COs are usually pretty cool to look at. But, I've always been a fan of naturally built classes. Just randomly adding a class for a level or so every level or two level just isn't my thing.
There are some cool natural builds. Cleric archer is a pretty good build like this. In a tome game with non CO "role players" (or retarded players).
Of course, this falls into Cleric/wizard/druid trap. I mean those are mostly the few natural builds that are mostly viable in non tome games. Are there any other good builds that usually fall into this category. I mean I don't mind two to three classes in a build. Even if that means just taking one to two levels in them. But, other than that, are there any good examples.
Cynic
Character Optimization request thread.
Moderator: Moderators
Most bloodline shenanigans aren't really worthwhile in actual play, they're just fun theoretical things. To expand on Winnah's examples, if you have 3 levels in a major bloodline and take 1 level of binder and 1 level in each of the PrCs that say "Add levels in this class to binder to determine everything," you can bind max-level vestiges as the equivalent of an ECL 8 character, and do things like telekinetically lift several tons with Ronove's telekinesis ability or deal 16d6 sudden strike with Marchosias. If you instead do bloodline 3+1 level in each of 7 different classes + 1 level in each of swordsage, warblade, and crusader, you can pick up all 9 9th-level ToB maneuvers by ECL 13 thanks to the IL mechanic. If you take all 3 levels in 3 different major bloodlines, 1 level of monk, and 1 level in each of 6 different monk PrCs that say "Your X levels stack with monk to determine speed, AC, etc." you can run around at Mach 5 and have a touch AC of 50ish by ECL 13.Seerow wrote:I'd like some sort of example, because as far as I'm aware bloodlines don't get access to that sort of shenanigans. They're basically templates that spread their LA out over the course of 20 levels, but are weaker than any similar LA race.
Is it fun to be able to move castles with your mind and run at Mach 5? It can be. Is it worth the XP expenditure? Not in the slightest. Do you care about dozens of d6s of sneak attack or a high AC or movement speed in an actual game? Not really, particularly since you're getting them at the cost of things like HP and any other class features.
Last edited by Emerald on Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Emerald wrote:Most bloodline shenanigans aren't really worthwhile in actual play, they're just fun theoretical things. To expand on Winnah's examples, if you have 3 levels in a major bloodline and take 1 level of binder and 1 level in each of the PrCs that say "Add levels in this class to binder to determine everything," you can bind max-level vestiges as the equivalent of an ECL 8 character, and do things like telekinetically lift several tons with Ronove's telekinesis ability or deal 16d6 sudden strike with Marchosias. If you instead do bloodline 3+1 level in each of 7 different classes + 1 level in each of swordsage, warblade, and crusader, you can pick up all 9 9th-level ToB maneuvers by ECL 13 thanks to the IL mechanic. If you take all 3 levels in 3 different major bloodlines, 1 level of monk, and 1 level in each of 6 different monk PrCs that say "Your X levels stack with monk to determine speed, AC, etc." you can run around at Mach 5 and have a touch AC of 50ish by ECL 13.Seerow wrote:I'd like some sort of example, because as far as I'm aware bloodlines don't get access to that sort of shenanigans. They're basically templates that spread their LA out over the course of 20 levels, but are weaker than any similar LA race.
Is it fun to be able to move castles with your mind and run at Mach 5? It can be. Is it worth the XP expenditure? Not in the slightest. Do you care about dozens of d6s of sneak attack or a high AC or movement speed in an actual game? Not really, particularly since you're getting them at the cost of things like HP and any other class features.
Okay I guess I can see that, I just always kind of made the assumption that the improvement would only apply to a single class, not every class you have a single level in.
Despite what I just said about natural builds, if I can have a monk build that actually stands fine with Wizards and such, I would be fine. Sure, it might be a little overkill but with the bag of tricks spellcasters have, monks might as well have two things they are useful at.
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NineInchNall
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To respond to Lago's initial request ... Dragon content warning!
Dragon 349 has a Class Acts section devoted to Psionics+Arcane feats. The important ones for a Cerebremancer type to consider are:
Chameleon Crafting
You can make magic items that use psionic powers and vice versa.
Psiotheurgist
You pick a school of magic. When casting spells from that school or manifesting powers from the corresponding discipline, your caster/manifester level is the sum of your caster level and manifester level.
Now you cheese your way into taking fewer than 3 wizard or psion levels to get into Cerebremancer. This could be through Precocious Apprentice, or by taking then trading out levels through level loss shenanigans. Doesn't matter.
Sure, you're down a level of advancement, but you have Psiotheurgist, so you manifest spells and powers at twice your character level.
Aside: You can qualify for Cerebremancer with only one level of Ardent and Practiced Manifester. This makes the Psiotheurgist option much more attractive, but the power list for the Ardent is rather anemic. Anyway ...
In general, though, an Erudite seems to fit what you're asking for. You're an Erudite (variant Psion from Complete Shit that can learn any number of powers) with the Convert Spell-To-Power expanded class option that lets you learn arcane spells as powers - except you don't have to use material components or foci. Yay, you! Note that that's arcane spells, not wizard spells.
You could even take some levels of Thrallherd. Abuse the sacrifice rules in Book of Vile Darkness for all sorts of stuff. Have psionic members of your herd teach you powers. Have spellcasting members of your herd teach you spells. Whatever.
Another way into Cerebremancer: Learn the spell Mental Pinnacle. You now qualify for Cerebremancer. (Possible objection: "You can't cast spells while that's active!" So what, you can't cast a spell and manifest a power at the same time anyway.)
Mental Pinnacle is odd with the Spell-to-Power Erudite. If you manifest it, it 1) disables your spellcasting ability and 2) changes how you use psionic items. Both of these are whoop-te-do, because you manifest powers.
Dragon 349 has a Class Acts section devoted to Psionics+Arcane feats. The important ones for a Cerebremancer type to consider are:
Chameleon Crafting
You can make magic items that use psionic powers and vice versa.
Psiotheurgist
You pick a school of magic. When casting spells from that school or manifesting powers from the corresponding discipline, your caster/manifester level is the sum of your caster level and manifester level.
Now you cheese your way into taking fewer than 3 wizard or psion levels to get into Cerebremancer. This could be through Precocious Apprentice, or by taking then trading out levels through level loss shenanigans. Doesn't matter.
Sure, you're down a level of advancement, but you have Psiotheurgist, so you manifest spells and powers at twice your character level.
Aside: You can qualify for Cerebremancer with only one level of Ardent and Practiced Manifester. This makes the Psiotheurgist option much more attractive, but the power list for the Ardent is rather anemic. Anyway ...
In general, though, an Erudite seems to fit what you're asking for. You're an Erudite (variant Psion from Complete Shit that can learn any number of powers) with the Convert Spell-To-Power expanded class option that lets you learn arcane spells as powers - except you don't have to use material components or foci. Yay, you! Note that that's arcane spells, not wizard spells.
You could even take some levels of Thrallherd. Abuse the sacrifice rules in Book of Vile Darkness for all sorts of stuff. Have psionic members of your herd teach you powers. Have spellcasting members of your herd teach you spells. Whatever.
Another way into Cerebremancer: Learn the spell Mental Pinnacle. You now qualify for Cerebremancer. (Possible objection: "You can't cast spells while that's active!" So what, you can't cast a spell and manifest a power at the same time anyway.)
Mental Pinnacle is odd with the Spell-to-Power Erudite. If you manifest it, it 1) disables your spellcasting ability and 2) changes how you use psionic items. Both of these are whoop-te-do, because you manifest powers.
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Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Belatedly, to NiN:
I don't care much for the Erudite because of the daily limits on powers. It discourages utility spell use and buffs except in extreme downtimes, especially at low-to-mid levels. Unless you know of a workaround. Hell, if there was a powers-per-day workaround you wouldn't even need Cerebremancer.
To everyone else:
Yes, I am pretty ding dang dong aware that by a strict reading of the rules wizards can scribe any spell known and the Archivist class is thus pointless except for some cheap party-wide buffs (which still makes it pretty useful). Regardless, though, most DMs don't allow that interpretation.
So instead, let's get back to basics. How would an Archivist add whichever filthy wizard and sorcerer spells that they wanted with minimal effort? Minimal effort in this case being DM bullshiting or narrative overwriting. Something unobstrusive or 'fair' like paying money is fine.
I don't care much for the Erudite because of the daily limits on powers. It discourages utility spell use and buffs except in extreme downtimes, especially at low-to-mid levels. Unless you know of a workaround. Hell, if there was a powers-per-day workaround you wouldn't even need Cerebremancer.
To everyone else:
Yes, I am pretty ding dang dong aware that by a strict reading of the rules wizards can scribe any spell known and the Archivist class is thus pointless except for some cheap party-wide buffs (which still makes it pretty useful). Regardless, though, most DMs don't allow that interpretation.
So instead, let's get back to basics. How would an Archivist add whichever filthy wizard and sorcerer spells that they wanted with minimal effort? Minimal effort in this case being DM bullshiting or narrative overwriting. Something unobstrusive or 'fair' like paying money is fine.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Fri May 18, 2012 2:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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CapnTthePirateG
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NineInchNall
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Given that there's no errata for Complete Psion, a careful reading of the Erudite text indicates that a 20th level Erudite is not limited to 11 unique powers per day -- he's limited to 11 unique powers per day per level.Lago PARANOIA wrote:Belatedly, to NiN:
I don't care much for the Erudite because of the daily limits on powers. It discourages utility spell use and buffs except in extreme downtimes, especially at low-to-mid levels. Unless you know of a workaround. Hell, if there was a powers-per-day workaround you wouldn't even need Cerebremancer.
*shrug*
Most people I know nip that one in the bud, though.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Actually a strict reading of the rules doesn't allow wizards to do that.Lago PARANOIA wrote: To everyone else:
Yes, I am pretty ding dang dong aware that by a strict reading of the rules wizards can scribe any spell known and the Archivist class is thus pointless except for some cheap party-wide buffs (which still makes it pretty useful). Regardless, though, most DMs don't allow that interpretation.
To quote the rules directly:
Though you could use 'spell research' to research any spell your dm allows I guessSpellcasters who use spellbooks can add a spell to their book whenever they find one on a scroll or in another caster’s spellbook. The spell to be copied must be on the copier’s class spell list.
Last edited by ishy on Fri May 18, 2012 12:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
Cite? I just searched the SRD and the word "copier" does not appear at all.ishy wrote: Actually a strict reading of the rules doesn't allow wizards to do that.
To quote the rules directly:Spellcasters who use spellbooks can add a spell to their book whenever they find one on a scroll or in another caster’s spellbook. The spell to be copied must be on the copier’s class spell list.
Nor is that phrase or intent apparent in the relevant section "Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook".
Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. If a wizard has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, she can learn spells only from schools whose spells she can cast.
Spells Gained at a New Level
Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school.
Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll
A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll.
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp.
Independent Research
A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. If a wizard has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, she can learn spells only from schools whose spells she can cast.
Spells Gained at a New Level
Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school.
Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll
A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll.
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp.
Independent Research
A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.
Ahhhhh. After some more googling I think I found out. In Rules Compendium page 160, they changed the rules as written. I don't own that book and don't know anybody else who does either. Oops. Sneaky rules mod is sneaky.
Last edited by erik on Fri May 18, 2012 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NineInchNall
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Yeah, that was one of the things I pointed out to people when I got my mitts on the RC.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Ahem. Arcane spells as divine spells on scrolls with minimal use of Leadership (didn't put that in originally, but it needs to be said) or rules chicanery. How does it work?
Fucking psionics.
That's what annoys me about the class. There are three ways to interpret that badly written piece of crap. One way leaves it woefully underpowered compared to the Psion, especially at the levels people play at, the other two ways leave it strictly better than the Psion.NineInchNail wrote:Given that there's no errata for Complete Psion, a careful reading of the Erudite text indicates that a 20th level Erudite is not limited to 11 unique powers per day -- he's limited to 11 unique powers per day per level.
Fucking psionics.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
I'm not sure what three ways you are thinking about, but I see three ways, and two of them are woefully underpowered compared to the Psion, and one of them is woefully underpowered compared to a Wilder, and stupid as shit to boot.Lago PARANOIA wrote:That's what annoys me about the class. There are three ways to interpret that badly written piece of crap. One way leaves it woefully underpowered compared to the Psion, especially at the levels people play at, the other two ways leave it strictly better than the Psion.
Fucking psionics.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Way 1: 1-11 unique powers per day. Period. The one I'm most likely to go with, because the Golden Rule of RAI is that one must always interpret powers in a way that most screws PCs, even if you have to fudge a bit.
Way 2: 1-11 unique powers per particular power level per day. This is the least-likely interpretation, but apparently when this PrC was copied ineptly from Dragon to Complete Psionic this was the original interpretation?
Way 3: 1-11 unique powers per class level per day. Meaning at level 20, you get 220 unique powers. This is the strict RAW interpretation, but remember the Golden Rule.
Way 2: 1-11 unique powers per particular power level per day. This is the least-likely interpretation, but apparently when this PrC was copied ineptly from Dragon to Complete Psionic this was the original interpretation?
Way 3: 1-11 unique powers per class level per day. Meaning at level 20, you get 220 unique powers. This is the strict RAW interpretation, but remember the Golden Rule.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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NineInchNall
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I've actually got a request here, since I too have been away from 3.x for a long while.
I'm trying to build a gish, mostly as a way to avoid having to sandbag all the time. Now, I've pushed my wizard spellcasting down to cohort level (ECL-2) and have a decent array of defenses along with a decent attack bonus.
The thing I need help on is spells to improve damage output. I mean, I've already got bladeweave and wraithstrike, as well as the more circumstantial polymorph. I'd prefer not to have to completely shapeshift in order to have a reasonably lethal auto-attack, but I will if that's the only reasonable way to achieve decent damage output.
Really what I'm looking for are spells that will increase damage output - even if only for a single attack, as I'm fine with doing the hit and run thing.
So, assuming an effective wizard level of at least 8 ... Suggestions?
I'm trying to build a gish, mostly as a way to avoid having to sandbag all the time. Now, I've pushed my wizard spellcasting down to cohort level (ECL-2) and have a decent array of defenses along with a decent attack bonus.
The thing I need help on is spells to improve damage output. I mean, I've already got bladeweave and wraithstrike, as well as the more circumstantial polymorph. I'd prefer not to have to completely shapeshift in order to have a reasonably lethal auto-attack, but I will if that's the only reasonable way to achieve decent damage output.
Really what I'm looking for are spells that will increase damage output - even if only for a single attack, as I'm fine with doing the hit and run thing.
So, assuming an effective wizard level of at least 8 ... Suggestions?
Last edited by NineInchNall on Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
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CapnTthePirateG
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There are a couple of spells which give your weapon energy bonuses.
Depending on your build, heroics from the SC may be worth looking into for fighter bonus feats. Use to steal maneuvers.
Haste and it's brother Sakkratar's triple strike (Unapproachable East or some other Faerun book) give extra attacks. STS gives 2 extra attacks and makes your weapon flaming burst and keen, but is 5th level.
Greater Magic Weapon is a must.
Do you have arcane strike (the feat?)
Depending on your build, heroics from the SC may be worth looking into for fighter bonus feats. Use to steal maneuvers.
Haste and it's brother Sakkratar's triple strike (Unapproachable East or some other Faerun book) give extra attacks. STS gives 2 extra attacks and makes your weapon flaming burst and keen, but is 5th level.
Greater Magic Weapon is a must.
Do you have arcane strike (the feat?)
OgreBattle wrote:"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
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Lago PARANOIA
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Well, if you have polymorph, it sounds like you have at least 4th level arcane spells.
If you have the wisdom for it, having Arcane Disciple (Complete Divine): Celestial, Hero, or War domain is a great investment for gishiness. You also sound like you should be pulling levels in Abjurant Champion.
If you really don't want to give no fucks and want to be a decent gish while not pulling any strange level or feat shenanigans, you really can't go wrong with being a Warblade -- or rogue, depending on how many books the DM lets you have -- that takes the Chameleon (Races of Destiny) PrC. However, I am assuming that you're just going to be a straight arcane spellcaster. If you're going to be grab-bagging other spells, I'll add more spell suggestions.
If you're restricted to just using the Spell Compendium, great gish spells are:
Alter Self, 2: Dumpster dive as hard as you can. If you don't feel like it, just change into a lizardman. They have gonzo natural armor. If you really feel like being a dick to your DM, cast this spell on your familiar to turn it into something with two hands and give it a bow -- especially if you're finagling Divine Power from somewhere. Probably the only reason to get the Improved Familiar feat.
Entangling Staff, 3: An extremely strong reason to specialize in quarterstaff attacks.
Giralllon's Blessing, 3: Tons of way to cheese this. You can go unarmed strike wizard and get a whole suite of natural attacks to go with it. Or get other sources of natural attacks (like bite of the werecritter, Stone fist) to stack on top of it. Th
Greater Mage Armor, 3: You ARE going to get this as a gish, right?
Greater Magic Weapon, 3?: Double duh.
Heroics, 2: YOU ARE NOT THE BOSS OF ME, FIGHTER. I got your feats, biyatch!
Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability, 6: It's an extremely resource intensive spell. But it's subject to The Frank Cheat -- just barely getting in under the wire for a Rod of Metamagic, Extend. Why waste time buffing your ass up when your familiar can do it for you?
Magic Circle Against Evil, 3: You'd be honestly surprised at how many people forget this one, but it's one of the best buffs ever printed.
Spell Enhancer, 4: If you're using The Frank Cheat, this is like awesome.
Spell Matrix, Lesser. 5: This lets you store and later cast up to a third level spell as a swift action for 10 minutes/level. If there was ever a reason for gishes to grab pearls of power, it's this.
Spiderskin, 3: You don't have Barkskin for that sweet, sweet natural armor bonus you crave. This is the next best thing.
Steeldance, 3: If you can finagle damage bonuses from somewhere -- which is sadly a lot easier for a cleric than a wizard -- this is a great spell. Two extra attacks of 1d4 + INT/CHA damage? Not really worth it on its own, unfortunately.
Stone Skin, 4?: An oldie but a goldie.
Greater Resistance/Superior Resistance, 3 and 6: They even come pre-TFCed for your convenience!
I'm aware that I'm suggesting more spells than you get for free. But even though I'm a strong believer in Rule Negative 2, I have yet to have a 3E game where I had a problem getting a spell I didn't automatically get provided I forked over the cash.
If you have the wisdom for it, having Arcane Disciple (Complete Divine): Celestial, Hero, or War domain is a great investment for gishiness. You also sound like you should be pulling levels in Abjurant Champion.
If you really don't want to give no fucks and want to be a decent gish while not pulling any strange level or feat shenanigans, you really can't go wrong with being a Warblade -- or rogue, depending on how many books the DM lets you have -- that takes the Chameleon (Races of Destiny) PrC. However, I am assuming that you're just going to be a straight arcane spellcaster. If you're going to be grab-bagging other spells, I'll add more spell suggestions.
If you're restricted to just using the Spell Compendium, great gish spells are:
Alter Self, 2: Dumpster dive as hard as you can. If you don't feel like it, just change into a lizardman. They have gonzo natural armor. If you really feel like being a dick to your DM, cast this spell on your familiar to turn it into something with two hands and give it a bow -- especially if you're finagling Divine Power from somewhere. Probably the only reason to get the Improved Familiar feat.
Entangling Staff, 3: An extremely strong reason to specialize in quarterstaff attacks.
Giralllon's Blessing, 3: Tons of way to cheese this. You can go unarmed strike wizard and get a whole suite of natural attacks to go with it. Or get other sources of natural attacks (like bite of the werecritter, Stone fist) to stack on top of it. Th
Greater Mage Armor, 3: You ARE going to get this as a gish, right?
Greater Magic Weapon, 3?: Double duh.
Heroics, 2: YOU ARE NOT THE BOSS OF ME, FIGHTER. I got your feats, biyatch!
Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability, 6: It's an extremely resource intensive spell. But it's subject to The Frank Cheat -- just barely getting in under the wire for a Rod of Metamagic, Extend. Why waste time buffing your ass up when your familiar can do it for you?
Magic Circle Against Evil, 3: You'd be honestly surprised at how many people forget this one, but it's one of the best buffs ever printed.
Spell Enhancer, 4: If you're using The Frank Cheat, this is like awesome.
Spell Matrix, Lesser. 5: This lets you store and later cast up to a third level spell as a swift action for 10 minutes/level. If there was ever a reason for gishes to grab pearls of power, it's this.
Spiderskin, 3: You don't have Barkskin for that sweet, sweet natural armor bonus you crave. This is the next best thing.
Steeldance, 3: If you can finagle damage bonuses from somewhere -- which is sadly a lot easier for a cleric than a wizard -- this is a great spell. Two extra attacks of 1d4 + INT/CHA damage? Not really worth it on its own, unfortunately.
Stone Skin, 4?: An oldie but a goldie.
Greater Resistance/Superior Resistance, 3 and 6: They even come pre-TFCed for your convenience!
I'm aware that I'm suggesting more spells than you get for free. But even though I'm a strong believer in Rule Negative 2, I have yet to have a 3E game where I had a problem getting a spell I didn't automatically get provided I forked over the cash.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Spells? You already have your swift action spells. If you are burning too many spells in combat then you aren't going to be hacking at stuff.
Get a mount and a lance. Wraithstrike charge power attack.
Surely this gish is of the master race of deep halflings, so you can bring your mount anywhere the rest of the party can travel. Alternatively an improved animal companion could make a so-so mount (winter wolf, warg), if you messed up and didn't make a halfling.
Blade of Blood is a 1st level swifty that can add 3d6 damage to your attack at the cost of 5 HP. I'd recommend layering on some temporary HP before a battle where you intend to use it frequently.
If you have item creation you might be able to work with a druid (or beg to research it yourself) to make light sabers (use activated Flame Blade pommel). Not really powerful, but rather of amusing and already touch attacks so you can skip Wraithstrike. If your druid friend can energy substitute them in creation process then it's even more interesting... having either a bandolier of different energy-sword pommels or have a single 5 button energy saber to decide what color ink you draw with. The sonic saber is my favorite.
Get a mount and a lance. Wraithstrike charge power attack.
Surely this gish is of the master race of deep halflings, so you can bring your mount anywhere the rest of the party can travel. Alternatively an improved animal companion could make a so-so mount (winter wolf, warg), if you messed up and didn't make a halfling.
Blade of Blood is a 1st level swifty that can add 3d6 damage to your attack at the cost of 5 HP. I'd recommend layering on some temporary HP before a battle where you intend to use it frequently.
If you have item creation you might be able to work with a druid (or beg to research it yourself) to make light sabers (use activated Flame Blade pommel). Not really powerful, but rather of amusing and already touch attacks so you can skip Wraithstrike. If your druid friend can energy substitute them in creation process then it's even more interesting... having either a bandolier of different energy-sword pommels or have a single 5 button energy saber to decide what color ink you draw with. The sonic saber is my favorite.
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Duke Flauros
- Journeyman
- Posts: 168
- Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:28 am
The midnight campaign setting comes down hard with the banhammer on what you can/can't do. I was wondering if someone here could break it in half.
Niao! =^.^=
Mike Mearls wrote:“In some ways, it was like we told people, ‘The right way to play guitar is to play thrash metal,’” “But there’s other ways to play guitar.” “D&D is like the wardrobe people go through to get to Narnia,” “If you walk through and there’s a McDonalds, it’s like —’this isn’t Narnia.’”
Tom Lapille wrote:"As we look ahead, we are striving for clarity in both flavor and mechanics.""Our goal with most of the D&D Next rules is that they get out of the way of the action as much as possible."
Mike Mearls wrote:"Look, no one at Wizards ever woke up one day and said 'Let's get rid of all of our fans and replace them.' That was never the intent."
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NineInchNall
- Duke
- Posts: 1222
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Well, at this point I'm looking at 10th level and having somewhere around 100 hp, blade of blood is a rather perfect suggestion. Other things that caught my eye were thunderlance and (as Lago noted) heroics.
Ideally[/i] I would like to improve single strike damage, since it's in line with the pansy-ass, shiny pants, 90 lb. fairy-boy thing I've got going with the whole Faerie Mysteries Initiate thing. Of course, it's totally in theme to avalanche of blades someone, so maybe I'm talking out my ass. It does, however, somehow seem out of theme to hop on a mount and lance some fools.
I mean, yes, I could just pick up power attack & leap attack, grab a valorous weapon, and shell out the cash for a permanent marrusault/leonal/whatever PAO for buckets of damage, but that's ... played out.
Relatedly, it's always bugged me that the only decent, level appropriate combat buff is from the polymorph line. That's bull shit. I should be able to get similar numerics without having to have my character look like a damn monster. [I even had a DM try to alignment-shift me once because I p-morphed into a demon. "That's EVILLLL!"]
Ideally[/i] I would like to improve single strike damage, since it's in line with the pansy-ass, shiny pants, 90 lb. fairy-boy thing I've got going with the whole Faerie Mysteries Initiate thing. Of course, it's totally in theme to avalanche of blades someone, so maybe I'm talking out my ass. It does, however, somehow seem out of theme to hop on a mount and lance some fools.
I mean, yes, I could just pick up power attack & leap attack, grab a valorous weapon, and shell out the cash for a permanent marrusault/leonal/whatever PAO for buckets of damage, but that's ... played out.
Relatedly, it's always bugged me that the only decent, level appropriate combat buff is from the polymorph line. That's bull shit. I should be able to get similar numerics without having to have my character look like a damn monster. [I even had a DM try to alignment-shift me once because I p-morphed into a demon. "That's EVILLLL!"]
Last edited by NineInchNall on Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
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NineInchNall
- Duke
- Posts: 1222
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
It's not that difficult to break Midnight. Many of the truly problematic things one can do (e.g., balor mining, shadow over the sun) are still available. Then there's the restriction on spellcasting, which gives you many fewer spells per day than normal ...Duke Flauros wrote:The midnight campaign setting comes down hard with the banhammer on what you can/can't do. I was wondering if someone here could break it in half.
This just means you focus on long-duration spells that have many many uses. *cough* transmutation *cough* illusion *cough*
Also, if I recall correctly, the penalty for casting beyond your allotment is ability damage. Allow me to laugh heartily at that as a restriction.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
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Duke Flauros
- Journeyman
- Posts: 168
- Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:28 am
I see. I read the campaign setting again. You can cast spells at above your allotment for ability burn, not ability damage- unless you are playing a construct/undead, in which case it is ability damage. If you play a construct, you take STR ability damage for casting over your allotment- which you are immune to, alloing your character to cast infinite spells. Also the item creation rules seem to allow for creation of candles of invocation- if you can get to a power nexus at level 1, and have 336 xp to spare you win.NineInchNall wrote: It's not that difficult to break Midnight. Many of the truly problematic things one can do (e.g., balor mining, shadow over the sun) are still available. Then there's the restriction on spellcasting, which gives you many fewer spells per day than normal ...
This just means you focus on long-duration spells that have many many uses. *cough* transmutation *cough* illusion *cough*
Also, if I recall correctly, the penalty for casting beyond your allotment is ability damage. Allow me to laugh heartily at that as a restriction.
Niao! =^.^=
Mike Mearls wrote:“In some ways, it was like we told people, ‘The right way to play guitar is to play thrash metal,’” “But there’s other ways to play guitar.” “D&D is like the wardrobe people go through to get to Narnia,” “If you walk through and there’s a McDonalds, it’s like —’this isn’t Narnia.’”
Tom Lapille wrote:"As we look ahead, we are striving for clarity in both flavor and mechanics.""Our goal with most of the D&D Next rules is that they get out of the way of the action as much as possible."
Mike Mearls wrote:"Look, no one at Wizards ever woke up one day and said 'Let's get rid of all of our fans and replace them.' That was never the intent."
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Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
One thing to look at is using a bludgeoning weapon + Greater whatever the spell that makes you use a bigger bludgeoning weapon.
I would recommend Girillion's Blessing, then 4 handing using the stupid Savage Species rules for more Str, on a Greatclub that you use the spell that makes it deal damage as a bigger weapon.
I would recommend Girillion's Blessing, then 4 handing using the stupid Savage Species rules for more Str, on a Greatclub that you use the spell that makes it deal damage as a bigger weapon.
Please tell me you were reading the grognardia thread over on therpgsite.NineInchNall wrote:[I even had a DM try to alignment-shift me once because I p-morphed into a demon. "That's EVILLLL!"]
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.