4E is even worse than I thoughtso

[CapnTthePirateG]

Due to the reference to unerrated sleep, I had to look this up. 27 pages of errata for the 4e Players Handbook. Much inconsequential stuff like changing the wizards spellbook to be called "Arcanist's Spellbook." This is a good reason not to play 4e.

We return to the actual topic of this thread.

[Aryxbez]

What books/resources do you have access to? Since someone wasn't using errata it sounds heavily like you're not using the Character Builder; if you are using it, however, what's the date of the last update?

Yes, optimization in 4E D&D is unnecessarily complicated. Why do you ask?

No worries Lago, I'm aware of its complexity (to some degree at least), I've spent time looking at the Class guides over on Wizards. Thankfully one of the best guides there is for the Ranger class, what I'm playing as noted before. Tis a pity such optimization doesn't even come close to going as far as past editions though, but stuff like feycharger and what not did make the game more playable at least. Now, as to your questions, I think we have most of the "Powers" books (I own Martial Power 1 & 2, Demonomicon, the core's save for PHB3), we do use Character Builder, which I was informed the last update to be August 2010. For Essentials stuff, we got Heroes of Shadow/Elemental, Mordkenainan magic item guide thing, and one of the core essential books? As for the case of errata, we do have some houserules, and DM is willing to look past errata sometimes. In the case of Sleep, he was willing to try it out, and maybe change it later if it felt it was "broke".

CapnTthePirateG, In case you don't know now, it basically was where the items surrounding Sleep spell, and the wizard's Orb class feature. Could put a single target into an unsaveable unconscious state due to the massive penalties to the 50/50 D20 roll once they failed their first save (which they would). Which then the PC's could just whomp the creature endlessely till it died, which of cousre any sane DM would just end the encounter from there. Course, if needed something instant, a Rending weapon would do the trick, since you'd coup de grace, crit, Rending keeps giving extra attacks on the target every time you crit....infinite attacks on sleep target till dead.. CHAINSAW!!!

One could say its relevant, as it shows level of optimization that doesn't give a major payout, making another reason to not want to play 4th edition so much.

[CapnTthePirateG]

CapnTthePirateG, In case you don't know now, it basically was where the items surrounding Sleep spell, and the wizard's Orb class feature. Could put a single target into an unsaveable unconscious state due to the massive penalties to the 50/50 D20 roll once they failed their first save (which they would). Which then the PC's could just whomp the creature endlessely till it died, which of cousre any sane DM would just end the encounter from there. Course, if needed something instant, a Rending weapon would do the trick, since you'd coup de grace, crit, Rending keeps giving extra attacks on the target every time you crit....infinite attacks on sleep target till dead.. CHAINSAW!!!

One could say its relevant, as it shows level of optimization that doesn't give a major payout, making another reason to not want to play 4th edition so much.

I knew that. Doesn't change the fact that a) they errataed the entire wizard powerset, b)random crap like turn undead nerf.

You can still orbizard, it's just a bit harder. Like you need to use Slumber of the White Court from Essentials, which knocks the target unconscious for 1d4 hours (!!!) on the first failed save. So you can still stack all that crap like Phrenic Crown, Orb, etc.

Alternatively, you have Spell Focus, Assassin Vine familiar, mask of Terror, Illusionist Gloves, Phiarlian Phantasmist/Entrancing Mystic, and other crap I don't know that still hands out permanent save penalties.

Basically they pulled a Pathfinder spell selection on this one.