who is a game designer that does not suck at his job?

erik · Post by **erik** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:57 pm

hogarth wrote:
erik wrote:Revolutionary ideas are necessarily just good or bad.
Right. That's why I judge a good designer as a designer who makes good stuff.

Gah, I left out a "not" in that quoted text, but I guess my meaning was interpreted correctly regardless.

It requires less design talent to write more bullshit feats, implement knock-off sneak attack damage types, and rewrite versions of already developed prestige classes. So really the superior way to definitively spot good talent is when someone writes new stuff and it doesn't suck.

I think K's contention was that Monte made new things, and much of the new was also good which is a strong indicator for talent in design. If this isn't his contention then it is at least mine.

I cannot figure by what metric Complete Warrior is in the same neighborhood of quality in design that AE lies. It was basically a rehash of old prestige classes and it nerfed them when non-casters were already hurting. If you think AE is that level of crap then I guess I'll just settle on us having a strong difference of opinion.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:17 am

I assume we're not including members of the Den who have published works, right?

At any rate, I hate to say this but in the realm of wargaming, Matt Fucking Ward has shown that he does good crunch. Fucking awful fluff, he should be banned from that - and he is unable to let go of his personal feelings, so for WHFB he made daemons awesome because he likes them, and made orks and goblins suck because he feels they're supposed to lose. But in Skubhammer 40k, every proper dex (so not the WD sisters "codex") he did is pretty decent - Space Marines (which are held up as the gold standard because everyone plays them), Blood Anals (good in a different, more focused way with some unique interesting options), Grey Knights (some decent choices and builds, even if the WardKnight is a fucking stupid idea thematically - gone is "David beats Goliath", the Dreadknight is taller than the fucking daemons. It's now just a schoolyard bully), and Necrons - they're his favourite force, he did the other stuff as a way of sort of earning the rights to do Necrons, and he didn't fuck them up.

So I will grudgingly say he's good for 40k, and it would be interesting to see what effect he'd have if he was doing RPGs. I imagine his classes/races/urinal cakes would be balanced against each other (probably a bit better than others due to unique/cool abilities - more 3E D&D less 4E D&D), quite out-there and impressive sounding, but with retarded fluff/imagery.

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:55 am

Koumei wrote: So I will grudgingly say he's good for 40k, and it would be interesting to see what effect he'd have if he was doing RPGs. I imagine his classes/races/urinal cakes would be balanced against each other (probably a bit better than others due to unique/cool abilities - more 3E D&D less 4E D&D), quite out-there and impressive sounding, but with retarded fluff/imagery.

So basically, if Ward and the people behind oWoD were put into the LHC, the universe would totally asplode?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:08 am

Quite possibly. That being said, you might get the rules of Ward and the story of oWoD, or you might get the rules of oWoD and the story of Ward. Is that a risk you're willing to take?

It's kind of like how infinite monkeys on typewriters will at some point produce a line of Shakespeare*, but could very well write 4E D&D too, the risks outweigh the benefits.

*Obviously it depends. A mountain gorilla's fingers are too big, he'd just end up typing gibberish no matter how many you had. Likewise the tamarin monkey doesn't have the weight or strength to press typewriter keys, so couldn't type anything. (And at that point I was given detention!)

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:05 am

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Brian Reynolds. I mean yes, he sold out and now he makes Zynga games for giant piles of cash money - but back in the day he made Alpha Centauri, Civilization II, and Rise of Nations.

-Username17

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:20 pm

Koumei wrote:It's kind of like how infinite monkeys on typewriters will at some point produce a line of Shakespeare*, but could very well write 4E D&D too, the risks outweigh the benefits.

The real problem there is that monkeys are horribly inefficient at generating random text. Say what you will about any set of game designers you hate - they are well capable of producing random gibberish at a faster rate than 5 pages per month.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:42 pm

I kind of thought Ancient History was a good designer.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:56 pm

erik wrote:I cannot figure by what metric Complete Warrior is in the same neighborhood of quality in design that AE lies. It was basically a rehash of old prestige classes and it nerfed them when non-casters were already hurting. If you think AE is that level of crap then I guess I'll just settle on us having a strong difference of opinion.

I'm equally perplexed trying to think what is in AU/AE that you think is particularly good.

I sort of liked the idea of breaking up and combining spell slots, because it's a pseudo-spell point system (which some people hate).

The racial class idea was kind of interesting.

That's about it. There were some interesting ideas with terrible implementation (e.g. the witch class), but those pale compared to 4E (the reigning champ of "interesting idea, terrible implementation").

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:06 pm

Surgo wrote:I kind of thought Ancient History was a good designer.

No. It's kind of you to say so, but I have at best a mixed track record with rules. The Infected rules should never have gone out in the state that they did.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:12 pm

Fuck it, I'll say it. Frank Trollman.

That guy who did Settlers of Catan knew what he was doing, I'm pretty sure, and let's not forget Warren Spector (Deus Ex) and Chris Avellone and co.

In terms of TTRPG's, I think we've covered most of them. The guys who designed Paranoia (Greg Costikyan, Dan Gelber and Eric Goldberg, probably deserves some kind of accolade, for sheer originality if nothing else.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:33 pm

Settlers of Catan is a terrible game.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:36 pm

Richard Garfield designed at least one amazing game (Magic)...even if that game has evolved A LOT from its original form since his hands were off it.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:36 pm

Richard Launius and Kevin Wilson designed Arkham Horror, which I enjoy.

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:58 pm

Korgan0 wrote:and let's not forget Warren Spector (Deus Ex) and Chris Avellone and co.

I don't think Chris Avellone has ever made an especially good game. He's told some absolutely gripping stories, though.

Blasted · Post by **Blasted** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:33 am

Vlaada Chvátil

My current favourite game designer.

I find it hard to judge designers on group projects. Matt Ward for example has been involved with some good books (Such as the BA and GK codexes) and some terrible books (Such as WHFB 8th). But Alessio Cavatore was running 40K when those books came out and apparently had a large hand in most of the 5th ed. codexes. Same goes for RPG design. Without insider knowledge you might not know who ti blame for 4e SR's matrix, for instance

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:36 am

Blasted wrote:Vlaada Chvátil

Hell no. He's a hit and miss guy. On his good days we get something good like Galaxy Truckers. On his bad days we get... *in a voice of impending dread and doom* Bunny, Bunny, Moose, Moose.

Best Euro designer for me is Stefan "Teflon" Feld. His fluff never sticks with the mechanics (hence "Teflon"), but his games are always mechanically interesting and generally balanced. He did In The Year of the Dragon, Macao, and The Castles of Burgundy.

Best Ameritrash guy may be Erik Lang, for Chaos in the Old World. However, Quarriors is making me doubt his design skills.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:06 am

AEG has made some pretty quality games. I'm not sure who to credit for it though.

Blasted · Post by **Blasted** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:11 am

I can't believe that there's anyone who doesn't enjoy Bunny, Bunny, Moose, Moose. So you're obviously wrong. Obviously.

I will agree that Quarriors was bad, though.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:15 am

Blasted wrote:I can't believe that there's anyone who doesn't enjoy Bunny, Bunny, Moose, Moose. So you're obviously wrong. Obviously.

Dignity man. Dignity.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:19 am

FrankTrollman wrote:I'm surprised no one has mentioned Brian Reynolds. I mean yes, he sold out and now he makes Zynga games for giant piles of cash money - but back in the day he made Alpha Centauri, Civilization II, and Rise of Nations.

-Username17

Forgot to mention - Reynolds was good, but all his best stuff was developed with Doug Kauffman.

===

That also reminds me. This guy deserves a nomination:

Tetsuya Nakamura

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgamed ... a-nakamura

Totally unknown guy, but he single-handedly made old school wargames playable again with Fire in the Sky, Storm Over Stalingrad, and Victory Lost.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:51 am

...You Lost Me wrote:Settlers of Catan is a terrible game.

But without it, how else will you get people shouting "I've got wood for sheep!"? Which is funny every single time it happens!

Yeah, I am offended that trees died to make that game.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:34 am

Phil Kelly's Dark Eldar codex is the one I'm happiest with. Ward's Grey Knight's are also very versatile and fun.
I don't like the "special characters to change FOC" philosophy though.

Tetsuya Nakamura

Interesting, I'll have to check his stuff out! You have one of his games then?

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:43 am

OgreBattle wrote:Interesting, I'll have to check his stuff out! You have one of his games then?

I own Fire in the Sky. It's probably the best game on the Pacific War that includes the logistical aspect. I've played Storm Over Stalingrad and it plays the smoothest out of the ones in the "Storm" series (which was originally designed by someone else).

One game I've always wanted to buy and try was Victory Lost, but other members of the local club have tried it and they all agree it's one of the best chit and hexes games ever - it very nicely replicates Manstein's famed "backhand blow" at Kharkov; and can be played in only 3-4 hours (as opposed to 6-8 for many games of its type).

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:44 am

Koumei wrote:Yeah, I am offended that trees died to make that game.

Settlers isn't a terrible game, but it often boils down to being a bloody casino.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:38 pm

Zinegata wrote:
Koumei wrote:Yeah, I am offended that trees died to make that game.
Settlers isn't a terrible game, but it often boils down to being a bloody casino.

What do you mean? Just how random it is?