5e isnt even D&D....

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:52 am

Whatever wrote:
shadzar wrote:you CAN define Chaos ... you CAN define Law.
Please do.

He did.

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=53209

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:52 am

Wow, Giant Frog - that was very insightful. Please tell us more.

Giant Frog · Post by **Giant Frog** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:17 am

GIANTFROG GIANTFROGGIANT FROG FROGFROGGIANTGIANTFROGFROG GIANTGIANT FROGGIANT GIANTGIANT FROG GIANTGIANTGIANT GIANT GIANTFROGGIANTGIANT GIANTGIANTFROGGIANT FROGFROGGIANTGIANTFROGFROG GIANTGIANT GIANTGIANTGIANT GIANTFROG FROGGIANT GIANTFROG FROG FROG GIANT FROGFROG GIANTFROGFROGGIANT FROG FROG FROGFROGFROG FROGGIANTGIANTGIANT GIANTFROGGIANT GIANTGIANT FROGGIANT FROGFROGGIANT FROGFROGFROG GIANTFROGGIANT FROGGIANTGIANT GIANT GIANTFROGGIANT FROGFROGFROG GIANTGIANTFROG FROG FROGFROGFROG GIANTGIANTFROGGIANT FROGGIANTFROGGIANT GIANTGIANTGIANTGIANT GIANTFROG FROGFROGFROG GIANTGIANTGIANT GIANTFROGGIANTFROGGIANTFROG

GIANTGIANT GIANTFROG FROGFROG FROGFROGFROG GIANTGIANTFROG FROG FROGFROGFROG GIANTGIANTFROGGIANT FROGGIANTFROGGIANT GIANTGIANTGIANTGIANT GIANTFROG FROGFROGFROG GIANTGIANTGIANT GIANTFROGGIANTFROGGIANTFROG

GIANTGIANT GIANTFROG FROGFROG GIANTFROG GIANTFROGGIANT FROG GIANTFROGGIANTFROGGIANTFROG

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:20 am

wotmaniac wrote:Wow, Giant Frog - that was very insightful. Please tell us more.

This is a shadzar thread. If that was the direction this thread went, I honestly wouldn't complain.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:46 am

Not sure it's a good idea to encourage her.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:49 am

fectin wrote:Not sure it's a good idea to encourage her.

Why? For fear that it just might turn in to Mega-Giant Frog?

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:58 am

For fear its appetite will lead it to other threads.

Yours is good too though.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:10 am

Watch out -- he may be spawning.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:22 am

For the record, I seriously have no idea who Ant and Giant Frog are. I find it hilarious that it's gone this far though.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:04 am

sake wrote:
shadzar wrote:
its like the races i was just saying about tiefling.. people SHOULD have them as an option, but it doesnt mean they need to be an option form the start. keep the core simple and make sense.
First off the 'This race are only ever Monsters, and this race are only ever PCs' crap is dead...

sorry, did you read the part where they are trying to capture the "feel" of EACH edition, not just the WotC created crap?

guess what in TSR editions, monsters were monsters. sorry, but grow up and accept it. if you want to have people playing D&D that played those editions, then odds are they want monsters as monsters as a default. they dont want to have to hear some 12 year old bitching they cant play this scaley skinned horned demon looking fucker, so dont force the to have to get into that arguement. the core should be SMALL and COMMON to all editions, and should be EASILY added onto.

also sorry to inform you but there was MANY more editions under TSR than under WotC, so core will look closer to TSR editions IF done right, to get BACK those that have been gone form the game as customers for OVER A DECADE.

TSR:
OD&D
B/X, BD&D
BECMI
AD&D
AD&D 2nd

WotC:
3.x
4.x

technically the Chainmail supplement can be thrown out as it wasnt yet an RPG, leaving only 4 for TSR, and 2 for WotC.

how many of those had tiefling in core? assassin? half-orc? etc.?

the core should be built off the core, and then you can add to it. without a strong foundation the structure that will be 5e will collapse as soon as or quicker than 4th did.

Adding the tiefling in the core book costs you maybe two pages and help ensures the weirdos who love that race buy your book at release instead of waiting months for you to finally print the splat book that includes their favorite pet race.

that two pages can cost LOTS of arguments and be a defining, such as 4th, quality of the core game, which is NOT compatible with the other editions, same for warforged.

who said months later for books? they dont haev to release things staggered, and could easily just have a book or PC races ready to go at the time of initial release. depending on how the modular rules elements are presented, then they could release everything at once with maybe 8 books right away with PLENTY of options.

8 books at current prices = 8 * $45 = $360

$360...about the price of a new console system. the reason they stagger books releases isnt always because the book isnt ready, but so the consumer doesnt get slapped with Ptolus silly kind of pricing. let the consumer do jsut that consumer, rather than choke them. get a book read it, use it some to get used to it, all the while they save more for the next book, and can buy it when released.

pet races or pet classes, could easily come out with PHB/DMG/MM. bitch at them for the release schedule NOT ME.

pssst: DDI will still exist, but in what fashion who knows. i doubt they will remove 4th edition tools or compendium, but they would sure like to get 5e revenue so could easily release pet races there for subscribers. maybe they give a non-core race away for free BEFORE the PHB comes out, so people can glimpse the rules to water their mouths, then the PHB comes out and they are ready to learn what these parts mean form it?

you are thinking to small thinking months for a book to come out, when they can print and edit it all at once as should be done with the basics, and a race wont offer much for the basic play if it REALLY intends to play like BD&D. you think they waited until 4th core was printed to start printing the rest? it would have NEVER been ready on a monthly schedule at that rate unless WotC has a proprietary printer than ONLY WotC users, or is its own printer.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:11 pm

shadzar wrote: sorry, did you read the part where they are trying to capture the "feel" of EACH edition, not just the WotC created crap?

guess what in TSR editions, monsters were monsters.

Guess what? If they want to capture the "feel" of each edition, then they have to incorporate in material from each edition. People can use it or not as they choose to tailor their games to their own experience.

Retard.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:08 pm

sorry, did you read the part where they are trying to capture the "feel" of EACH edition, not just the WotC created crap?

guess what in TSR editions, monsters were monsters.

Except when they were changed like the Minotaur, lizardmen, ogres, half-ogres, satyr, swanmays, wemics, and etc.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:35 pm

@Leress:

now you know settings ALWAYS did what they want and cannot be defined as the "feel" of an edition otherwise we would have no metal weapons (via Dark Sun), 3 moons that affect magic potency (via Dragonlance), "kekkai genkai" (bloodline special something) (via Birthright), magical mutation that warps the flesh and abilities (via Red Steel),....should i go on?

2.5 (Player's Options) proved that as OPTIONS, other races can be added.....

RobbyPants wrote:
shadzar wrote: sorry, did you read the part where they are trying to capture the "feel" of EACH edition, not just the WotC created crap?

guess what in TSR editions, monsters were monsters.
Guess what? If they want to capture the "feel" of each edition, then they have to incorporate in material from each edition. People can use it or not as they choose to tailor their games to their own experience.

Retard.

...but those OPTIONS don't have to be core. they have rules modules to plug-and-play with.

if they start with 3.x as the base system you wont get back people who prefer the 5 saves, or the one.

THAC0 was a simple system because it didnt have extra math. do one bit of math and compare two numbers. those numbers ALWAYS stayed within a certain range. the unlimited range of BAB with the added math part shows bigger is better doesnt work for everyone because the numbers get away from you. your common villager can no longer defend himself even on luck because the AC of an opponent it unreachable. this sets up a certain type of playstyle that NOT everyone wants.

and they have already said they wont be using THAC0, but what will they do then to keep a small range of target ACs to make the playstyle of anyone can get luck and hurt anything?

the races and rules, and classes and playstyles for EACH edition will be in those "rules modules"...Monte and Mike claim.

starting with Basic that Mearls is playing and making that CORE will be the best thing. cheap price point to get more people in and hooked to buy more optional modules like higher levels, other races, etc. just look how many people play BECMI...it was the firstwith all kinds of iptional and even if you played BEC while another group played BECMI,,,you were playing the same game.

this is what 5e strives for, and can be done...but its adding the editions as options. not that tricky. if people want Leress's wemic, thrikeen, aarocka, bullywug and the rest as races form 2.5, then they CAN be options.. but the core would be foolish to overload the foundation with, otherwise you dont have much room to build more onto it because it will already be too crowded.

you seem to think that there should be EVERYTHING in the first PHB...grow up and realize that that $300 book wont exist, because nobody would buy it. just look how unwieldy Ptolus is @700 pages and about 3 inches think.

this is why 2nd switched form the MCs to the MM with a core selection. the books have to have content, but that content must be in a usable fashion...so some things get left out for later.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:37 pm

THAC0 was a simple system because it didnt have extra math. do one bit of math and compare two numbers. those numbers ALWAYS stayed within a certain range. the unlimited range of BAB with the added math part shows bigger is better doesnt work for everyone because the numbers get away from you. your common villager can no longer defend himself even on luck because the AC of an opponent it unreachable. this sets up a certain type of playstyle that NOT everyone wants.

If a character rolls a natural 20 they hit them no matter the AC.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:37 pm

I suspect in 5e the Fighter will remain the Dumb Ol Full Attacker just because there will always be a subsection of grognards that want exactly that.
THAT is legacy. THAT is catering to everyone's preferences, because the Fighter as it always has been is nothing more.
Anything more complex will draw their Cheeto-slathered, hamfisted ire for thousands of posts.

Even with 4e's powers setup for Fighters and 3e's Warblade there are players that want nothing but to move and make attack rolls.

It will continue the hatred of class imbalance for yet another generation of gamers.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:46 pm

Leress wrote:
THAC0 was a simple system because it didnt have extra math. do one bit of math and compare two numbers. those numbers ALWAYS stayed within a certain range. the unlimited range of BAB with the added math part shows bigger is better doesnt work for everyone because the numbers get away from you. your common villager can no longer defend himself even on luck because the AC of an opponent it unreachable. this sets up a certain type of playstyle that NOT everyone wants.
If a character rolls a natural 20 they hit them no matter the AC.

only if the confirmation roll is also a 20 or something like that for 3.x or BAB IIRC.

sigma999 wrote:I suspect in 5e the Fighter will remain the Dumb Ol Full Attacker just because there will always be a subsection of grognards that want exactly that.
THAT is legacy. THAT is catering to everyone's preferences, because the Fighter as it always has been is nothing more.
Anything more complex will draw their Cheeto-slathered, hamfisted ire for thousands of posts.

Even with 4e's powers setup for Fighters and 3e's Warblade there are players that want nothing but to move and make attack rolls.

It will continue the hatred of class imbalance for yet another generation of gamers.

well the grognards can easily have that fighter in core, and the addition of options can let the babies in diapers have their wuxia/weeaboo fighters, and never the twain shall meet.

(fixed your post quoted because im sure you mean "hatred of balance" not)

there doesnt need ot be class balance though because this isnt a PvP game. each PC is a part of the group, they should compliment each other, not work against each other..

you have to accept that in the presence of all-powerful can-do-anything magic, that some people still do want mortals to exist in the world that are mundane, and want to be able to be that mortal that arrives at greatness. dirt farmer done good, is a valid playstyle no matter what some people wish to believe otherwise, and its fun too!

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:50 pm

only if the confirmation roll is also a 20 or something like that for 3.x or BAB IIRC.

No, that is to confirm a critical.

SRD wrote:Automatic Misses and Hits

A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on the attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:58 pm

Leress wrote:
only if the confirmation roll is also a 20 or something like that for 3.x or BAB IIRC.
No, that is to confirm a critical.

SRD wrote:Automatic Misses and Hits

A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on the attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm

never even knew that was standard, thought since the DM was old-school we just instinctively added natural 20 always hits from previous editions. and searching for those type things on srd isnt easy if you dont know where to look...

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:02 pm

Try the search box.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:04 pm

What a surprise.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:15 pm

fectin wrote:Try the search box.

I used "critical".

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:57 pm

Leress, thank you for quoting shadzar.

Otherwise, I'd never have noticed this gem:

THAC0 was a simple system because it didnt have extra math.

Made my day.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:08 pm

Darth Rabbitt wrote:Leress, thank you for quoting shadzar.

Otherwise, I'd never have noticed this gem:

THAC0 was a simple system because it didnt have extra math.
Made my day.

But he is right, in 3.x you had to ... ADD more often then in 2nd.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:31 pm

Leress wrote:
Darth Rabbitt wrote:Leress, thank you for quoting shadzar.

Otherwise, I'd never have noticed this gem:

THAC0 was a simple system because it didnt have extra math.
Made my day.
But he is right, in 3.x you had to ... ADD more often then in 2nd.

less stacking and less things that could stack that you had to track down... aka 2nd had no christmas tree magic items. only the BEST Prot item works be it ring, cloak etc so only a single modifier and the max was +5 be it form magic or equipment, etc. get your +5 bonus, stop trying to find more stuff to stack on.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:51 pm

sigma999 wrote:I suspect in 5e the Fighter will remain the Dumb Ol Full Attacker just because there will always be a subsection of grognards that want exactly that.
THAT is legacy. THAT is catering to everyone's preferences, because the Fighter as it always has been is nothing more.
Anything more complex will draw their Cheeto-slathered, hamfisted ire for thousands of posts.

Even with 4e's powers setup for Fighters and 3e's Warblade there are players that want nothing but to move and make attack rolls.

It will continue the hatred of class imbalance for yet another generation of gamers.

And thus history repeats itself, and I start wishing I did not share air with those people. Then again, can I judge them if they're having fun playing the game in a rather manner?