Tome is an imperfect near-superset of DnD 3.5e. It has a lot of baggage carried into it.Lago PARANOIA wrote:If Tome is only good for 10 levels, then why am I playing it over 3.5E D&D that has the special rule of 'non-casters get DM pity artifact'?
Fighter Thread [Tome]
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Lago PARANOIA
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No, I'm saying that getting people to learn a system has a real opportunity cost so if I'm going to have my buddies learn a complicated system there'd better be a payoff. I haven't played any Tome despite liking the content of the threads, but I thought that Tome would have reasonable party balance up to level 20 or at least level 15. Level 10 ain't cutting the mustard, especially since it also didn't fix another original problem: fighter-types can't do nice things outside of combat.
3.5E D&D right now has it so that as long as you give the fighter-types a mild amount of DM pity and they're okay with just being combat monsters, you can have a game that lasts from level 1 to 10 without too much imbalance between party members. That's pretty good right there and what's more a lot of people know how to play 3.5E D&D without me having to convince them to read 50+ pages of new material. If I do get people to read those 50+ pages, what's Tome's payoff? Help me out here.
3.5E D&D right now has it so that as long as you give the fighter-types a mild amount of DM pity and they're okay with just being combat monsters, you can have a game that lasts from level 1 to 10 without too much imbalance between party members. That's pretty good right there and what's more a lot of people know how to play 3.5E D&D without me having to convince them to read 50+ pages of new material. If I do get people to read those 50+ pages, what's Tome's payoff? Help me out here.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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radthemad4
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Tome's payoff is that all classes (martials needed it the most, but Warlocks, focused casters that aren't beguilers, partial casters, etc. also benefit) can keep up in combat against enemies of the appropriate CR without DM Pity and get more interesting options. Rob was saying that some of the martial classes can get too good at combat past level 10. How useful Tome classes are outside of combat varies a lot, but you can say the same for 3.5/Pathfinder.
Also, there are a bunch of other things that are great about Tome, e.g. fun classes (though they could work in non tome games too), scaling feats, an exotic proficiency each level, cross class skills cost one rank, guidelines for playing monsters, no trap options, etc.
Also, there are a bunch of other things that are great about Tome, e.g. fun classes (though they could work in non tome games too), scaling feats, an exotic proficiency each level, cross class skills cost one rank, guidelines for playing monsters, no trap options, etc.
Last edited by radthemad4 on Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:31 am, edited 5 times in total.
It's worth noting that this was our first ever 3e campaign and no really deep system knowledge or DM pity was needed at any point to keep the characters competitive. The group is generally pretty mechanics-savvy, however even a new player (playing the Barbarian) was able to have a good time rocking face right the way through the campaign. The melee characters didn't come across as being one-trick hyper specialists and there were always a nice mix of options and choices when they were advancing that didn't end up being traps. Also, just because Tome warriors don't get enough abilities out of combat doesn't mean they don't get a much improved experience in combat. What with feats granting abilities like Blindsense or See Ethereal and the various Edge combat options the melee characters always had plenty of alternatives to "hit with sword".
I would also add that we were also using a prototype of my expanded Tome magic item system, along with my alternate armors and some early versions of our homebrew feats. None of these seemed to really push any of the characters past what the basic Tome classes and feats were providing, although obviously any increase in options will lead to something of an increase in power.
I would also add that we were also using a prototype of my expanded Tome magic item system, along with my alternate armors and some early versions of our homebrew feats. None of these seemed to really push any of the characters past what the basic Tome classes and feats were providing, although obviously any increase in options will lead to something of an increase in power.
Simplified Tome Armor.
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
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Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
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OgreBattle
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Judging__Eagle
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The RoW Fighter is exactly what was written on the package; a "Wizard equivalent" that uses BAB (and [Combat] feats]) instead of Spell slots.
This often leads to three major tiers of played Fighters.
1) Players who wouldn't play a wizard anyway.
What spells do I have again?
These players tend to make terrible feat choices; and proceed to not even use their selected feats. I've seen at least one player do this; while the barbarian I was playing in that game was terrifically more effective than their character was in, and out, of combat. Even with non-trivial damage nerfs I applied to the character by mistake taken into account; their damage per round was so high that "combat healing" became a good use of other PCs actions. While the Fighter in question picked up feats like Juggernaut, and refused to consider grappling any enemies they were adjacent to when they had Rogues right behind them in a 5 foot wide corridor, ready to both assist with a pin, and get precision damage on a pinned enemy.
2) Players who can play a wizard pretty okay.
...and for my next trick; I kill you dead
These players tend to make decent feat choices; and proceed to use them as often as they can; such a character is often considered a "good/effective combatant" by other martial characters. It's deeply ironic to me that the fighter in this example had a Wizard as their cohort; instead of the reverse (lower level characters benefit more from buffs above their power bracket than the inverse; and higher level spells are worth more than lower level ones at all times).
3) Players whose wizard's astound and confuse novice and vastly experienced/grognard MC alike at the tabletop
Sure... I'm a fighter. Now, catch!
These players realize what the goal of a character should be in a game where character death is the only real setback, and don't pretend that they need to be a single class to be a survivable adventurer. As even BAB loss can be mitigated (a variety of ways); they may pick up other classes for 1st level class abilities related to the character's build, or for specific Class skills that the Fighter doesn't get. Their feat selection will ideally involve feats that are passive/defensive (thus not wasting the characters action economy), while the 'active' feats the select can ideally be used in conjunction for more efficient use of the action economy.
At an extreme point of optimization, the "fighter" is actually the cohort of a full spellcasting Cleric with effective domain picks, or a wizard.
Summary: If your MC is crying, can you claim to be trying.
Wait you did what?! Oh, okay! Damn it all!
If you can play a Wizard whose selection and application of "not even my highest level spells" can still faceroll on-level encounters; then your Fighter is going to be similarly facerolling. The major downside being that even a small amount of [Combat] feats requires them to be copied, printed, and attached to the character sheet of even a Barbarian or Samurai; sometimes needing additional charts with damage and to-hit breakdowns for different options.
On out-of-combat uselessness: anyone can have faith whatever they want, doesn't mean it's true.
A warrior who cannot create beauty, is merely a destroyer
The RoW Fighter's wide list of class skills provides a much wider array of out-of-combat options than Kaelik pretends (which is hypocritical, or ironic, since Kaelik once also held the position that the RoW Fighter was "too good" at out of combat actions of any type). The class skills include:
Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).
Notable out-of-combat skills from that list include: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (all skills individually), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot.
If, with that short-list of skills, you cannot figure out how any character could be useful outside of combat; then perhaps wargames with storytelling layered upon are too complicated for you.
This often leads to three major tiers of played Fighters.
1) Players who wouldn't play a wizard anyway.
What spells do I have again?
These players tend to make terrible feat choices; and proceed to not even use their selected feats. I've seen at least one player do this; while the barbarian I was playing in that game was terrifically more effective than their character was in, and out, of combat. Even with non-trivial damage nerfs I applied to the character by mistake taken into account; their damage per round was so high that "combat healing" became a good use of other PCs actions. While the Fighter in question picked up feats like Juggernaut, and refused to consider grappling any enemies they were adjacent to when they had Rogues right behind them in a 5 foot wide corridor, ready to both assist with a pin, and get precision damage on a pinned enemy.
2) Players who can play a wizard pretty okay.
...and for my next trick; I kill you dead
These players tend to make decent feat choices; and proceed to use them as often as they can; such a character is often considered a "good/effective combatant" by other martial characters. It's deeply ironic to me that the fighter in this example had a Wizard as their cohort; instead of the reverse (lower level characters benefit more from buffs above their power bracket than the inverse; and higher level spells are worth more than lower level ones at all times).
3) Players whose wizard's astound and confuse novice and vastly experienced/grognard MC alike at the tabletop
Sure... I'm a fighter. Now, catch!
These players realize what the goal of a character should be in a game where character death is the only real setback, and don't pretend that they need to be a single class to be a survivable adventurer. As even BAB loss can be mitigated (a variety of ways); they may pick up other classes for 1st level class abilities related to the character's build, or for specific Class skills that the Fighter doesn't get. Their feat selection will ideally involve feats that are passive/defensive (thus not wasting the characters action economy), while the 'active' feats the select can ideally be used in conjunction for more efficient use of the action economy.
At an extreme point of optimization, the "fighter" is actually the cohort of a full spellcasting Cleric with effective domain picks, or a wizard.
Summary: If your MC is crying, can you claim to be trying.
Wait you did what?! Oh, okay! Damn it all!
If you can play a Wizard whose selection and application of "not even my highest level spells" can still faceroll on-level encounters; then your Fighter is going to be similarly facerolling. The major downside being that even a small amount of [Combat] feats requires them to be copied, printed, and attached to the character sheet of even a Barbarian or Samurai; sometimes needing additional charts with damage and to-hit breakdowns for different options.
On out-of-combat uselessness: anyone can have faith whatever they want, doesn't mean it's true.
A warrior who cannot create beauty, is merely a destroyer
The RoW Fighter's wide list of class skills provides a much wider array of out-of-combat options than Kaelik pretends (which is hypocritical, or ironic, since Kaelik once also held the position that the RoW Fighter was "too good" at out of combat actions of any type). The class skills include:
Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).
Notable out-of-combat skills from that list include: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (all skills individually), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot.
If, with that short-list of skills, you cannot figure out how any character could be useful outside of combat; then perhaps wargames with storytelling layered upon are too complicated for you.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:09 am, edited 4 times in total.
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While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
Oh look, JE is completely retarded... still. In addition to his completely useless wall of text that tells you absolutely nothing about the Tome Fighter at all, he then claims I ever said it was too good at out of combat abilities. Because even though that is the exact opposite of what I have said about it literally every time I have ever talked about it, he just doesn't understand what "out of" means.Judging__Eagle wrote:The RoW Fighter's wide list of class skills provides a much wider array of out-of-combat options than Kaelik pretends (which is hypocritical, or ironic, since Kaelik once also held the position that the RoW Fighter was "too good" at out of combat actions of any type). The class skills include:
If it were someone like Phonelobster or old RC, I'd assume he was lying, but since it is JE, I know he is really just that dumb.
So you have: Identify monsters (because that is all knowledge actually does, and that isn't actually out of combat useful), Participate in the Stealth mechanics (which isn't actually out of combat, since like 95% of all stealth is useful only against people you would combat if you failed), and Talk to people worse than the Sorcerer not casting spells.Judging__Eagle wrote:Notable out-of-combat skills from that list include: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (all skills individually), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot.
What a tremendous out of combat utility you have there.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
More like ROFLstomp such enemies, except for, like, 10-20% of monsters who are casters in monster skin or happen to be puzzles for which the party doesn't have a solution yet.radthemad4 wrote:Tome's payoff is that all classes (martials needed it the most, but Warlocks, focused casters that aren't beguilers, partial casters, etc. also benefit) can keep up in combat against enemies of the appropriate CR without DM Pity
My biggest problem with the Tome, besides the fact that it is not a complete game, of course, is that it is not really compatible with 3.X material. Even if we just ignore magic items that have no real rules for them and only use stat boosters, a party is really just as strong as a 3.X party of not simply full casters, but fairly optimized full casters, like Divine Metamagic clerics and Arcane Thesis wizards (even just in this thread you can notice reports that full casters actually have fucking problems keeping up in combat). Such party overcomes level-appropriate challenges so easily that very few pre-written adventures are usable at all for it. I'm playing DnD because published material saves me a lot of work, the Tome runs counter to that, so I'm not using the Tome.
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Whipstitch
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darkmaster
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Well, there are skill feats which do things like give you a swim speed and let you breath water, let you fly with your jump check, stuff like that, so it's not as bad as you're saying.
Kaelik wrote:Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
Don't do this. A Tome character or optimized caster bats between zero levels above pregen at level 1 and 8 levels above pregen at 20. Carefully consider how much they actually bat above average.ubernoob wrote:A Tome character or optimized caster bats about two levels above what pregen adventures expect. Just start them two levels under the suggested starting level, and pregem adventures work fine.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Whipstitch
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The armor and [Skill] feat bennies you're talking about typically don't come online until you're level 10 or so. Really, the best argument has little to do with skills and more to do with the fact that the sheer weight of feats you get makes it pretty easy to dip into Fiendish bullshit. Otherwise you're an Expert who fights better and gets to take 10 a lot.darkmaster wrote:Well, there are skill feats which do things like give you a swim speed and let you breath water, let you fly with your jump check, stuff like that, so it's not as bad as you're saying.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bears fall, everyone dies
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darkmaster
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So, what you're saying is, the ability to fly coming on line around the time flying becomes relivent is totally not a reason that skill feat benefits make skills more useful for utlity. You know, I'm not sure I buy it.
Kaelik wrote:Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Whipstitch
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It's nitpicking, but you do realize that there isn't actually a skill feat that grants flight, right? There's two armors that grant it via skill checks and for one of them you have to be level 15 and have blown 18 kill ranks on fucking jump, which is really kind of embarrassing. Also, level 10 is when flight becomes relevant? Really? That's tomes utility now?
bears fall, everyone dies
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darkmaster
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Except for the one that does. And yeah, around level ten is when you should probably be able to get to the cloud giant's castle under your own power.
Last edited by darkmaster on Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kaelik wrote:Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
I'll be honest, if you version of "Tome Feats" that are relevant to a conversation include any feat that scales based on anything made anywhere and posted anywhere, you might want to just not have that conversation. Because I'll just start making up feats that prove you wrong. I will make up a feat that adds +3 million damage but says you can't take that feat you just made up, and then say how no one will ever take yours.
Also... level 11 fly for one round followed by falling. Unimpressive.
Also... level 11 fly for one round followed by falling. Unimpressive.
Last edited by Kaelik on Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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darkmaster
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Wow, Kaelik, truly you win every argument ever. I mean really, no one could ever accuse you of being an immature shithead. Nope. Not one single person in the whole world could call you immature for you're actual, real, threats to act like a goddamn toddler with you're "nu-uh! because I have a suit of invulnerable can't shoot me armor that can't be cancled!" horse shit.
Last edited by darkmaster on Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kaelik wrote:Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
Don't link to a feat that you wrote in order to have this argument?darkmaster wrote:Wow, Kaelik, truly you win every argument ever. I mean really, no one could ever accuse you of being an immature shithead. Nope. Not one single person in the whole world could call you immature for you're actual, real, threats to act like a goddamn toddler with you're "nu-uh! because I have a suit of invulnerable can't shoot me armor that can't be cancled!" horse shit.
I mean, look, I'm definitely playing hyperbole game here, but like, can you link to it on TGD? can you link to it on Surgo's wiki instead of the shit one? Like, purity of source really isn't that important to me, but like, pls bby, you can at least try to have an argument about the Tomes by linking to shit you wrote on TGD, since that would at least be on TGD.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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darkmaster
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Didn't write the feat, and that is surgo's wiki, you dumb fucker. But no, it's fine, that you're either purposfully confusing the facts, or are too fucking stupid to recognize the difference between two sites with wildly different web design is fine, really.
Last edited by darkmaster on Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kaelik wrote:Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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AndreiChekov
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That feat is still garbage, whether or not it is recognized as "real" tome material. It doesn't actually give flight, and doesn't support your argument that you can use it to get flight.darkmaster wrote:Didn't write the feat, and that is surgo's wiki, you dumb fucker. But no, it's fine, that you're either purposfully confusing the facts, or are too fucking stupid to recognize the difference between two sites with wildly different web design is fine, really.
Peace favour your sword.
I only play 3.x
I only play 3.x
Well, we've got Super Jump right here. http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=67582#67582
Twice.
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=373074#373074
It's totally a thing.
Twice.
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=373074#373074
It's totally a thing.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm just saying, man it sure is weird to not link to Tome community material for your point (even when your point is stupid). And that also, for fucks sake, I can write down literally anything I want and it becomes Tome community material, no matter how much people hate it. So the existence of some skill feat that does something stupid no one would ever want, that also no one has ever heard of is a piss poor example of literally any point you would want to make.Zaranthan wrote:Well, we've got Super Jump right here. http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=67582#67582
Twice.
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=373074#373074
It's totally a thing.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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AndreiChekov
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