting then

- Edit:

Mearls wrote:"We're also exploring ideas for conversion tools so that some of the 4th edition characters and content will be playable with the next edition." In other words, Wizards vows it's not replacing 4th edition, but merely adding another layer of rules that will cater to the people unhappy with the latest edition's changes.

Well..... fuck

*sigh* This probably falls into the category of "fool me once ..."

I feel that basing significant decisions on Internet feedback from the fans is a path to mediocrity at best, in case of a fanbase with strong predominant opinion that also matches the voice of vocal minority on the net. In case of a fanbase plagued with massive rifts and contradictory opinions... well, you'll likely get 4E or nWoD. nWoD, for the example I know better, catered to the predominant forum complaints and opinions about oWoD very much. Except, as it happened, a number of these complaints did not reflect what majority of the player base thought, and simple removal/change of things people tended to bitch about did not equate designing an enjoyable game.

Doesn't matter. Their forums are clogged up with contradictory and conflicting design goals, meaning people aren't going to get what they want and the playtest results will be a big pile of fuck.

CapnTthePirateG wrote:Doesn't matter. Their forums are clogged up with contradictory and conflicting design goals, meaning people aren't going to get what they want and the playtest results will be a big pile of fuck.

I guess that depends what the participants are expecting.

If they're expecting that large scale suggestions will be followed, they're deluding themselves.

If they're expecting that some smale scale suggestions might be taken, that may well be the case.

ishy wrote:

Mearls wrote:"We're also exploring ideas for conversion tools so that some of the 4th edition characters and content will be playable with the next edition." In other words, Wizards vows it's not replacing 4th edition, but merely adding another layer of rules that will cater to the people unhappy with the latest edition's changes.

Well..... fuck

Literally laughed out loud when I read that. God damn I hope this quote is baseless and just marketing.

CapnTthePirateG wrote:Doesn't matter. Their forums are clogged up with contradictory and conflicting design goals, meaning people aren't going to get what they want and the playtest results will be a big pile of fuck.

At this point, the D&D playerbase is so split that I don't think it's even possible to bring them back together.

4E fans want:
-Longer combats where removal of a participant is difficult
-A power balance between spellcasters and martial characters
-Relatively low power dungeon crawls where you can't do much besides kill stuff.

3E fans want:
-Short combats where one roll can potentially remove a participant entirely.
-Spellcaster dominance
-High level powers that allow you to teleport around at will, break economies and resurrect people that have been dead for hundreds of years.

FatR wrote:I feel that basing significant decisions on Internet feedback from the fans is a path to mediocrity at best, in case of a fanbase with strong predominant opinion that also matches the voice of vocal minority on the net. In case of a fanbase plagued with massive rifts and contradictory opinions... well, you'll likely get 4E or nWoD. nWoD, for the example I know better, catered to the predominant forum complaints and opinions about oWoD very much. Except, as it happened, a number of these complaints did not reflect what majority of the player base thought, and simple removal/change of things people tended to bitch about did not equate designing an enjoyable game.

This. People on the forums bitched about how Celerity was overpowered. They bitched about this constantly. NWoD went to print and fucked advertised themselves with "Now with Nerfed Celerity!". This was not an improvement.

The thing that people actually did not like was not the part where people who moved really fast were able to kill normal people - that is a fucking given. The thing they didn't like was the part where Celerity caused the game to slow down because of all the fucking die rolling you had to do. They didn't want celerity nerfed, they wanted celerity resolution sped up.

Listening to the internet complaints is a fucking waste of time, because not one fanboy in a hundred can actually identify why they don't like something. They look at 4e D&D and they know they don't fucking like it, but they don't know why. So if you listen to them all you're going to end up with is a bunch of people pointing out that they are vaguely dissatisfied and a couple of buzzwords like how they want it to be less like World of Warcraft.

-Username17

Related:
http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... r-die.html

So the votes aren't really free - they cost time. If you do the math, it's actually quite obvious that if your popularity contest for ideas inherently, by its structure, favors people who waste their own time, then your contest will produce winners which are actually losers.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:What the fuck is wrong with this world, when those douches can be in the Dream Team for 5E D&D and Sean K. Reynolds, a guy who offered to write feats to raise money for his kitty-cat, is the co-designer of Pathfinder?

I am confused, is this a good thing, or a bad thing about Sean K. Reynolds and whether he should have been in on 5e or not?

If this comes out before E20 I will be pissed. Though not altogether surprised...

An open, Paizo-like playtest, where the fans of all the editions are invited? I should grab some popcorns, this seems like it should be fun.

Someone should light the Shad-signal and Roy-signal and the 2012. will be an entertaining year indeed.

Kobajagrande wrote:An open, Paizo-like playtest, where the fans of all the editions are invited? I should grab some popcorns, this seems like it should be fun.

Someone should light the Shad-signal and Roy-signal and the 2012. will be an entertaining year indeed.

I actually saw someone on another board hoping they'd use thaco in 5e.

Kobajagrande wrote:Someone should light the Shad-signal and Roy-signal and the 2012. will be an entertaining year indeed.

Ugh, please don't.

What I want/hope is for them to give clear goals with their rules, so we can value them on that, rather than PF's "did you have fun with it in the room?"

Yeah, I've seen people talk about how either "hopefully" or "obviously" there will be a return to THAC0 and descending Armour Class. And percentile roll-under skills. And combat-ticks like Exalted does Initiative.

And others saying that "adding another layer to 4E" really just means "adding 3d combat to it".

I can't wait for the "We like 3E, this is fu- wait, there's a new edition? FUCK 3E IT IS THE WORST GAME EVER, HOORAY, 4E IS GLORIOUS, IT IS THE BEST GAME EVER" crowd to turn on 4E like a pack of wolves. Bonus points if it turns out it IS actually about gay ponies romping through 14th century Bavaria.

Since Monte Cook is the design team lead, I really wonder just how much 4e is going to get in. I mean, he doesn't have any 4e work under his belt.

HalcyonUmbra wrote:There's an article up on the Escapist. I lost it at the end of the first paragraph.

Greg Tito wrote:For the first time, the creators of D&D are setting out to create a role playing system that is compatible with - and takes inspiration from - every previous edition of the game.

Ah yes, because this works so well for Battletech.

BearsAreBrown wrote:

ishy wrote:

Mearls wrote:"We're also exploring ideas for conversion tools so that some of the 4th edition characters and content will be playable with the next edition." In other words, Wizards vows it's not replacing 4th edition, but merely adding another layer of rules that will cater to the people unhappy with the latest edition's changes.

Well..... fuck

Literally laughed out loud when I read that. God damn I hope this quote is baseless and just marketing.

Meh, there's pretty much always conversion guides between editions. If I recall, Dragon had "convert your 2e character to a 3e," and "convert your 3e character to 3.5e" guides.

It's basically just "Look, if you're an idiot who thinks a new edition means you have to change the character you've been playing for the last five years, here, this is how you make that character in the new system, now go buy a book."

I knew the storms where brewing for the most epic clash of rpg nerds ever.

I mean, look. There are the AD&D fans. And they are hardcore. Like, Old Testament hardcore. I mean, their game hates them, AND THEY LOVE IT! You can't go more hardcore than that.

Then there are the 3E fans. They are the Warhammer Orcs. They are the fucking Green Tide! There's so many of them they'll seem like an endless ocean of hate. And their hate is still hot. And there are so many different groups among them that all have one thing in common: they hate each other more than they hate the others.

You have the "fighters should be fighting with lollypops" crowd. You have the "fighters should be farting thunder and lightning and killing multidimensional creatures by shooting their multidimensional-piercing-so-powerful-like-magic-yet-not-magic bullet sperm at them". Then you have the "no dices should be rolled at all" group. The "dices should be rolled for all" sect. The "Pathfinder rules" caste, the "3E is the one true way" caste, the "Tomes uber alles" caste, and god knows how many more splinter groups. Animosity tests will be failed! Chaos overwhelming!

Then you have the 4E crowd, which still keep their last shreds of self-dignity by deluding themselves that their game is good. And they will fight to the bitter end for their right to keep deluding themselves.

And you have the OD&D crowd. They are like fucking Elder Gods. They were there before the beginnings of time. No one knows what they're saying, but they keep saying it, and damn if anyone is going to stop them from doing so.

And add to that the few, the bold, the unbreakable, the fans of other rpgs, completely unrelated to D&D, who will make partisan and pirate raids into the fray. WoD, nWoD, GURPS, Rolemaster, Warhammer... You fucking name it.

And add to all THAT that is going to last for at least a year. AND THEN, you will have EACH of these groups split further, into those who support the 5E, and those who oppose 5E.

Yes, it will be a bloodbath of epic proportions. The Apocalypse, Ragnarok, the Final Confrontation is ahead of us.