balancing magic, psychic, cyborg, power armor. RIFTS

[Gigamister]

I am currently running a Rifts game with a lot of what your examples in the party and am having no real issues. First I'd like to make a couple points that make dealing with the Rifts idea of "balance" a lot easier.
1. The classes, even with the same category (men-at-arms, adventure/scholars, magic users, psychics) are not balanced. Their not supposed to be.
2. The class categories are not combat balanced against each other, but they are role balanced. In that a Robot/Power armor pilot is built excel in combat, where as a Rogue Scholar excels at finding things of value, talking with others, and generally being the guy who doesn't blow things up. Not say they can't have some punch in combat, but they are squishy where the combat classes are the tank.
So, those points made, I will say I understand the desire to impose some kind of balance on the system, and encourage anyone who wants to try. However I have found a way of balancing the classes, its to give a balance at what the different classes excel at. This can be a problem when the mechanic and scientist blunder into and area built for the mage and MDC supernatural creature, but that's the unexpectedness of players. Still have found this approach to be the most effective. I have combat encounters where the different combat classes can shine, encounters/areas where the magic and psychic users are stars, and areas where the scientist and mechanic have the skills needed to complete the class.
When I first picked up Rifts a few years ago in a friend's game I had trouble understand how such a system could be playable, however after a few sessions, where he used similar methods I found that I loved the idea of mixing up specialties in this manner. First time around I played a Power Armor pilot, who disconnected from his humanity inside the suit. His second campaign, I played a rogue scholar on the run from the CS, whose only combat abilities was sword fighting, and rarely wore MD armor because it restricted her movement. I loved playing and both characters, and can easily point to areas where one would have failed in an encounter another succeed in.

[Mistborn]

derp

lurk moar

@the rest of the den: should we maybe make a FQA/game design 101/what we talk about when we talk at the Den so when new users sign up they don't do this thing where they blunder into points we've refuted a thousand times

[Vebyast]

Or, at the very least, a repository of good refutations that we can paste for people instead of just dismissing them as newbies.

[Prak]

Ok, instead of just ignoring Gigamister and how he is wrong, and discussing a new sticky, let me just say this:

"Role Balance" is not balance, and it is not good. If half, or even one person of your group could just as well go and play Smash Brothers or watch Baseball during certain parts of the game, the game design has failed. Everyone should be able to meaningfully contribute to all parts of the game. You do not want the fighter/glitter boy's player to go on a beer run during social encounters, and you do not want the Oratory Bard/Scholar to go stare at the fridge during combat.

[hyzmarca]

I am currently running a Rifts game with a lot of what your examples in the party and am having no real issues. First I'd like to make a couple points that make dealing with the Rifts idea of "balance" a lot easier.
1. The classes, even with the same category (men-at-arms, adventure/scholars, magic users, psychics) are not balanced. Their not supposed to be.
2. The class categories are not combat balanced against each other, but they are role balanced. In that a Robot/Power armor pilot is built excel in combat, where as a Rogue Scholar excels at finding things of value, talking with others, and generally being the guy who doesn't blow things up. Not say they can't have some punch in combat, but they are squishy where the combat classes are the tank.
So, those points made, I will say I understand the desire to impose some kind of balance on the system, and encourage anyone who wants to try. However I have found a way of balancing the classes, its to give a balance at what the different classes excel at. This can be a problem when the mechanic and scientist blunder into and area built for the mage and MDC supernatural creature, but that's the unexpectedness of players. Still have found this approach to be the most effective. I have combat encounters where the different combat classes can shine, encounters/areas where the magic and psychic users are stars, and areas where the scientist and mechanic have the skills needed to complete the class.
When I first picked up Rifts a few years ago in a friend's game I had trouble understand how such a system could be playable, however after a few sessions, where he used similar methods I found that I loved the idea of mixing up specialties in this manner. First time around I played a Power Armor pilot, who disconnected from his humanity inside the suit. His second campaign, I played a rogue scholar on the run from the CS, whose only combat abilities was sword fighting, and rarely wore MD armor because it restricted her movement. I loved playing and both characters, and can easily point to areas where one would have failed in an encounter another succeed in.

Gigamister, there is absolutely no such thing as badwrongfun. If you enjoyed it then you enjoyed it and there is nothing wrong with that.

That sort of role balance is problematic because it ultimately places balance entirely on the GM's shoulders.
Scenarios in which a character is completely useless may not be unfun if used sparingly, but game designers have to account for the worst case rather than hoping for the best, and in the worst case scenarios role balance means that a character is dead weight.

If I get to shine today and you get to shin tomorrow, that's [perfectly alright, unless you get hit by a bus this afternoon in which case you never get to shine. No one can guarantee that a game will continue long enough for every role to be useful, especially in the hands of a GM who doesn't know how to juggle roles.

Which is to say, ideally you want to keep the entire group engaged and relevant all the time. That might not always be possible, but giving up on it entirely is a design failure.

[OgreBattle]

I do enjoy RIFTS for its wacky array of everything and I see how it can work, and it has worked. That is not under dispute, I am just aiming for something else.


If anything I'm interested in "how do you make characters with similar roles more distinct?"

The cyborg with 100's of MDC and a big gun and the Juicer with 100's of MDC armor and a big gun and the Power Armor with 100's of MDC with big guns, they all generally shoot their big guns as much as their Action Points allow until the enemy is reduced to 0

So I'll talk 'bout that.


Psychic Power
I'm thinking they should play like Tome of Battle classes, with powers they set up and use

Psychic fighter types are like Warblades, they have command over which powers they have access to with and can rearrange them with a brief delay.

A more mage-like Psychic can be like the Swordsage, access to lots of powers, but recharging them slower.

Crazies are like Crusaders, the powers are in a deck and randomly drawn every round. That suits their "dangerous science" nature and well, they're Crazies.


Cyborgs n' Power Armor
a 'heat' mechanic. It works for Armored Core n' Mechwarrior, Star Wars MMO has overheating as the mechanic for their power armor dudes, it's familiar to the audience.

So a cyborg can use his internal reactor to shoot his eye lasers or jetpack around, and can overheat himself to do something dramatic but is vulnerable afterwards. Same with power armor.


Juicers can use a rage mechanic, 'adrenaline' 'juice'. The more danger they are in, the more pumped up they get.... or they could just use the heat mechanic, with the heat representing their juice and the risk of burning out.
...heck, psychic power could use this too.

[Prak]

One thing I kind of want to say in favour of RIFTS is that, other than pure point buy systems, like M&M, it might be the easiest game system to introduce ponies into, due to the TMNT Bio-e system.

==Earth Pony==
Size 6
Height to 48" at the shoulder
Weight 46-76#
Build: Medium
Bio-e: 25
Attribute Bonuses:
P.S. +2
Spd. +6
Full Speech
Hooves (1d8 Kick)
Advanced Hearing
40 SDC

==Pegasus Pony==
Size 6
Height to 48" at the shoulder
Weight 46-76#
Build: Medium
Bio-e: 5
Attribute Bonuses:
P.S. +2
Spd. +6
Full Speech
Hooves (1d8 Kick)
Advanced Hearing
40 SDC
Flight (20 BioE from wild predatory birds)

==Unicorn Pony==
Size 6
Height to 48" at the shoulder
Weight 46-76#
Build: Medium
Bio-e: 20
Attribute Bonuses:
P.S. +2
Spd. +6
Full Speech
Hooves (1d8 Kick)
Horn (1d8 Horn) (10 BioE from Rhinoceros)
Advanced Hearing
30 SDC

[OgreBattle]

One thing I kind of want to say in favour of RIFTS is that, other than pure point buy systems, like M&M, it might be the easiest game system to introduce ponies into, due to the TMNT Bio-e system.

==Earth Pony==
Size 6
Height to 48" at the shoulder
Weight 46-76#
Build: Medium
Bio-e: 25
Attribute Bonuses:
P.S. +2
Spd. +6
Full Speech
Hooves (1d8 Kick)
Advanced Hearing
40 SDC

==Pegasus Pony==
Size 6
Height to 48" at the shoulder
Weight 46-76#
Build: Medium
Bio-e: 5
Attribute Bonuses:
P.S. +2
Spd. +6
Full Speech
Hooves (1d8 Kick)
Advanced Hearing
40 SDC
Flight (20 BioE from wild predatory birds)

==Unicorn Pony==
Size 6
Height to 48" at the shoulder
Weight 46-76#
Build: Medium
Bio-e: 20
Attribute Bonuses:
P.S. +2
Spd. +6
Full Speech
Hooves (1d8 Kick)
Horn (1d8 Horn) (10 BioE from Rhinoceros)
Advanced Hearing
30 SDC

and you can fit them in the universe by saying either a rift did it, or Lonestar was working on more than just dogboys.

[Prak]

Why not give them a literal orbital friendship cannon as well?

[Red_Rob]

If anything I'm interested in "how do you make characters with similar roles more distinct?"

or they could just use the heat mechanic, with the heat representing their juice and the risk of burning out.
...heck, psychic power could use this too.

Do you want everything to be different or everything to be the same? You seem to be wavering here.

The thing with different resource systems is that they feel different in play. Having everyone use the same system means everyone will be playing to the same rhythm. The second is obviously easier to balance, whereas the first provides a more obvious distinction between character types. It's up to you really.

[Gigamister]

I wasn't disputing any attempt to actually balance the system. In fact I said that I encouraged anyone who wanted to, to try. I support anything that makes my job as the GM easier, and yes the the balance focused encounters can be a bit of an undertaking.
On the matter of using the focus encounters and certain players being exclude, I guess I could have been clearer. I encourage all my players to take part in any encounter and don't design ones where certain people just sit on the thumbs. What I mean by it was that I have found, for myself, and the GM I learned Rifts from, that creating encounters were there maybe a couple characters who shine, while the others also participate. The only time I have encounters were certain players aren't involved are when their characters are elsewhere. I will give an example from my most recent session to see if I can't clear up my point.
-(In a previous encounter the teams Rogue scientist had succumbed to a poison. Party had been split in 2 groups of 5 characters, one got hit hard exploring a Pre-Rifts chem facility, others were exploring nearby ruins, and uncovered a hospital with a fair bit of tech intact.) The party reconnected, and rescued the Scientist. problem is scientist was the doctor. The Ley Line Walker had some med skills and heal spells, the Psi-tech could power and use the old tech to assist. This would allow the to attempt to revive the scientist. The rest of the party spent the encounter fighting off two separate points of attack by creatures they had disturbed in the process of rescuing the doctor.
-In this example the encounter brings balance in allowing the Walker and Psi-tech to use their powers which were not focused on combat. While the combat oriented classes provided cover. The Mind Melter, and Wilderness scout provided assistance in combat. Their points to shine came both later and earlier respectively.
I hope this help demonstrate what the point of using encounters to balance.

[OgreBattle]

Even though RIFTS has 15 character levels in function i havent seen chara ters live long enough to climb through power tiers in a zero to hero manner. Part of that is cause you choose if you are a wizard, hobo, or dragon at chargen.

[erik]

Even though RIFTS has 15 character levels in function i havent seen chara ters live long enough to climb through power tiers in a zero to hero manner. Part of that is cause you choose if you are a wizard, hobo, or dragon at chargen.

I haven't seen campaigns live long enough for their level gain to matter. EXP gain is so pathetic compared to costs to level. Not that it really mattered. Players cared more about what loot they got rather than the EXP they got.

[Koumei]

and you can fit them in the universe by saying either a rift did it, or Lonestar was working on more than just dogboys.

He hasn't read the Lonestar book?

laughingdogboys.jpg

Lonestar is a great book, because it introduces a table any human or human mutant (includes dog boys, psi-stalkers etc) can roll on to get EVEN MOAR BONUSES. But also, it introduces catboys, monkeyboys, bearboys and batboys. Possibly others, too. And a table for specific breeds of dogboy. Sadly, the CS hates science, so they never got the bit where mongrels tend to be the best dogs for temperament and health.

As for gaining levels, the most I've advanced is, in a combat-heavy military campaign, reaching level 4.

[OgreBattle]

I remember hearing about the Lonestar alternate animals book, Lonestar do stuff like DogJuicers or Dog Crazies ("Mad Dogs" sounds goofy enough to be an actual Rifts thing)

As for gaining levels, the most I've advanced is, in a combat-heavy military campaign, reaching level 4.

Did it actually make a difference in how you played? I think some advanced martial arts get more attacks.

I forgot what rifts magic and psychic power charts were like, all I know is "a laser pistol is better than the MDC bolt" and "carpet of adhesion does everything"