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erik
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Post by erik »

OgreBattle wrote:
erik wrote: Han Solo could just as easily have been the main hero of the Star Wars trilogy. The only reasons Jedi were important is because plot said so.
He has no motivation, he only gets dragged in because of the Jedi. If Luke wasn't around, Han would've stayed a drug smuggler and Chewbacca would be trapped as his ethnic sidekick forever.
Seriously? Luke didn't even want to hire Han, that was Obi. If Luke wasn't around then yes, the movie would have to fill in the blanks, but really Luke isn't critical to the first movie except for 1: finding Obi Wan and 2: making the lucky shot.

Obi-wan could have been found by the droids on their own. Han is hired, gets in over his head, falls for princess but won't admit it. His motivation is accounted for. Things could pretty much proceed as normal until the lucky shot at the end. It could just as easily have been Han making the lucky shot to blow up the death star. Luke is almost completely fungible in the first movie.

Come the 2nd and 3rd movies it is trickier since it is a hero's quest story about Luke coming into his power and confronting his father. But if they wanted it could have been a team story and instead of Luke going to solo the guys at the end of RotJ, Han and the rest could have gone in and had a team battle vs. Darth and Emperor.

Hell, the prequels could have been about Han Solo's life. I would have preferred that! No epic stupid wars, just Han getting in less epic situations as a younger scoundrel, his getting kicked out of imperial service, his descent into becoming an outlaw. Wouldn't necessarily need a trilogy for it, but hey they apparently didn't need one for Darth Annie's life either.
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Post by Fuchs »

The problem with Star Wars Fanboys is that they revere the Expanded Universe. The movies are fine, the shitty trash novels are the problem. There you have your jedigodlings and fandalorians wrecking all semblance of sanity.
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Post by Maxus »

Fuchs wrote:The problem with Star Wars Fanboys is that they revere the Expanded Universe. The movies are fine, the shitty trash novels are the problem. There you have your jedigodlings and fandalorians wrecking all semblance of sanity.
Well, I liked Heir to the Empire. Stackpole did some decent stuff. I also liked what couple of the X-wing novels I read.

I just wish Star Wars would fucking realize it's a galaxy of trillions, potentially any setting you'd want would be there, supporting pretty much any story you'd want--mysteries, westerns, war dramas, whatever--and plenty more room for characters.

But instead it turned into "Luke, Han, Leia, and their kids save the galaxy. Again."

Eventually, they tried to make permanent changes to the setting. They decided the best way to do this was go all GrimDark on everyone.

And I think we can all agree that GrimDark sucks.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

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Post by FatR »

Chamomile wrote:I actually don't have a problem with the insane power creep in the prequel films.
I wonder how one can have a problem with something that isn't there to begin with.
Chamomile wrote:Some people (most notably Plinkett, who is now the go-to repository for things to repeat about why the prequels where bad) like to talk about how Jedi carve their way through a half-dozen or more battledroids like they're nothing and say it's a bad thing, but I think it looks cool, so why not? But it is a marked difference from the original trilogy where, as mentioned, a dozen stormtroopers show up and that is actually a problem that people care about.
Yet when OT PCs racked some levels, they easily wasted the entire Jabba's entourage with four people, of which only two were fully combat-capable at the moment. Despite taking their time to fuck around and repeatedly offer Jabba chances to solve their problems without bloodshed. Stormtroopers only suddenly become threatening, when Luke leaves the party, and even then, you seem to forget, it was trendy on intrawebz to point, what useless chumps stormtroopers were, and laugh, before slinging shit at PT apparently distracted from that. Anyone who thing that there is power creep in PT must be too stupid to realize the inevitable consequences of having multiple trained Jedi around. Well or that melee fighting choreography in the entire Hollywood had advanced since Ep.5-6 times (in Ep.4 it was just cheap and poor). And then again, it is PT which gives us examples of a hardcore mercenary or a cyber-augmented warlord taking down fully trained mediocre Jedi and giving hard time to those just one level below their best, even if they ultimately lose.

In EU, on the other hand, there is power creep up the ass, no question, with Jedi sometimes defeating entire starfleets with their mind. But as most of EU is shit, why do we care?
Chamomile wrote:I also think it's debatable whether or not the Rebellion critically benefited from having a Jedi on hand at any point except when Luke blew up the first Death Star.
No debate is possible, if you need to make exceptions that involve the Rebellion failing before it really takes off. And the Empire gives much more fucks about Luke than about the whole rest of the Rebellion in Ep.5-6, which is the only reason the rebels get a chance to assassinate the Emperor at all, and they still were extremely unlikely to succeed without Luke. The entire fleet battle in Ep.6 is staged as a spectacle for Luke.
Chamomile wrote:And even then, if Luke hadn't brought Princess Leia to their doorstep, the Rebellion would've lost Leia but would never have had the Death Star on their doorstep in the first place.
But the outcome in this case is "The Empire successfully terrorizes the Galaxy into submission, the Rebellion remains, but is a mild annoyance for them", which means the Rebeliions fails.
Last edited by FatR on Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Dean »

Apparently a close friend of mine who owns a gaming store is signing up for the Beta of this game, so before too long I'll have the book in hand and I'll post up a full review of what I find here
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Post by Fuchs »

One problem is that fanboys often seem to think that jedi should automatically be better than everyone else, even if we're talking about player characters of the same level.
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Post by echoVanguard »

Aryxbez wrote:Well, going on more than just your word, what does it do to make it "great"? How well, and in what ways, does it fulfill Star Wars fiction using this d6 system's rules? Is there an encounter system, how about for creating/playing alien the large gallery of alien races?
I'll post a full writeup later, but from what I recall there's nothing you can't do in the SWD6 system that a character does in the movies, up to and including the Clone Wars cartoon (if your dice pools are huge enough). It also handles alien races better than most systems, albeit mostly by handwaving anything troublesome.
Aryxbez wrote:Though as I understand, aren't the vehicle rules also rather terrible, don't work as intended, and thus be better off with trying to mine something like spycrafts minigame for it?
I'm not sure if you're asking about SWD6's vehicle rules here or SR4's, but the ones in SWD6 are pretty acceptable provided you're willing to do some math. As long as you have vehicles of roughly the same size engaging each other, things are relatively straightforward - but once you have stuff like hand-blaster vs X-Wing or TIE fighter vs Star Destroyer, you have to break out the scaling rules, and things can get a little dicey.

echo
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Post by Zaranthan »

OgreBattle wrote:Is there something lacking with the Shadowrun carchase rules in this regard?
As much as I love SR4, its vehicle combat and chase rules are a hideous clusterfuck of extraneous attributes (1), rules designed to be used with dicepools of about twelve being used with numbers like fifty (2), and a gigantic "fuck you" at the initiative system (3).

1. Vehicles have all the attributes that creatures do (usually using their driver's stats in place of things they don't have, like Reaction), plus acceleration, speed, handling, pilot, and sensor. Oh, and sensor can be a dozen numbers if you have more than one installed. (that's a rating 4 camera, and a rating 3 motion sensor, and a rating 6 radar, so which one are you using for this specific action? Better not be more than one!)

2. Metahumans have Body and Armor scores pushing ten and twenty if you really apply yourself. Vehicles can start with twenty each, and add another twenty with simple modifications. Ramming can deal up to TRIPLE the Body score in damage, which no passenger has a prayer of soaking. Even at low speeds, it's possible for an armored car to take absolutely no damage from a crash (thanks to the EIGHTY dice it gets to roll to soak damage), but turn all its passengers to paste regardless of seat belts, airbags, a full-body bulletproof cocoon, or whatever else you can dream up to keep yourself safe. You just can't get enough armor to survive.

3. On foot, each turn is three seconds. In a chase, each turn is one minute. So, each driver takes their one action in turn, then their passengers get twenty actions to blast the bejeesus out of each other.
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Post by Surgo »

As far as the WEG d6 game went, you could really only play "party of Jedis" or "party of not-Jedis". The two were not intermixable because the Jedi were just better at life than everyone else was.

There was also this funny bit in the first edition where you were explicitly told you were low-level members of the Rebel Alliance, but they removed that kind of idiocy in the second printing.

They had some really, really stupid flavor shoved in there too.
Last edited by Surgo on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Fuchs »

Was it SWD6 where the incredibly stupid bit that only jedi could use a lightsaber since non-jedi were likely to cut their own limbs off if they used one due to the weightless blade originated?
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Post by Username17 »

Zaranthan wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:Is there something lacking with the Shadowrun carchase rules in this regard?
As much as I love SR4, its vehicle combat and chase rules are a hideous clusterfuck of extraneous attributes (1), rules designed to be used with dicepools of about twelve being used with numbers like fifty (2), and a gigantic "fuck you" at the initiative system (3).
Pretty much this. There are two parts of SR4 that don't work at all:
  • The Matrix
  • Vehicles
Now the matrix is not a problem for Star Wars, because the Star Wars universe doesn't have hacking in it as far as anyone cares. This is kind of weird because there are fucking Droid Armies that you can deactivate by compromising giant machines, so you'd think that hacking and jamming would be really valuable, but it's not because fuck you. However, while that's a giant vat of stupid, it's a good thing when you're converting Shadowrun because it means that you can ditch SR4's nonfunctional Cybercombat and that won't be a genre problem.

Vehicles is a different and much more serious issue. Star Wars has hoverbikes, fighters, submarines, star destroyers, land speeders, walkers, and unfortunately even pod racers. So sadly, you can't just excise the vehicle rules and be done with them. Star Wars needs a plethora of vehicles and heavy weapons. But the problem with SR4's vehicle rules aren't just that they are terribad, but that you literally can't put new numbers in. Basically, you need to convert to a scaling damage system, because SR4 completely breaks down when large weapons hit large defenses.

You could start from the rules mods I was doing for Alt.War before the other people threw a temper tantrum that I refused to make the vehicle rules work without changing the rules.
Shadowrun 4, like any published system, has its share of objectively bad rules. Spirit Essence Drain leads to Bloodzilla, the Matrix Perception Action leads to the Infinity Mirror, and so on. But this section is not about them. This is about transforming the rules into something that can handle something they were never meant to deal with: open warfare and heavy weaponry.

The 4th Edition Shadowrun rules are deliberately and completely written from the perspective of normal humans shooting pistols at each other. And for that they work pretty well. You shoot a bullet into someone and they are hurt but able to fire back. You double tap them in the chest and they pretty much fall down. That is an acceptable result. But it doesn't scale well when you get out of the humans and pistols range. When you shoot an armored truck with a powerful weapon, it is pretty much impossible to damage it – you can only bounce off its armor or blow it to pieces in one shot. And that's unsatisfying. So what we will do is to present a set of rules that put damage onto the same log scale as other skill tasks are in SR4. So that we will be able to get roughly similar results firing big weapons at big monsters as we get by firing small weapons at small monsters.

Damage and Injury
The bigger they are, the bigger a gun it takes to make them fall.

Shadowrun 4th edition experimented with a non-proportional damage system. That is, a box of injury was supposed to represent a similar amount of damage on a troll as it was on an elf – like a hit point in Dungeons & Dragons. And yes, this worked sort of OK for elves and trolls, but it completely falls apart when we deal with dogs and war machines. Things outside the human scale simply do not fit in such a system, and they never will. A small dog should drop from a single pistol shot, a light tank should be able to take two LAV rockets with serious damage. But what can be done about that? The answer is fortunately found in the mechanics of previous editions of Shadowrun: Proportional Damage. That is, when the game generates “Moderate” or “Serious” Injury, that Injury is relative to the target. A moderate injury to a small dog might have been inflicted by a sharp kick, while a moderate injury to a troll might have been inflicted with a rifle, and a moderate injury to an anthromorph combat vehicle might have been inflicted by an assault cannon. But the game generates Moderate Injury after comparing damage to soak, and we fill in the same number of boxes in every case. And that is out of the same total number of boxes in every case as well.

The way this works is that we have in all cases 10 injury boxes. Your hacker has 10 injury boxes, your troll street samurai has 10 injury boxes, your Vietnamese Amphibious Troop Transport has 10 injury boxes. If it becomes important how tough a crow or a rat is – they also have 10 injury boxes. And when injuries occur, we fill them out in distinct amounts based on what kind of Injury they are. Injuries can be Light (one box), Moderate (3 boxes), Serious (6 boxes), Incapacitating (10 boxes), or Deadly (10 boxes + dying). Here's how that looks:

Uninjured:
LMSI
XXXXXXXXXX

Light Wound:
LMSI
XXXXXXXXXX

Moderate Wound:
LMSI
XXXXXXXXXX

Serious Wound:
LMSI
XXXXXXXXXX

Incapacitation:
LMSI
XXXXXXXXXX

But how do we determine whether an Injury should be Light or Serious? We compare it to a chart. Or, if you don't want to look up the chart, every point of unsoaked damage makes the injury one level bigger. Or if you're super into math, each greater injury is the next triangular number of filled in boxes. Or if you're autistically into math, you fill in boxes equal to the number of unsoaked damage times one more than the number of unsoaked damage divided by 2 in boxes out of your 10 total. Anyway, we make our soak roll as normal, and subtract the hits from the incoming damage. And the more incoming damage is left, the bigger an injury we actually suffer:
Unsoaked Damage:Injury Type:Boxes Filled:
0 (or less)None0
1Light1
2Moderate3
3Serious6
4Incapacitating10
5+Deadly10*

  • *: Also, you are dying
That's a start. But unfortunately, in order to get things onto that scale, we're going to have to rewrite the input numbers for armor, weapons, vehicles, and critters. After all, with the proportional system, increasing damage by 5 is the entire difference between one shotting an opponent and bouncing off their armor (or manly chest, as appropriate). This allows us to get rid of all the silly stuff like missiles that do 120 damage, but it also means that we have to rewrite those inputs to make things work. So let's get started on that.
The big difference for Force Users over Shadowrun Magicians is that every Force User gets personal buffs (adept powers) and also knows Force Tricks that drain them but cause impressive extrinsic effects (spellcasting), and that's it. There is no Astral Projection (at least, not while you're alive), and especially no Conjuration. By getting a Magic Attribute, you get Adept Powers and also can learn spells (albeit the spell list in Star Wars land is pretty limited compared to the Shadowrun spell list). You don't split your magic attribute or anything stupid like that - you're just a Sorcerer who gets Adept Powers instead of Conjuration and Astral Perception/Projection.

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Post by Chamomile »

FatR wrote:Yet when OT PCs racked some levels, they easily wasted the entire Jabba's entourage with four people,
Three of whom weren't really important at all. Han sort of took out Boba Fett by accident, then he and Lando spent the entire time at the edge of the Sarlaac contributing nothing to the battle. Chewbecca took out maybe three dudes (I don't recall him actually attacking even one, but whatever). Leia strangled a mostly helpless crime boss and then blew up the ship following Luke's orders in a way that anyone vaguely humanoid, including C-3PO, could've done. And then Luke did everything else. And the prequels have as their very first action sequence five minutes into the first movie two main characters at that level of competence. So yes, the PT power creep was mostly a result of Jedi proliferation, but it's still there.

Sure, it's bizarre and ridiculous that it takes six stormtroopers in full armor to be a fair match for one random smuggler. Stormtroopers totally are terrible shots whose armor doesn't do anything, but in the OT they were at least a threat to the protagonists en masse.
And then again, it is PT which gives us examples of a hardcore mercenary or a cyber-augmented warlord taking down fully trained mediocre Jedi and giving hard time to those just one level below their best, even if they ultimately lose.
Boba Fett seemed to be doing alright against Luke until Han took him out. By accident. Which kind of undermines the "most awesome bounty hunter ever" shtick he had going for him and the scene is generally despised by fans for doing so.

As for Empire vs. Rebels, no Jedi, Final Destination, I don't think you can conclusively say what the respective fighting capabilities of the two factions were that far balanced in favor of the Empire. Although the Empire had a decisive advantage in the battles of Yavin 4 and Hoth, the battle of Endor involves the Rebels blowing up the space station housing the Emperor completely on their own. It's never explicitly stated that the Empire allowed the Rebels to discover the location of the Death Star II to my knowledge, it's just said that he knew they had found out and was using it as bait. Even if discovering the location of the Death Star II was planned by the Empire, what wasn't planned was that the rebels would successfully destroy first the Super Star Destroyer and then the Death Star II, in both cases with zero assistance from Luke Skywalker. And somehow or other they also defeated the rest of the Imperial fleet up there, though how exactly is not demonstrated (quite possibly the remaining ships in the fleet ran away after their flagship and superweapon were blown up). I mean, you say that the Rebels couldn't have assassinated the Emperor without Luke's help, but if Vader hadn't thrown him down a shaft, the only difference would've been that Luke would've died and then Vader and the Emperor would have both been blown up anyway.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

FrankTrollman wrote:Now the matrix is not a problem for Star Wars, because the Star Wars universe doesn't have hacking in it as far as anyone cares.
I seem to recall R2 doing a reasonable amount of hacking-like activity, but it looked like it could be handled extremely simply without long elaborate systems. Probably the same for 'intercepting transmissions.'
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Post by Chamomile »

Hacking is definitely a thing that happens in Star Wars, it's just never the focus.
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Post by sabs »

It's mostly done by r2s. When humans want to hack something, they do it physically, by re-wiring shit.
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Post by erik »

sabs wrote:It's mostly done by r2s. When humans want to hack something, they do it physically, by re-wiring shit. With their blaster.
There we go.
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Post by sabs »

To be fair, Anakin rewires robots all the time without using blasters OR a lightsaber. But yes, everyone else seems to use blasters.
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Post by Whipstitch »

Regardless, the fact that you're not married to William Gibson or Tron makes life way easier because you can get away with leaving way more things behind the curtain-- there's no expectation with Star Wars that Hacking needs to be more exciting or complicated than a Disable Device, Gather Information or Open Lock check. And since Star Wars tends to have a bunch of AIs around oftentimes you may very well just find yourself using your "hacking" skill to contact a droid level intelligence and then throwing your social skills at it until it does what you want without crossing any wires.
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Post by Surgo »

Please remember, guys, that A New Hope came out long before the word "hacking" even entered popular culture, let alone when it became something you did to gain unauthorized entry to a computer system. It also came out before the cyberpunk genre had even been invented! Look at the tech on display in A New Hope. That's seriously what they thought the future was going to look like.

Both hacking and augmented humans are way later inventions, but given what exists in the setting they should both be totally expected and supported.
Last edited by Surgo on Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Whipstitch »

Or you could do the sensible thing and decide that it's space opera and that your time is better spent lasering things.
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Post by Surgo »

Sorry, but that really strains credibility and verisimilitude. If there's a giant robot army then -- like Frank said -- why wouldn't you hack the control ship? That's a valid approach to solving that problem.

Similarly, if people can give themselves superpowers by chopping off their limbs and replacing them with robot limbs, then I'd really expect people to be doing that.
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Post by Whipstitch »

I've found that involved hacking rules are typically sufficiently terrible that I seriously would rather have the big vat of stupid.
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Post by virgil »

Real life hacking is sufficiently non-cinematic, that combined with extrapolations Frank uses to make hackers ever leave their sweat-stained gaming chair in Shadowrun, I can mentally believe that hacking in Star Wars isn't really something that people do; at least in a manner you'd want to have a story about it in an RPG.

Hell, the idea of the droids in Episode I not being hackable but still needing the central control ship; their droids are fully independent, but have extreme DRM. They have an unbreakable code that needs to be periodically verified with the mainframe or it shuts down (online-only single player games, for example). Tell my you couldn't see the Trade Federation as a future-parody of this practice :P
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Post by ishy »

Surgo wrote:Sorry, but that really strains credibility and verisimilitude. If there's a giant robot army then -- like Frank said -- why wouldn't you hack the control ship? That's a valid approach to solving that problem.
I haven't actually watched the star wars movies, so I might get this wrong. But it was my understanding that force users could feel if something went wrong from across the galaxy by 'magic'.
And your complaint is that you can't hack into giant expensive armies?

WTF
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

ishy wrote:I haven't actually watched the star wars movies, so I might get this wrong. But it was my understanding that force users could feel if something went wrong from across the galaxy by 'magic'.
And your complaint is that you can't hack into giant expensive armies?

WTF
First off, seriously? WATCH THEM.

Second off, you're saying that if people can see across the galaxy by magic it's totally OK for them not to be able to hack into a ship. Do you see why that statement is just the tiniest bit contradictory?
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