Help me get the 'spirit' of DnD?

[Chamomile]

Chamomile: My main beef with the monster manual is just reading it in alphabetical order feels like trying to learn English by reading a dictionary (granted there's fewer monsters than English words). I love monster books though for when I want more details about a specific monster (just like looking up words in a dictionary).

Certainly. The basic setting conceits are in desperate need of a summary. But the only ones that have actually been written are setting books, and most of the setting books suck.

[Username17]

This is a very Gaming Den view and one that assumes a lot of stuff that is common here and basically in no other role playing communities.

Conquistadors were adventuer's, that is true. However, D&D tends less towards the historical version of adventuer's and more towards a "jason and the argonaughts" or "adventures of sinbad" or most honestly when actually played no matter how much the DM wants to make an LOTResque epic, they will tend to play more like Robert E. Howard or Edgar Rice Burrows pulp, where the "heroes" take actions in direct proportion to writer/player wish fullfillment. So a lot fewer heroic speaches and a lot more "badass" posturing.

This is supposed to sound like worldly wisdom, but it's actually myopic bullshit. Do you ever get out beyond a small group of friends?

Consider what the biggest adventures are for each edition:

• AD&D: Against the Giants / Descent into the Depths of the Earth. The party explores a wilderness area recently conquered by giants, stab an enormous number of bad guys, go into a previously unknown cave system filled with hostile nations, either make nicenice with the Myconids or have to stab all of them too, and stagger home under the weight of as much treasure as you can carry and/or declare yourself king of one of several areas.
• 2nd Edition AD&D: The Rod of Seven Parts. A massive sandbox of exploring uncharted lands and those recently conquered by the Forces of Chaos (capitalized!) with the over-all quest to put together the Rod of Seven Parts and defeat the Queen of the Spyder Fiends. Along the way you make nicenice with some of the locals and stab a whole lot people in the face. At the end you can stagger home under the weight of as much treasure as you can carry and/or declare yourself king of one or more of the liberated and/or conquered regions.
• 3rd Edition D&D: The Sunless Citadel. A modest adventure spanning just a few levels where you explore a lost undergound fortress now home to two nations of people. You can pick sides and make nicenice with some of the locals or just stab everyone in the face. At the end you can declare ownership of the fort or take your treasure home in a santa sack.
• 3.5 D&D: Red Hand of Doom. A military campaign across a hostile wilderness. The heroes can make nicenice with the Elves and have options on how to handle the the lichking of Thundara. The players explore the lands, make alliances, stab a whole lot of people in the face, get a bunch of treasure and can declare themselves kings of the region at the end.

The truth is that the flagship adventures for every edition of the game have always been Cortez stuff. Sometimes you're attacking the evil empire, sometimes the evil empire is attacking you, but you're always exploring an inhabited but uncharted land, looking to best the evil nations for gold and land. And it's not surprising that the adventures are like this, for fuck's sake the actual chronicle of a series of D&D games strung together is called a Campaign. Which of course, literally and specifically means a protracted goal-oriented prosecution of a war. That is not an accident.

The only thing which has ever competed against that is the "Tournament Module." Those are things like the Tomb of Horrors, which are haunted house stories. They are supposed to be one-shots, and the people who play in them are supposed to die in large numbers in weird and unexpected ways.

Edit: And if we include Pathfinder as an edition of D&D, which we probably should, the highest rated adventure path is Kingmaker, which as strongly backs up my point as anything.

-Username17

[Chamomile]

Kingmaker is certainly the only PF adventure path I have ever seen people trying to recruit for on various TTRPG-friendly forums I frequent, and I've seen that one advertised multiple times. The mechanics of every edition I am familiar with revolve principally around combat first, with loot and exploration a close second. Now honestly I don't really like how narrow that focus is, and certainly as a GM you are capable of running a different story, but that's what the mechanics lend themselves to, that is what is most popular, and that's what people think of when they think of D&D.

[tussock]

Appendix N is terribly out of date now, but it's where D&D came from.

Three Hearts and Three Lions. The Dying Earth. Fafhrd & Gray Mouser. Jack of Shadows. Swords Against Darkness. Stormbringer. The Shadow People. The Hobbit. Works of de Camp, Burroughs, Lovecraft, and many others.

Basically, anyone from ordinary farmboys to superhuman beings from other worlds and everyone between go exploring in dark places and find deadly traps, evil monsters beyond comprehension, and treasures too great to carry. There is much trickery, fast-talking, and knot-cutting attempted along the way. Many do not return, but those who do often long to seek darker places still, until they finally venture too deep and the inevitable befalls them.

[shadzar]

D&D is not a video game, and it shouldn't be treated like one. Putting people in the mind set that every NPC you meat meet is just getting loaded in when they come into site is bad for the game.

The problem is that is what they think people want still, just MMO mobs to fight. the player entitlement means that the players are the focus and the world exists only for and when the players are in frame of the scene. it is a part of 4th that will still exist in 5e.

Consider what the biggest adventures are for each edition:

How about consider what you have been told time and again like many others. these adventures you pick out to try to claim IS D&D, is nothing more than a quick thing thrown together to sell an adventure to people that don't have time to make one of their own. it is NOT an example of the ONEWAY to play D&D for any of them.

the ONLY "spirit of D&D" they can represent is that you can do things in ANY way you want with D&D, not that they must be done in the way of any adventure you ever want to hold up as an example. Just as there is no ONE seting, but many, thus to understand the "spirit of D&D" you ahve to understand what makes them ALL D&D at the same time. something that is lost on you Frank, as well as WotC.

[ACOS]

How about consider what you have been told time and again like many others. these adventures you pick out to try to claim IS D&D, is nothing more than a quick thing thrown together to sell an adventure to people that don't have time to make one of their own. it is NOT an example of the ONEWAY to play D&D for any of them.

The thing is, these are adventures that are designed with A particular vision of the game in mind. And this vision is, in fact, the way that they expect - and even want - you to play.
Sure, you can do whatever you want with the game; but that in no way negates the fact that the authors do indeed have an intended onetrueway.

[Username17]

The thing is, these are adventures that are designed with A particular vision of the game in mind. And this vision is, in fact, the way that they expect - and even want - you to play.
Sure, you can do whatever you want with the game; but that in no way negates the fact that the authors do indeed have an intended onetrueway.

Basically this. Also, different adventures were written by different people and presented with different visions. These have been subjected to the marketplace of ideas, and it turns out that there are in fact visions of the way of the game which have greater and lesser resonance with the fan base. And consistently, over half a dozen editions and forty years of this game, the Cortez / John Carter of Mars adventures have scored much more highly with the fans than anything and everything else.

The marketplace of ideas doesn't always work, but in this instance it actually does. And it has given us our answer. And that answer is:

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idr9eSNnA9Oo4aLitFOCZkHfZeShsSMbojaZt5oRi5VxYYObth9z0Tq2QpBeJxzKVnm5uI2i0n8uhRxoEExa+USZMakxYa6XSCpULn5nkuP4FcyqBmG+ybVpAHeE41qHDKDvJjaNfOVpMLVADRymfc/qsZgJD2NDLlwN4sIlw6yeae8VrllBxHxGw53MW9FDI7TTKw46Rnu13FWnFlrnF7WWbEAAH4rRczPKRF1RgqArGafi1BbcPECZIFoN99kacK1zM1RoIAsC0E9YPlP4EPQ4c5n8yg1wbAc0F/jZrlI8/wA1QSjpS9NDbTIUuGO71rHgtBdckiwJj3sfNfTKVNrWNayzQAGgaRssnwzBfxFRlevFQMMuaQCTIgzFgASDEajZbhmCaLDTaNL3t0WP+TXEymNsVYyvkY52UuhpOUbwJhZPh3D/AOIfnDshzeINAhoOgAFoJX0AYEEydBt+6znaDhFJj3VKNRtKqfip/wBLwdi0HwzbofmpYXXCr/sW9o+zbW021Kcy2zpJMh299IPK1+ih2R46MI+Ya8E3BMa8jpK7i+Lnue6qA+KJdcRewFjn0n9dUswmK/h6jtXQfedJFx9xotUYycdZCSSvh9ArdochFZ7IDrBp1gmRqNCZjz6rDcbq062JdUpDuQ6LTYHciNPJEf6uKj3tqPDQ9pknbKQ6G7TaElNdjj4JIGpOh8lo/jxqVkM16hJpkSCZG1hvuDur6NLwyDbccj+nku4MMBBIOXkbfNX9yHm3w8jc/otrMqYZw3BlzXGC1rRme4TYbkiflN0w4fwCg5hc/uGkwXBxL3QRcgyNT4rkeRXKGNGGwmUzFdzw7nDQBHu4pHW/jGtY3DVCWAtcWsgk5HgtLhGbTICAYOXrCzU5WyqaRrcBUbQqOJLG0/E5rWwWuadCZsSR9FXV4i0VT3fhaBIYIgBxJOUciZKwPEm1qYY2pLHHO4MJPga8hzRBuNTrcQieCcQguzyS4AAzpG30TqHLJyfWmfV+C4u56tP7LF8Qqhteq5rRmDj4nAvLf/rZpPX5ozhPFW0mFziTAMc77BWYmm0YWpUI/mVCMo3BJ/RL6wLi6ZTivFTnDgTMQczpcY0JA8LfIaKVPtLVyzJPOI+yqp8La95L/CwaxYknRrfPnyC2nA+yLA3OwAAi95BnmHSD7KidOkI4/ZgcbxmrUs6XkmwiT0AgSmnZzAPnO9r2yCNIAHnqCtziuC06bg40mOtEhoB9hAPr8ki4tRqZu8peIQNIkR0PXkunktUGEEugmJxXdh1Or4s0lrou6RBaduSh2YwjH53Oc4NBkA/DDTIBm/zS6tiH1JbVNuojfaBKe4So3uHUwcrBd7xsGXa3zMCf3UnY1ot4m9slgeAQ20nTf1uTolfDHuD3NdlBAuZ8JHxEiLae0AKWJw7KtIvEjLp13k+pS/A2IzAwbRoDHVFI6zU4Tu6rczQGjS5Lv1IXktocNeBNFwAM/wBRGnI7heSOhlYkrODQXch78glTnOJL9ft5IniuLGQAamJ6R95SgYyAQLyrQiJIvyQR1RWHwTSSXuyNImYk+QHmgMMZe3MYAN41HrKa/wDbqEDxUyRY6iRAIPn9E7TFVDHg1VmWwl7bSdTOhCVcS4iatUwYYwwOp3KvxYFNjnN3AA5yevlKUYMjLGpmVnlBJmjH4NuNYsCmGzeJPsgezvGO4rHOf5Z5RygbGLWUDgzULi6cjRmeeQF8o6mI9UE7h9dxdUZQeGOJIAaSBmMgC1x5IxiqaYzk7NiO0dPM/u6ZBdGUhwgR8Ti06zp6b3Wg7M8Vdfwg0b/1S9rv6fCBEG8329/k2HL6VUhwLXA3BH1C0XCeIuDwWOibOGkgqWTGqoeLZ9J4n2jYxpDbvMxMQPbXy91gMVinGrm1e47ukz15aoriWJcHDa2o3B6pTPiMaymw4tFfySyTt0x02nTqQHmIOvXmExx1SkGiQ3LEZvDM6H7EeSx9WoZvZNOFcaDBleczDsb/AOVncH8m5SQHxUgVIykNgEDSx0J+vqq6FRs2kdDH1Wqx3DqeIojuy3MxvhjSB/SRsPosocOQSCIIMEbjnK24Zpxo8/PBqTf2NqAzABogjXdX4fh1R9RracOdsA1wPvyQFGs4HmYAAA/Rbb/UP4PCfDFao0OvfwyLRy1+SbJk089ZKEbA+0fDqLadNhIcRIN5BcSQ5xjllMBY9mGeGPrMPgpva2c0OlwJtzsL+YU+J8edUdly9GtAPUgAebitHguEgcOqh1yCHDq/eOYAICnG8cVt8so/2fDOMxTXNcHGS6MxME20AtYdAvYHhAqVS1rrQSXRpAmI3J0Q9PAOFXIYEk/RHfw1RgJaRFpiZVpcEXek6X8tzS45wLiNP8hPcHxUuHeObAaCGDzF3fYLPtxIyR7BD1seQ0DZDVAbbDsW8OpODNWuDwNyBIP1Tjs92nblAc9wkxG17LM8JxeWs1zvhuD5OEE/OfReq0Dh69xv6GTZw8xB910faOkrib3HYl7KWc+JnKNAl/CMcKjX3hrXTE6AifsjMFiTVogayIPK4IWN4bLZDxqRI6DSQOq6cVqLjfRrjuKvrkspMOTctHicOpiw6f4QmJqva3unS1pA1GwNo5BPeCUxSa7KQWkzcj5HfXQhV9qazX02ZIMu1Iu0gaTtP2Utq4i2l9ZTwIOYMzgXNuIM5b6WHqquOP8AhDQMvxDmIsR81WzEPYwZmwCLHWfbRHYLhmdmaqDc+EaW/dI3TthStUgLhtKrUnJEDmYC6u4GuwAt8TYJuLyNvDaF5PQNkjF4thIkqgMtyR9VhNzpC63D7rYqMjbQNh8EXAGecdT15J1h25mgkbfTn1CqY8MZcgeaBxPFZBa02HLeNSenRTnKisE5FnEH97DWmwOouTtIVGGZ48rASRY+mpcdhKG4dQrVaktMNafigQJ/NFpGvYG5KZj/AMrS4/1EnUbqNNvpo2S4gepxFjWCmxoeBdxdoTebb3vfomuC7Sgj+Y2DsW2B6JO/AGLEdR6wqRhoK5qLFV/JX2if/E1c8BhAgEamNM0JQS9pE2cNDs4J2+j6IPihbky6u1EbLnVDRtMvwfE+8aGOEOvHXmLoijTSrCUnvLGnQGSeUC4T7ddFUdk6Vvog2Ikfm6pdwxovmgdQD9wiiEu4pUIgbR9/2Qk7Ox3dBmHxUVIY4hpEG+x2nf8AZPOK0mvDa7RrDXxzHwn7eyzGH4e6pTkGCNOR8/dF8ExtQd5ScJH9TSR6EdeSh2L2RpdTWrHPB8KH16bdAXCfIXdp0BR/bLE56xOzZAvPUR6R7IfgdENxDJdDQdeY/ff1VnaEjLJ3dM2gzJlGL2ypmeS1gzMcPP8AOad5N/Qrbcaw7qeGpNHIOnrYn2n5LJ4amA+Ry+wWv4vjRVZSdEZmRHItjN9lbNKpxRLGrg2ZGk+a8uubx5kf5TBr7oCvhi2oDYgH7ym7cNuuzvVobCtkSxPC6Iw3evaQ4uIlpAGlrRzWaNEESE24/XcabaY0Ek9Uk7w6ekIYVKm5By0mkizDYN1R+VsdTsAm3GcLkwrZdmez4SbWtbyH3VeB4VWa3OCW75dzHMaD1Q2KqOrVBmMi9myRa1gDz906e0uPwXij1Dfs9xxohpMW/wAJfi6ZznkCRbopYLAzYtcB4pExB/osRpzhEU8G6/wn19E8pJ+E4rX08OIZQBAiLnJf/l++yk7ibXNc0NOlrj0N43uhcThcsTa97yOgtootwwOjg09ZP0Ck6L3Z7CYiYzCROiKfxGoHnLUdB0EyB6QoYLBSDME8oJjrIRP8DmLYaNCInXSLjQ6+yVtWckzzMNmGbMCSST4Tab7G3svKT6GkgtIEWNj915BTBSETGj0i0qylTE6eQSShjy0Xvy6KbuOkm7sobE5bFa+0Z5QV8AuMS7EgGzZHSBvI/NFMYAtOocAYMEb3aZOoIhD1KjH1HuiWmwmSeQdHmETTbUfEi1yAdZPOdxr6paLR4P8AhFUd0Moi5lTxFEAjJm3zA6eiowmRjcpLx1ETrpEwiu9aD4X5h1EH2UXa8Ckk7YK+mXTcg/IeS8zDeaZ06bTopuoKe7NH40JOKuLaRix0B3ukvC8OM0lxEkXN5Bm8Hy8ytdXwgeCHXH581j2ZiCW5i3UTAFiQJ5qsHaJSjQ+yZHtynMHk2IveLgjlujXUiFHA8OywSTNyZ2nQDayY90lckvA6t+i8s9Ur4q3NVa0b5R7rRGgLBJcCDUxTXEbm3kLfRK2h4xdjnD4bK0N5IPjGAIb3rB42X827gjcb+6dZFJvW/NStllFFPCKoq0mzDSRYtH1HPfqrX4ik8OpZm5nEhgM2A+GdrmfeUjxLHYVxdTl1PXLu2eX9wEeYt5o7h7KVR/ftMyJjk42LvzdPH9esjkjv4TweFDRaesmbjXoinF3dFtzGkXibWHPS4U6FAAW0N/8ACupyDISSduxlDlGfxFSW5tQIJEa/5R9Hg9RrQRUymZyico57wfKLpbjccWyx9MiWuaZ0MkEERrEHoZ2TDh4rOc2czWWGYiAQOh3P6+mrI243wzQ1i6Ye+g1wAfHUke5G/olzGsY892y397tf28gucQxmWZMjQRoP3SXE8ZsQNT6lZP2mqj4PP22aB2NBN3Fw/ti3T/KKfiajWeEMpt5HUz0/ZZKpjXm7oAEafquVeMPcYn89UVhlXDt4J9NBiMe0NAccsam8FWYTKWuy1R5aa8naT+iS4iqXMio8Doz9T9Ag6Dmg2LoHXUeWyrixOvegyZUxlxKr3bXSbHnqNbdf3QXCOJZHZagLmkAgzDmTuNiOnWysr18w2NtCgH+UHf1WrTZdMykl4aptYC7XuHUNv6kFcZWdMhwJ6gXSPhmNyiH6TE7t5eYKaNaszw16O5kq1SpzgfJeVtMjQ+i8u1SJvpgzVIOykyiKpgAT6TfQBUDdFUMPTcLmDzButL8NC6dxtENc1gMhpE+hv9PmnWDFQ7Ag8wfoLf4Satw+8sc4xzi/PRHcNxbh8TiNtdfdJfKQXHtsd4WqIdnhhAvAJn0iV15ouABIH9pFj9NPNAVz3gs7xNmPXYoT+NE5ajYIN4MT5yFNKyb4Mn4gMIjWRJnbyRxx7Yv9r+mqS1cSKkmzYNr+wuq6WLc22sey6r4PGeo0xfEmim6D4osLhZzDsAi0wQbmI5+4n3TajQz2LgJ3gn6bIXG4buiQSLGJ2PknjGuHPLZoqPEGOgg67bjp5q52JGl/ZZPC1CB4XeiZ4WkCQ17nEcmydeSR44ob8smOmPk2BJGwufbVKeC4Zzaue0QZ6a68kbiuGUm/BVex8SA6etiItZBU8QGuuM3qPkTCRRXwH8zXqHtDEsJvmmYsB9ZsEdSbTcS0Eg9Qb+U6rOU8Ww3u0jS0z68/VMMHjC5mU1XNEyAAJBnWZullAl+Z/Ydj+HOZJfTLmtnxATE6y3XTlKz3dMpuzYd4LT8TZsCSQRP9II2PJaKvxmoyBULngEhrh/ULST10/ClPEMU15IdRJbF5BzjS4Iuli34VWW/RhgcSKjBcCBt0sr2jkkFAtpwKT5EzD9rc7+x5prU4kCIOUW0G3ruklxmhTtWgh2LDDu4zGUJbxPF1dYflEw0A/MgJdi+LhvwA5zqZgfr80PiMS8CTVObkNAmUKZB/t6Ro1DVd/MBaxuo0npP3Ucc+kPgY0dUPiMY50ZnT9fXmhHG/RWjE5snXxBd5DRC0hkOZ1+TVPP1t81RjcUJAY0fUnzO60RiZpehHeuqHwgk6wJt5qMk6G6+g8I4e2lRaGsjMAXW8RJG51WK4rh/5zi3TMR+6ZSTA4gwqu/dWNfN9FWXKbDET8NpT2TZ1tVW0eKuY4O2t/wDE8wRshsSyHQDIOiEL9ud0eMaJuMPjqdTQiYkg2+tj6LyxWHxUWK8k/GGhdnJVjHnkotYrGtXMdNhFOu4eSu/iT5jcbFDNdCi597aJaHUmGUcYRurK9QO8SXxuvPr7D1Xa9sVy4Wd7yV9F06m30QTXKxj5MaJmBfY9w/ECPCCI0ED6oOrOeSc35yQpdluCCqxXJ1KVRGYdU4o6Im2kIzh+PcB4Sc14102SZpujWY+B4bLnGxbDMU+rJc6STck6/NUkgfEY6BUjiLuk+QXauLL/AIiPYfou1JythNLEsHwl3rEexRdLEyIzW5nX3mEmIjSfKFxlaLafdBwF0THdZ7p8M9IJPsqDiqk6unnqR+ypw+MYwSMxPU29kQe0dV1hl88rZHkVJwd8RWKpFBxHkdf8qmri5/u912vLphptuIvPQfZCF8KkYphbaJvrT1UHVOa93rivMxR0+ybVHJsjmVtN4FjcH5dQutynURyI+64ykSYStDJkHYYE6yOY/Rabh+AwdMtdZ7hfMZgeQjVK8LgGmoWET4QZuIveF6nQYx5pvAfN2u+x9kG74ckkPuKcfLmltM+E/wBX5os252/L5lRr08hls5duhUWuzGOh90Ul8AbKG65ipsrTIO6hnGW+6jFj+aqpKjtR3gvq0lCuvdXNMxO9ih6jYkIhREarqiAT1XkQnnNXYXXlRzpUjmzq7mG6pL1GCuo7p19SVxgXgFJoTHHWrjHrsKkgygEK71RFRV5oXFxxcypdWhyHaeSta5cAsLl5riq4kqxjUQBFHFx18/Kyvp4kOEET0380H3S42xXARZiaeU2MhUtqqc6rgYuGuixmKIXZzeaq7tdBISuP0FS+yQqRb3UHOuiqdMPgRDue2/7LmL4a6nqlTXgWqKhh3ZS/YRProisJjvFJGuvP0U6OLmkKR0LgJ5CZj3hE8XwTGupBoy5gRprGUA/NdV+gsspVxL3TJMAeQE/UoPGuILXeYj7KttGoNPyERTpGqw/3C5Hluu1Ayl9cEdeRVLTAk7/bki8bhg2NJVD8S0CGtvz19k6SQj6BvdaOSnUaQyDqfwLuGeAS5wmNBzO0qFRxe7z1RCQc3wi0qLhmE+iIdRjfRcpi/pf9VwqZSyl9F5G0sOXH0XkRrP/Z[/img]
Fight Girallon, unite the tribes, defeat the army of evil, get a bunch of treasure, become king.

Seriously: Adventurer. Conqueror. King. In that order.

-Username17

[shadzar]

How about consider what you have been told time and again like many others. these adventures you pick out to try to claim IS D&D, is nothing more than a quick thing thrown together to sell an adventure to people that don't have time to make one of their own. it is NOT an example of the ONEWAY to play D&D for any of them.

The thing is, these are adventures that are designed with A particular vision of the game in mind. And this vision is, in fact, the way that they expect - and even want - you to play.
Sure, you can do whatever you want with the game; but that in no way negates the fact that the authors do indeed have an intended onetrueway.

Except that they don't, thus why the rules are never complete. There is no ONE person that decides ONETRUWAY D&D. Gary played a way different than OD&D, and 1e. he played his own way. He shared some of his way in things like Expidition to Barrier Peaks and other places. There was no single person with a single vision of how to play, what the world should be like, etc. BD&D was made at the same time as AD&D, and we only have evidence that AD&D was in part made to oust Arneson legally from royalties.

it doesn't mean Gary thought his way was better than Arneson, Mentzer or whatever, he just wanted the rights to the game.

this goes back to the DragonMag comment Gary made about "playing AD&D as written or you aren't playing AD&D at all!" This was in answer to a question about tournaments and the RPGA.

the RPGA was not the place the spirit of D&D resided because not every player had access to event and such, so the spirit lies in the home game, which there are 10^10^10^10^10^10 variations and ways to play D&D, and all of them are valid so long as they stick to the spirit which is you throw some magic into medieval history and myth and become a character in that world and decide how you would do things if you lived then. (medieval can be changed and not only Europe and England.)

like Gary said, it is like cops and robbers, but with more you can do and less arguing about who shot first.

[hogarth]

Seriously: Adventurer. Conqueror. King. In that order.

All of the adventures you described above go: Adventurer. Conqueror. The End. (with possible kingship during the closing credits)

And I'm not even sure what the difference is between Adventurer and Conqueror in terms of the adventures you described above. An Adventurer kills hill giants and a Conqueror...kills hill giant chieftains? That really just sounds like one thing: Monster Slayer.

It's certainly been my experience that most modules (even adventure paths) go: Slay Monsters. The End.

[ACOS]

"Become an adventurer! Travel to exotic foreign lands, meet interesting people, and kill them!"

[shadzar]

Seriously: Adventurer. Conqueror. King. In that order.

All of the adventures you described above go: Adventurer.

It's certainly been my experience that most modules (even adventure paths) go: Slay Monsters. The End.

Frank jsut doesn't understand adventure modules/paths. He thinks they are the root of the game and how you are supposed to play the game.

I cut your post to make it more correct: Adventurer. The End. That is D&D. the end comes when you are tired of playing this adventurer, either through the game being over cause everyone is taking a break, you take a break, or you make a new character for some reason and continue on with the same campaign.

adventures exist to sell a product to people who don't have time to make adventurers themselves. that is all they show, that some people want to buy or don't have time to make their own and NEED to buy adventures that are already made.

[kzt]

No, it's that Frank thinks that you can determine what the writer/designer of a game thinks is a "normal" adventure for his game based on the adventures that the writer/designer creates. I think he is right. This is particularly true when pretty much anyone who has played the game knows about that module series and most of them remember it as being generally fun.

[shadzar]

No, it's that Frank thinks that you can determine what the writer/designer of a game thinks is a "normal" adventure for his game based on the adventures that the writer/designer creates. I think he is right. This is particularly true when pretty much anyone who has played the game knows about that module series and most of them remember it as being generally fun.

Excepot again it is a failing of understanding. Not evry game designer jsut wants to make ONE game. Gary made all kinds of crazy shit to try new things. In a way that DOES fit the profile of highlighting the game in that it could do many things, but none of the adventures he wrote was right or wrong, or the only way.

Not everyone is James Wyatt thinking HE and ONLY HE knows what fun is for everyone.

ANY D&D that moves to ONETRUEWAY to have an adventure is totally fucked and doomed before it heads to the printer. That was NEVER the purpose of D&D, and if that is what WotC thinks the purpose is, then they have always failed to understand it even with Richard at the helm.

D&D is NOT MtG. D&D is what you do with it at home, not what Renton and the Wizards in their Ivory Tower on the Coast say you have to do with it.

[Cyberzombie]

All of the adventures you described above go: Adventurer. Conqueror. The End. (with possible kingship during the closing credits)

And I'm not even sure what the difference is between Adventurer and Conqueror in terms of the adventures you described above. An Adventurer kills hill giants and a Conqueror...kills hill giant chieftains? That really just sounds like one thing: Monster Slayer.

It's certainly been my experience that most modules (even adventure paths) go: Slay Monsters. The End.

The kingship thing has never worked in D&D. There haven't been any coherent rules to make it work, and the combat system grinds to a ridiculously slow halt if you put too many miniatures on the board. Also, armies basically suck at that level anyway, so your extra guys are there to block squares and maybe soak hits.

And the fact that armies both can't be handled and don't matter essentially make the kingdom-building game pointless. There's no point in raising the tech level of your kingdom or building a new keep or guard barracks. None of that stuff ultimately matters.

Pretty much D&D is about monster slaying and monster slaying alone. The only real question is whether your quests are going to have fail/timed conditions or are going to be an unchanging dungeon.

[tussock]

D&D Companion Set, Mentzer era. Rulership, baronies, taxes and tithes up the ladder, large-scale event generator, rebellions, keeping the peace, mass combat rules that abstract out your high level invincibility to where you always survive the battles and give a big bonus to your army but maybe the orcs win anyway, roll d% and check how much territory changes hands.

Like, it's clunky, because 1983 and they weren't really playtesting, but it's totally there and it works. Remember if they have a bunch of lycanthropes, you really want to dish out the silver daggers, which will mean raising taxes, which means rebellions, but probably not as bad as losing to the monsters.

[shadzar]

Pretty much D&D is about monster slaying and monster slaying alone. The only real question is whether your quests are going to have fail/timed conditions or are going to be an unchanging dungeon.

Only if you are Gygax or Wyatt, many people like Arneson disagreed and thus why there exists Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Planescape, Dark Sun, and all the rest. Also why Gary bought Forgotten Realms the game and had it turned into a setting, because he knew not everyone wanted to play exactly like him and needed something quick to churn out things for to show something other than murder hobo.

[CCarter]

Okay, so I think I'm getting the hang of the mechanics of third edition DnD and derivatives, but I've realized I don't know much about the stuff most DnD worlds usually involve, e.g. afterlives, planes, fiends, the usual monsters, etc (yeah, I know that stuff isn't necessary for a DnD setting, but I'd like to know the default assumptions players and DMs have).

I'd add "Manual of the Planes" to the basic list of PHB, DMG, MM. Or Planescape for 2E, if you can find it. Three of those things listed (afterlives, planes, fiends") are tied together since the assumption is that the souls of dead humanoids move off to an outer plane matching their alignment (e.g. LE = Nine Hells of Baator, LG = Seven Heavens, CG=Asgard, CE = The Abyss, etc.) where they either farm corn for eternity or become starting out fiends/ angels/ whatever. The fiends and things themselves are described in the Monster Manuals, either because at high levels you can travel to the planes, kill dead people, and take their stuff, or because demons and things visit the Prime Material Plane on occasion.

[shadzar]

i would disagree. the majority of the game space happens on one plane. the spirit is to have an environment to play. MotP and Planescape is just "what if we threw every fucked up idea into one setting!"

The fact that Planescape can exist is more in the spirit of D&D, than what is in it.

[Cyberzombie]

D&D Companion Set, Mentzer era. Rulership, baronies, taxes and tithes up the ladder, large-scale event generator, rebellions, keeping the peace, mass combat rules that abstract out your high level invincibility to where you always survive the battles and give a big bonus to your army but maybe the orcs win anyway, roll d% and check how much territory changes hands.

Like, it's clunky, because 1983 and they weren't really playtesting, but it's totally there and it works. Remember if they have a bunch of lycanthropes, you really want to dish out the silver daggers, which will mean raising taxes, which means rebellions, but probably not as bad as losing to the monsters.

I pretty much ignored those rules because they were published once and basically never used again. AD&D 1E-4E (generally considered to be the core "D&D"), never even bothered to bring them up again, so it was basically concluded by designers that they were a dumb idea nobody really cared about.

Because ultimately you lost to the orcs, and just said "Well screw it, I'll just kill them personally" and then you stopped caring about leading armies. It's always been the D&D problem where kingdoms just don't matter.

Pretty much D&D is about monster slaying and monster slaying alone. The only real question is whether your quests are going to have fail/timed conditions or are going to be an unchanging dungeon.

Only if you are Gygax or Wyatt, many people like Arneson disagreed and thus why there exists Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Planescape, Dark Sun, and all the rest. Also why Gary bought Forgotten Realms the game and had it turned into a setting, because he knew not everyone wanted to play exactly like him and needed something quick to churn out things for to show something other than murder hobo.

Different campaign worlds are just different flavors of monster slaying. Read a forgotten realms module compared to a Dragonlance module or a Dark Sun module. Functionally, you go places, kill monsters and take their loot. Sure the flavor is different, in much the same way that Doom, Halo and Call of Duty all have different flavors, but they're all a very similar game type.

[hogarth]

D&D Companion Set, Mentzer era. Rulership, baronies, taxes and tithes up the ladder, large-scale event generator, rebellions, keeping the peace, mass combat rules that abstract out your high level invincibility to where you always survive the battles and give a big bonus to your army but maybe the orcs win anyway, roll d% and check how much territory changes hands.

That's great, but the percentage of D&D modules that incorporate those rules is basically zero.

[shadzar]

Pretty much D&D is about monster slaying and monster slaying alone. The only real question is whether your quests are going to have fail/timed conditions or are going to be an unchanging dungeon.

Only if you are Gygax or Wyatt, many people like Arneson disagreed and thus why there exists Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Planescape, Dark Sun, and all the rest. Also why Gary bought Forgotten Realms the game and had it turned into a setting, because he knew not everyone wanted to play exactly like him and needed something quick to churn out things for to show something other than murder hobo.

Different campaign worlds are just different flavors of monster slaying. Read a forgotten realms module compared to a Dragonlance module or a Dark Sun module. Functionally, you go places, kill monsters and take their loot. Sure the flavor is different, in much the same way that Doom, Halo and Call of Duty all have different flavors, but they're all a very similar game type.

You, Frank, James Wyatt, Mike MEarls are all fuckign styupid for this reason. How about STOP reading the fuckign shitty published adventures and settings, and read the PHB, DMG, and MM. pay close attention to the section of what is D&D. Here I will give some from 2nd edition so people can grok the spiirt when their head's aren't up their asses about the mechanics.

The Goal

Another major difference between role-playing games and other games is the ultimate goal. Everyone assumes that a game must have a beginning and an end and that the end comes when someone wins. That doesn't apply to role-playing because no one "wins" in a role-playing game. The point of playing is not to win but to have fun and to socialize.
An adventure usually has a goal of some sort: protect the villagers from the monsters; rescue the lost princess; explore the ancient ruins. Typically, this goal can be attained in a reasonable playing time: four to eight hours is standard. This might require the players to get together for one, two, or even three playing sessions to reach their goal and complete the adventure.

But the game doesn't end when an adventure is finished. The same characters can go on to new adventures. Such a series of adventures is called a campaign.
Remember, the point of an adventure is not to win but to have fun while working toward a common goal. But the length of any particular adventure need not impose an artificial limit on the length of the game. The AD&D game embraces more than enough adventure to keep a group of characters occupied for years.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

The Real Basics

This is the heart of role-playing. The player adopts the role of a character and then guides that character through an adventure. The player makes decisions, interacts with other characters and players, and, essentially, "pretends" to be his character during the course of the game. That doesn't mean that the player must jump up and down, dash around, and act like his character. It means that whenever the character is called on to do something or make a decision, the player pretends that he is in that situation and chooses an appropriate course of action.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

the spirit of D&D is in bold in this last section here.. dont get lost unable to see the trees for the forest that has been wasted on adventure modules.

YOU want to kill shit and take its stuff, Wyatt, then that is all you see of D&D and you will see it as nothing else. You want to tell a story, then you tell a story. the thing is D&D is what YOU make of it. WotC can never make a game for YOU or anyone else,. they aren't making your perfect computer desk/station. They are just giving you the tools they think you need: screwdriver, drill, router, biscuits, glue. some wood. You want an industrial one then you have to get those tools for yourself like wrenches steel tubing, glass, etc. thus why D&D was created and then other genre created to cover the other things.

D&D is just a build-your-own-adventure kit, like EVERY other RPG. it just has its own nuances that have been abused in the interest of profit from the lowest common denominator and milking the video game players.

[radthemad4]

D&D Companion Set, Mentzer era. Rulership, baronies, taxes and tithes up the ladder, large-scale event generator, rebellions, keeping the peace, mass combat rules that abstract out your high level invincibility to where you always survive the battles and give a big bonus to your army but maybe the orcs win anyway, roll d% and check how much territory changes hands.

Like, it's clunky, because 1983 and they weren't really playtesting, but it's totally there and it works. Remember if they have a bunch of lycanthropes, you really want to dish out the silver daggers, which will mean raising taxes, which means rebellions, but probably not as bad as losing to the monsters.

While I'll probably MTP this stuff if it comes up, having some rules as a guideline could help. I'll take a look.

I'd add "Manual of the Planes" to the basic list of PHB, DMG, MM. Or Planescape for 2E, if you can find it. Three of those things listed (afterlives, planes, fiends") are tied together since the assumption is that the souls of dead humanoids move off to an outer plane matching their alignment (e.g. LE = Nine Hells of Baator, LG = Seven Heavens, CG=Asgard, CE = The Abyss, etc.) where they either farm corn for eternity or become starting out fiends/ angels/ whatever. The fiends and things themselves are described in the Monster Manuals, either because at high levels you can travel to the planes, kill dead people, and take their stuff, or because demons and things visit the Prime Material Plane on occasion.

Thanks, that sounds like it could be handy as planes are a thing in every published setting as far as I know, as a place to summon monsters from at least, if nothing else.