WBL in AD&D 2E

[OgreBattle]

Undermountain probably inspired Wizardry, and I like those games

Not without a time machine.

if it was the other way around that'd be cool. What were the earliest adventuring modules then?

[Winnah]

Right, I pulled out my 2e stuff.

What I was calling Clockwork Automata, then Clockwork Horrors are just Automata.

Automata are in MC2, along with the updated Ring of Trobriand stats. Automata include a number of bug-like contstructs of various HD, including Scaladar, all controllable by the Rings of Trobriand. Only Trobriand and Halastar are known to possess master rings or be able to create them.

Wizshades are not impressive. All but the most minor automata are capable of smacking them around. Their aura will impede spellcasters, but the innate resistances of most automata will protect them from the majority of stuff that a Wizshade can toss out (and it should be noted that a Wizshade needs to randomly roll to determine any spell they cast, so the chance they can do anything really dangerous on a given round is low). They can still pull a disintergrate or chain lightning out of nowhere, but there are a lot of dud spells on their list.

There are a heap of random charts in the undermountain boxed set. Random Wandering Monster, Random Attracted Monster, Random Traps, Random Gate, Random Room Contents (which includes magical weapons, just lying around), random Pit Trap contents and random encounters. Halaster appear on one of the random encounter charts. Multiple times. As a Projected Image, as a Programmed Illusion and the real Halaster.

Encountering a level 29 wizard at level 1 is possible. You're far more likely to find a randomly determined +1 weapon in a trash pile, but it can happen.

[tussock]

Earliest modules are some 3rd party stuff, other than Temple of the Frog included as an example adventure in Blackmoor (1975). OD&D includes advice for underworld adventures that are pretty brutal, though treasure is common enough and good stuff, and XP was plentiful for a start.

First ones published separately by TSR were Giants and Descent series (part of later compiled GDQ, and various "return to" type things), plus Tomb of Horrors. All former tournament modules from Gencon. Short, punchy, lethal, and full of immediately useful treasure, because that's what worked for "turn-up and get as far as you can" rules in tournaments.

Mostly, they couldn't figure out what to publish because their home games were all far too large to print. Gary's game was a large part of the World of Greyhawk and a 40+ level mega-dungeon beneath Greyhawk Castle, which were kept in very rough note form to be constantly repopulated, modified, and expanded as the various players interacted with them (and reshaped them with teams of miners), and featured shifting maps and sections that were on distant planes of existence and such. Teleporting people into deep space for a joke, because real adventurers make the prisoners, baggage train, and henchmen walk up front.

Seriously, Gary expected people to survive the Tomb of Horrors by throwing NPCs into the rooms first. You're a name-level Fighter, you should be pushing expendable people around like a proper nobleman. Tucker's Kobolds is mostly a story about killing off all the NPCs nice and early, none of the PCs suffered any real harm.

[tussock]

Oh, and despite what others have said, EGG had planned 2nd edition before he was booted, to try and keep the company afloat. Story goes; the brothers Blume had hired a fuck-ton of relatives on high wages and sucked all the money out of it, while he was away doing the cartoon and trying to get a movie started.

So he hired she who must not be named to help kick people out and she sided with them because they offered her full creative control and she kicked him out instead. But 2nd edition sticks pretty close to EGG's organisational plan for it (class splatbooks and all), other than in pandering to the moral majority, and the bloated monster folders.

So 2e was made to fix the bottom line, and also make AD&D more easily expandable for the good of future bottom lines. What it tried to fix along the way was the rules that no one understood, which it largely did while making them worse. Not a bad game if you ignore most of it, especially things marked optional.

[K]

Right, I pulled out my 2e stuff.

What I was calling Clockwork Automata, then Clockwork Horrors are just Automata.

Automata are in MC2, along with the updated Ring of Trobriand stats. Automata include a number of bug-like contstructs of various HD, including Scaladar, all controllable by the Rings of Trobriand. Only Trobriand and Halastar are known to possess master rings or be able to create them.

I'm going to need a page number because even the updated stats for the Ring of Trobriand in the Trobriand's Automatons monster listing doesn't mention Halaster having the power to make Master Rings or even having a Master Ring.

The whole level entry for Trobriand's Graveyard doesn't mention it either. Or Halaster's entry. Or Trobriand's entry. Or the Scaladar entry. Or the mini-entry for Trobriand's Graveyard.

Is it in some 3e material? (The 3e version of the Master Ring mentions that people trained by Trobriand can make them.)

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but I can't find it.

Wizshades are not impressive. All but the most minor automata are capable of smacking them around. Their aura will impede spellcasters, but the innate resistances of most automata will protect them from the majority of stuff that a Wizshade can toss out (and it should be noted that a Wizshade needs to randomly roll to determine any spell they cast, so the chance they can do anything really dangerous on a given round is low). They can still pull a disintergrate or chain lightning out of nowhere, but there are a lot of dud spells on their list.

Dude, the Skulls summon up to 13 wizshades at a time and can replace them every 1d4 rounds. Wizshades also can only be harmed by spells and they fly.

The Skulls also have the spells of a 36th level Wizard, but can cast 13 spells at a time and can cast any known spell like a 3e sorcerer and they know all spells. The Skulls also can't be destroyed.

Page 22 of Skullport. (TSR11348).

That's before you even start with the level 21 Necromancer who rules Skullport or the many evil business-owners that are mid-level adventurers.

What are a bunch of HD 3 and HD 5 automatons going to do?

There are a heap of random charts in the undermountain boxed set. Random Wandering Monster, Random Attracted Monster, Random Traps, Random Gate, Random Room Contents (which includes magical weapons, just lying around), random Pit Trap contents and random encounters. Halaster appear on one of the random encounter charts. Multiple times. As a Projected Image, as a Programmed Illusion and the real Halaster.

Encountering a level 29 wizard at level 1 is possible. You're far more likely to find a randomly determined +1 weapon in a trash pile, but it can happen.

So which chart is it?

It's not the Wandering Monster or Attracted Monster charts for Level 1 on the maps. It's not on any of the white cards for traps and random room contents. It's not in any description for a Level 1 area.

Again, I'm not trying to be a dick here, but I can't find it.

[shadzar]

tsr1060 level 3: halaster is listed as an NPC of undermountain with lairs on levels 7 and 9.

i find no chart that lists him being a wandering mosnter, he jsut IS everywhere he wants to be at anytime he wants to be in undermountain is all.

running into Halaster in undermountain would be about the same chance or running into Drizzt there or Qilue. it only happens if the players request it, or the DM set it up.

[Winnah]

-I have an a4 sized card in the boxed set. It has a d100 chart that references other things like random traps and gate charts. Also the NPC party generation in the MC. That is the encounter table I am talking about.

-Wizshades take normal damage from magical weapons. The Creature vs. Creature rules gives the majority of Automata the HD required to count as magical weapons.

All automata ignore effects that effect physiology, as well as most effects that alter the mind or perceptions. Some of them can do things like absorb magic missiles to charge up their attacks.

Wizshades are puzzle monsters for spellcasters (targeting them with specific spells makes them unable to cast that level of spells), but unpredicatable spellcasting monster for everyone else. The chance that they will randomly roll something that will be effective vs. automata is not good.

The automata are just there to clear out the chaff. Things like the actual Skulls and Alhoon and whatever else are dealt with by the people controlling the automata, via standard Undermountain SOP, which is Rock to Mud on the ceiling, or some other dick move.

-I'll get back to on the Ring of Trobriand. Maybe I did read the thing about who held Master Rings in some 3e material, but I am confident I read it in a 2e book somewhere. Amongst other things, subverting control of a scaladar army is how a former DM put the kibosh on my old D&D groups plans. I still have a few books to flip though, so I'll do some light reading over the next few days.

[K]

-I have an a4 sized card in the boxed set. It has a d100 chart that references other things like random traps and gate charts. Also the NPC party generation in the MC. That is the encounter table I am talking about.

I still have no idea what you are talking about. Ruins of Undermountain has eight cards and none of them have what you are talking about. Here is a listing of what's in the box and there is no d100 encounter card, or at least no d100 card mentioned in any product listing found online or shown in the official PDF that I bought (and that even included the blank blue pages of paper that were in the box).

I also don't know what you are talking about when you mention "NPC party generation in the MC." Why would NPC party generation in the Monstrous Compendium have anything to do with meeting Halaster on Level 1 of Undermountain?

-Wizshades take normal damage from magical weapons. The Creature vs. Creature rules gives the majority of Automata the HD required to count as magical weapons.

The Wizshades fly and so can't be hit by the automatons.

The fact that there are unlimited numbers of them that replace the original 13 is just insult to injury. Thirteen random spells every turn is going to mean good spells coming up every turn.

All automata ignore effects that effect physiology, as well as most effects that alter the mind or perceptions.

Read the monster entries again.

The automatons with fixed powers and a monster entry are only immune to mind-control spells and a few other spells based on actual entry, and have some resistances like half damage vs piercing and slashing damage.

They are completely vulnerable to almost all magic. They are even vulnerable to things that don't make sense like poison because their entry doesn't say otherwise. Here is a listing I found online that seems complete (scaladar is linked inside it). Only the unnamed automatons are even immune to illusions.

2e was just like that. There wasn't stuff like types and subtypes to give blanket immunities to things yet.

The automata are just there to clear out the chaff. Things like the actual Skulls and Alhoon and whatever else are dealt with by the people controlling the automata, via standard Undermountain SOP, which is Rock to Mud on the ceiling, or some other dick move.

Skullport has more listed high-level characters than Waterdeep even before you consider the unkillable 13 Skulls and their massive shared spellcasting that is not random.

It's also part of Undermountain and under the same protections and so Rock to Mud or other digging magic on the ceiling won't work even if you could cast enough of them to collapse the amount of ceiling needed to hurt a very large town.

It sounds like your DM changed a bunch of things in order to make a fun adventure.

[codeGlaze]

He is an Ed Greenwood dick extension character. The second or third most powerful wizard in the Realms.

When Elminster was captured by Asmodeus, Mystra recruited Halaster to rescue him. Even the Prince of Hell balks at how batshit insane Halaster is.

That book sucked.

I actually enjoyed the previous Elminster books. (Take that as you will) But Elminster in Hell was a fucking chore to read.

[PoliteNewb]

After looking through some old Dungeon magazines, I have to give K an apology...a lot of those 2E adventures were VERY stingy with magic items, especially at low levels. I found some that were more generous, but they were in a minority.

Once you got up to around levels 5-8, they tended to give a lot more, and generous modules were more common.

And like Slade, people I gamed with tended to run older stuff (1E and basic modules) adapted to 2E, so there's that.

I'm still saying it's mostly K's DM being a dickhole, but I'll admit that going off officially published 2E stuff, the campaign might have been super magic-poor.

[Red_Rob]

The main problem was that there wasn't a guideline for what you 'should' be getting apart from by calculating the arcane drop rates from the treasure tables. Combine that with every other DM's favourite schtick being a 'low magic' world and you have a recipe for a shit sandwich. You really had no way to argue if your DM gave out shit treasure - the rulebooks just reinforced the idea that the DM was God and you had to suck up whatever they were willing to dish out.

I have to say in the campaigns our group ran we didn't seem to have a problem, but I can see how easily it could become an issue.

[shadzar]

-I have an a4 sized card in the boxed set. It has a d100 chart that references other things like random traps and gate charts. Also the NPC party generation in the MC. That is the encounter table I am talking about.

there is NO NPC party generator in Ruins of Undermountain MC.
there is NO d100 chart on the cards in Ruins of Undermountain. Halaster is mentioned in a section where the earth shoots forth arms as:

"As Halaster planned, the arms hold...."

on the Smash Traps card.

[Slade]

THe DMPCs had lots of magic items in 2E. It was the PCS who didn't have many (like me).
I'm serious.

I did play a Fighter Ki Jedi with a Lightsaber (that was my class feature instead of weapon Spec) and random Psionics (mage hand/ psuedo telekinesis). I had a ring of protecion +1 (that was all).
The Wizard, Cleric, Ranger also had maybe 1 magic item.

The DMPC had Frost Giant Str belt, some magic armor, weapon, etc.

Sadly I wasn't evil or I might have attempted slitting his throat in his sleep for the gear.

[hogarth]

The main problem was that there wasn't a guideline for what you 'should' be getting apart from by calculating the arcane drop rates from the treasure tables.

There's also the obvious concept that as monsters get tougher, they require weapons with higher magic bonuses to affect, so by the time you're ready to fight iron golems (for example), your party should have some +3 weapons.

[Username17]

The main problem was that there wasn't a guideline for what you 'should' be getting apart from by calculating the arcane drop rates from the treasure tables.

There's also the obvious concept that as monsters get tougher, they require weapons with higher magic bonuses to affect, so by the time you're ready to fight iron golems (for example), your party should have some +3 weapons.

Only if you're expected to win. In AD&D days, you were often expected to run away from things. The idea that there were enemies that the players literally could not hurt gave power tripping DMs tiny but rigid woodies.

-Username17

[shadzar]

Ignoring the stupidity of the idea of DMPC again, as the authors of novels jsut had their pet protagonists, and likely did run them in games to let people feel they were a part of the novel writing process, or actually were a part of the novel writing process. yes all the author/designers did things with PCs that weren't meant to function in the game the same way as the novels, and the characters then translating to the game fell flat unless bloated with abilities to make them seem MORE so they would stand out as novel characters.

Only if you're expected to win. In AD&D days, you were often expected to run away from things. The idea that there were enemies that the players literally could not hurt gave power tripping DMs tiny but rigid woodies.

-Username17

yup. the players had the choice to fight or not to fight, but the DM problem was that of the DM and present in all editions. this horseshit like it is secluded to AD&D comes again from reprobates that couldnt play it spreading propaganda and lies. 3.x had shitty DMs as well, and probably more of them since "there were more players under 3rd than any previous edition."

The Encounter is Too Difficult

The DM has accidentally pitted his player characters against a group of creatures too powerful for them, so much so that the player characters are doomed. To fix things, the DM can have the monsters flee in inexplicable panic; secretly lower their hit points; allow the player characters to hit or inflict more damage than they really should; have the monsters miss on attacks when they actually hit; have the creatures make grievous mistakes in strategy (like ignoring the thief moving in to strike from behind).

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

As a general guideline, inescapable deaths should be avoided--characters always should have some chance to escape a hopeless situation, preferably by using common sense and intelligence. This maintains the interest of the players and helps them retain their trust in the DM.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

Evasion: Sometimes all you want is for your characters to avoid, escape, or otherwise get away from whatever it is you've met.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

the idea in AD&D was not that of 4th, where the world stops and waits for the PCs to take part in it, nor of one that grows around them. the world exists and has existed before the PCs took up adventuring, and shall exist when they die or stop adventuring. this gives more life to the world than a board game of Monopoly where you know Park Place will be there when you are ready or able to handle it. you dont know what to expect when and have to figure out what to do when you get there.

welcome to RPGs.

[Winnah]

-Random encounters are on an a4 cardstock, I dont know what to say.

As for the contents, like random adventuring parties, they make sense in the context of an Undermountain campaign. Adventurers go into Undermountain. They can encounter each other.

-Wizshades can fly. In Skullport. A city packed into an underground dwarven ruin. Their flight ceiling in the city proper is negligable. Any pitched battle in those confines will see randomly generated cloudkills and incendiary clouds appear, along with lolwut castings of identify and CoP. They would just be helping you to clear out Skullport with their shitty casting mechanics.

Even the wharf and island area has a limited flight ceiling due to the elemental gates pumping fresh air into the dungeon, that explicity ragdoll anyone who attempts to fly high. If they want to hang out there while automata overrun the cramped city, good on them.

-Skulls of skullport are powerful creatures. Fighting one is the same as fighting all 13 at once. However, they have some hefty limitations considering the constraints of Undermountain.

Nothing prevents you from attempting a version of the Skyrim bucket trick on them. AMF, bucket and shovel. They can't use magic to dig themselves out. They can't teleport out. They can't even Plane Shift out or cast Ethereal Jaunt, due to the fact they can't leave Skullport. Burying them in mud by dropping the ceiling on them, is a lot easier and far less convoluted. Plus it works on a significant number of monsters in Undermountain.

They are not indestructable, but any time they are killed, they usurp control of one of the human residents of Skullport and kill them as they jack their skull. There are a limited number of humans in Skullport. Fewer, once Wizshades start throwing around random AoE's.

-Automata have implied resistances in addition listed ones. They are not alive, they don't need to breathe, shit like that. The fact that the Scaladar is immune to electricity, acid, cold and takes half damage from heat and fire, in addition immunity to other specific spells, is just gravy.

-I flipped through my books. I can't find anything else on the Ring of Trobriand. Villians Lorebook states that Halaster has an army of constructs at his disposal, but only bothers to define his Helmed Horrors, Crawling Claws and his Flying Daggers. Maybe my old DM decided one of his Wish Contingencies was "Gimmie the fucking Master Ring of Trobriand," I don't know. When I see him next, I'll ask him if he remembers that game.

[K]

-Random encounters are on an a4 cardstock, I dont know what to say.

I don't either. There is no 8.3 inch by 11.7 inch card (a4) in the Ruins of Undermountain set.

Here is a photo of the set from some guy's collection:

See how there is no card like you mentioned? I can't find a single product listing, eBay or other reseller listing, or anything that backs you up either.

Check the box. Is it a special version or something? Maybe one only sold in some non-English-speaking country?

As for the contents, like random adventuring parties, they make sense in the context of an Undermountain campaign. Adventurers go into Undermountain. They can encounter each other.

But why would they encounter Halaster? Level 29 wizards don't appear on any random NPC generators in any MC ever made.

-Wizshades can fly. In Skullport. A city packed into an underground dwarven ruin. Their flight ceiling in the city proper is negligable. Any pitched battle in those confines will see randomly generated cloudkills and incendiary clouds appear, along with lolwut castings of identify and CoP. They would just be helping you to clear out Skullport with their shitty casting mechanics.

The upper level of Skullport starts at 100 ft above the floor of the cavern and the tallest building on that level is a three-story building. Page 24 of Skullport, starting in a section called "Vertical Elevation of Skullport."

Heck, even the lowest-level houses a seven-story tower called The Tower of Seven Woes.

Plenty of room for flying.

Second, here is the entry for Wizshades. They roll a d10 for level and get to cast anything the DM wants on a 10.Then they roll d100 and cast the spell on the level list of the number roll, but if the number if higher than the number of spells in that level the DM chooses a spell.

So DMs are picking the spells most of the time, but they are supposed to use joke spells from weird supplements in order to not murder the PCs immediately.

-Skulls of skullport are powerful creatures. Fighting one is the same as fighting all 13 at once. However, they have some hefty limitations considering the constraints of Undermountain.

Nothing prevents you from attempting a version of the Skyrim bucket trick on them. AMF, bucket and shovel. They can't use magic to dig themselves out. They can't teleport out. They can't even Plane Shift out or cast Ethereal Jaunt, due to the fact they can't leave Skullport. Burying them in mud by dropping the ceiling on them, is a lot easier and far less convoluted. Plus it works on a significant number of monsters in Undermountain.

The barrier spells of Undermountain explicitly prevent you from altering, passing, or affecting the stone. Page 16 of Ruins of Undermountain.

The only listed exception is phase door and Halaster's gates which are mentioned as the only exceptions.

This means you aren't turning the ceilings into mud without using a Wish or equal magic. Ever. I'm not even sure why you'd think that you could turn the stone to mud AND the Skulls can't use magic to dig themselves free since both must be true or false at the same time.

And the Skulls fly and cast any spells they want. Simply floating 100 ft up is more than a good defense against any nonmagical tactics from within an AMF while the high-level business-owners of Skullport beat you to death for trying to destroy their homes and businesses (six statted mages with levels from 17 to 26 just to start with half being "monster breeders" of various sorts, lots of fighters and thieves, yuanti, beholders, etc).

-Automata have implied resistances in addition listed ones. They are not alive, they don't need to breathe, shit like that. The fact that the Scaladar is immune to electricity, acid, cold and takes half damage from heat and fire, in addition immunity to other specific spells, is just gravy.

Nothing in 2e had implied resistances. They had listed resistances and many didn't make sense, but that was 2e.

For example, a wight is immune to poison and paralyzation attacks, sleep, charm and hold, but a skeleton was only immune to sleep, charm, hold and fear spells. Paralyzing and poisoning skeletons was something you could do because 2e.

It was stupid, but not unclear.

[Username17]

It was stupid, but not unclear.

When people ask what the advantage of 2e AD&D over 1st edition AD&D was, this is it. AD&D was stupid and unclear. 2nd edition AD&D was usually just one or the other.

-Username17

[hogarth]

The main problem was that there wasn't a guideline for what you 'should' be getting apart from by calculating the arcane drop rates from the treasure tables.

There's also the obvious concept that as monsters get tougher, they require weapons with higher magic bonuses to affect, so by the time you're ready to fight iron golems (for example), your party should have some +3 weapons.

Only if you're expected to win. In AD&D days, you were often expected to run away from things. The idea that there were enemies that the players literally could not hurt gave power tripping DMs tiny but rigid woodies.

The same DM-boner-makers exist in 3.5, of course. But just because your DM can ignore the guidelines for making appropriate encounters to the point where your wealth-by-level is useless doesn't mean that the idea of wealth-by-level doesn't exist.

[Username17]

There's also the obvious concept that as monsters get tougher, they require weapons with higher magic bonuses to affect, so by the time you're ready to fight iron golems (for example), your party should have some +3 weapons.

Only if you're expected to win. In AD&D days, you were often expected to run away from things. The idea that there were enemies that the players literally could not hurt gave power tripping DMs tiny but rigid woodies.

The same DM-boner-makers exist in 3.5, of course. But just because your DM can ignore the guidelines for making appropriate encounters to the point where your wealth-by-level is useless doesn't mean that the idea of wealth-by-level doesn't exist.

But in 2nd edition AD&D it literally didn't exist. Challenge Rating and WBL are both creations of 3rd edition. In 2nd edition AD&D there was no guideline for what level the players "should" be when they met an Iron Golem for the first time, and no expectation that they would have the weapons needed to harm it if and when they did.

-Username17

[hogarth]

But in 2nd edition AD&D it literally didn't exist. Challenge Rating and WBL are both creations of 3rd edition. In 2nd edition AD&D there was no guideline for what level the players "should" be when they met an Iron Golem for the first time, and no expectation that they would have the weapons needed to harm it if and when they did.

I don't have the 2E monster manual. But I know that in 1E AD&D, monsters were sorted by "level" (I though X). Did they get rid of that in 2E?

[Username17]

But in 2nd edition AD&D it literally didn't exist. Challenge Rating and WBL are both creations of 3rd edition. In 2nd edition AD&D there was no guideline for what level the players "should" be when they met an Iron Golem for the first time, and no expectation that they would have the weapons needed to harm it if and when they did.

I don't have the 2E monster manual. But I know that in 1E AD&D, monsters were sorted by "level" (I though X). Did they get rid of that in 2E?

Those are "Dungeon Levels", not character levels.

-Username17

[hogarth]

But in 2nd edition AD&D it literally didn't exist. Challenge Rating and WBL are both creations of 3rd edition. In 2nd edition AD&D there was no guideline for what level the players "should" be when they met an Iron Golem for the first time, and no expectation that they would have the weapons needed to harm it if and when they did.

I don't have the 2E monster manual. But I know that in 1E AD&D, monsters were sorted by "level" (I though X). Did they get rid of that in 2E?

Those are "Dungeon Levels", not character levels.

Right, but they're still difficulty levels that you can (roughly) map to character levels, alongside the wonky "HD+special abilities+exceptional abilities" difficulty level in the 1E XP system.

[shadzar]

But in 2nd edition AD&D it literally didn't exist. Challenge Rating and WBL are both creations of 3rd edition. In 2nd edition AD&D there was no guideline for what level the players "should" be when they met an Iron Golem for the first time, and no expectation that they would have the weapons needed to harm it if and when they did.

-Username17

sure it did, it is called Hit Fice and THAC0 for the monsters. you jsut compared them to the PCs and get relative ability to hit each other and take damage. the exact things the ECL, LA, etc was built off of, just gave you a 3rd number to have to use with the monsters.

assume monsters are all fighter class, and you can easily pull their level.

18 HD, THAC0 3

iron golem is a level 18 monster.

the thing is AD&D wasnt designed around the stupid of 3rd where the dungeons only exist to be passed. they exist in random formation and allow the players control over the game by choosing to face the iron golem at level 1 or leaving to return another day.

it was up to the players whether they fought something or not, and their problem when they fought something and ended in a TPK when they werent ready.