The Gaming Den

erik wrote:I could care less if people are using that for choker form "half your time". I'd pat them on the head like a newbie using magic missile if they did so.

And you would be objectively a fucking idiot for doing so. Like it's fine if you are a fucking idiot and don't know how high level works, but two fucking standard actions on your fucking Wizard every round is absofuckinglotely objectively fucking amazing which is why people do it.

I suppose it depends how combats go to high-level for your campaign. It may be strike team alpha the teleports out of their limbo palace with maximum buffs as a swat strikeforce in which case sure burn as much as you can to get ready so you can use maximim firepower. But if you were just dungeon crawling at level 18 and prophylactically using shapechange three hours at a time just see you can have double actions should combat commence then you get a pat on the head.

erik wrote:I suppose it depends how combats go to high-level for your campaign. It may be strike team alpha the teleports out of their limbo palace with maximum buffs as a swat strikeforce in which case sure burn as much as you can to get ready so you can use maximim firepower. But if you were just dungeon crawling at level 18 and prophylactically using shapechange three hours at a time just see you can have double actions should combat commence then you get a pat on the head.

You do know, changing shape is an free action. So you run around in an defensive form and when it's time to cast you change shape into an chocker.
So lets ammend the previous statement into half the combat time.

Korwin wrote:

erik wrote:I suppose it depends how combats go to high-level for your campaign. It may be strike team alpha the teleports out of their limbo palace with maximum buffs as a swat strikeforce in which case sure burn as much as you can to get ready so you can use maximim firepower. But if you were just dungeon crawling at level 18 and prophylactically using shapechange three hours at a time just see you can have double actions should combat commence then you get a pat on the head.

You do know, changing shape is an free action. So you run around in an defensive form and when it's time to cast you change shape into an chocker.
So lets ammend the previous statement into half the combat time.

Of course he doesn't know the actual fucking rules. That would get in the way of his stupid "3E haste was the greatest thing in the game because Wizards never cast it on themselves ever" argument.

Also, you'll notice my original comment was specifically "half the time" in chocker form.

Kaelik wrote:Haste not giving an extra standard action is good for the game, so long as fighters get other things to let them do shit. Really, it is.

Y'know, I never did figure out why they never seemed to consider the alternative of haste just giving a bonus move action instead of a standard.

3.5 giveth and taketh away in re: spells. I liked that the 3.0 +Stat spells were Hour per Level - you could basically run through a full adventuring day on them. I disliked that they were variable effect, though. Plowing them down to round/level just meant they didn't get used at our tables in 3.5

Ferret wrote:3.5 giveth and taketh away in re: spells. I liked that the 3.0 +Stat spells were Hour per Level - you could basically run through a full adventuring day on them. I disliked that they were variable effect, though. Plowing them down to round/level just meant they didn't get used at our tables in 3.5

Same here. The buff spells went from something to tide you over until you got a stat boost item, if you wanted one, to "eh, why bother?" It was also nice in that it was an easy way to buff NPCs without handing out a bunch of extra magic swag upon their inevitable defeat.

virgil wrote:

Kaelik wrote:Haste not giving an extra standard action is good for the game, so long as fighters get other things to let them do shit. Really, it is.

Y'know, I never did figure out why they never seemed to consider the alternative of haste just giving a bonus move action instead of a standard.

Haste, FIGHTER EDITION: Bonus move action, one extra attack during full attacks, +2 dodge bonus on AC and reflex saves.

There, it's a warrior's buff now.

You don't even need to hand out the extra attacks, if that's too on-the-nose for you. Extra move actions means a near-full saturation of full attacks, so it's already fighter as fuck.

Kaelik wrote: Of course he doesn't know the actual fucking rules. That would get in the way of his stupid "3E haste was the greatest thing in the game because Wizards never cast it on themselves ever" argument.

Also, you'll notice my original comment was specifically "half the time" in chocker form.

Don't be a twit. "Half the time" was ambiguous and you fucking know it. Korwin's suggestion to amend it to half the combat time is reasonable because it sounded to me like you meant that half of your adventuring time (not combat time), you were always having shapechange on. So basically the only 9th level spell you ever prepare and cast. Which is fucking retarded to think that's the only way people use 9th level slots and why I specifically said that using it that way is what I thought was retarded. It's an awesome spell but not the only awesome spell.

And I am just this side of not fucking interested about 17+ level play examples since at 10 different tables you will find 10 wildly different games. If that's your well to go to for winning arguments then la-te-dah.

So I did you the courtesy of putting a conditional in my statement about prophylactic use, whereas you just up to the strawman with your characterization above. I'm shocked. Shocked to find this base level of discourse in your repertoire.

I never said wizards never cast it on themselves. I never even implied it. I said that doing so didn't win combats. It helps but it isn't the game winner. Of course they cast it on themselves too, but the big exclam is that it is a party buff and that rising tide lifts all ships.

I haven't weighed in on what house rule to fix haste would have been better because that wasn't my argument. My argument was why the change made in 3.5 was worse than 3.0's version and I stand by it. It could have been altered to be better than 3.0 or 3.5 certainly, but as things stand I'd rather play with the 3e version.

erik wrote:I never said wizards never cast it on themselves. I never even implied it. I said that doing so didn't win combats. It helps but it isn't the game winner.

Yes indeed. Casting haste on yourself doesn't win combats. Only the spells you cast with your extra standard actions win combats. Just like Superior Invisibility + Non-Detection doesn't win combats, just the actions you take when no one can fucking know you are there.

erik wrote:Of course they cast it on themselves too, but the big exclam is that it is a party buff and that rising tide lifts all ships.

Except for the whole not being a party buff thing. That is relevant.

Also, let's be clear, that is not your only claim, as evidence, literally the very next paragraph were you (probably) repeat again that 3e haste makes a better game than 3.5 haste.

erik wrote:I haven't weighed in on what house rule to fix haste would have been better because that wasn't my argument. My argument was why the change made in 3.5 was worse than 3.0's version and I stand by it. It could have been altered to be better than 3.0 or 3.5 certainly, but as things stand I'd rather play with the 3e version.

I can't tell whether what you are saying here is the dumbest thing in the world, or the dumbest thing in the universe.

1) Yes, no one disputes that 3e's version is more powerful drastically so, than 3.5. We all know that 3e haste benefits literally every character more, and so since it objectively makes whatever character you are playing way the fuck more powerful, you will choose it over 3.5 version.

2) If you are saying that it makes the game better, then you are an idiot. It completely redefines the way the entire fucking game is played such that everything in the game has to be balance around Wizard double standard actions. It is a 3rd level spell that if you Persisted it using 3e Persist with no metamagic reduction at all was unquestionably better than every other 7th level buff. It was the most important 3rd level spell hands down.

This tremendous distortion to the entire fucking game is shit, and not a good thing.

Sorry, at level 13 11 you get to buff the whole party via Mass Haste. Mea culpa. Other classes did have the means to inexpensively (8k gp) activate haste self as a free action.

It's a distortion of the game the same way enhancement bonuses are a distortion. Something you expect at mid-higher level play. At a certain level threshold I just assumed it the same way I assumed enhancement buffs to armor, weapons and attributes, and resistance cloaks.

Persistent Spell was its own problem and I'd be rid of it before the spells it could be problematic with.

Edit: ugh that's what I get for posting before I leave to pick up pizza

erik wrote:It's a distortion of the game the same way enhancement bonuses are a distortion. Something you expect at mid-higher level play. At a certain level threshold I just assumed it the same way I assumed enhancement buffs to armor, weapons and attributes, and resistance cloaks.

1) Enhancement bonuses coming at the expense of actual item abilities is a bug not a feature, that is why it was changed in the Tomes. Likewise, haste is a spell and being so mandatorily better than other spells of it's level, and frankly, of other spells of much higher level, is bad for the same reason, so getting rid of it is a fucking fix.

2) The point isn't that Persistent Haste is a problem, the point is that Persistent spell is so prohibitively expensive that you can't say that about any other spell, and the only reason you can say that about haste is because haste is leagues better than every other spell of it's level and spells of much higher level too.

3)

erik wrote:At a certain level threshold I just assumed it the same way I assumed enhancement buffs to armor, weapons and attributes, and resistance cloaks.

erik wrote:But casters didn't win because of haste. You only need 1 I win spell. But it helped keep the non casters relevant in higher levels. So yes it was a no brainer to use it at higher levels but the main reason was to let the melee and archer guys get more done.

One of these things is not like the others. One of these things doesn't belong. One of these things is not like the others.

A minor note that people seem to be missing is that 3e Haste does not give an extra standard action. It gives an extra partial action, the action type you got during a surprise round. This means that, among other things, you could use it to partial charge at your full move speed, getting an extra attack and then your entire full attack routine on whoever was unlucky enough to fight a Hasted Party.

Generally, though, at low levels you didn't have enough spells to make use of Haste, and at high levels it was a better idea to just cast Mass Haste instead because Hasting your entire party was already an action worthy of spending a spell slot on, and then you got another spell after that which you could use for other stuff. It also didn't make your party hate you for wasting all of your buffing on yourself. Haste has problems because it's a buff and buffs are by themselves troublesome, but nerfing it so that it didn't actually benefit Fighters or anybody else didn't really help anything, especially since Wizards could just pick up extra actions from other sources if they wanted to nova super hard for some reason (not that they wanted to do that most of the time anyway).

LR wrote: Generally, though, at low levels you didn't have enough spells to make use of Haste, and at high levels it was a better idea to just cast Mass Haste instead because Hasting your entire party was already an action worthy of spending a spell slot on, and then you got another spell after that which you could use for other stuff. It also didn't make your party hate you for wasting all of your buffing on yourself. Haste has problems because it's a buff and buffs are by themselves troublesome, but nerfing it so that it didn't actually benefit Fighters or anybody else didn't really help anything, especially since Wizards could just pick up extra actions from other sources if they wanted to nova super hard for some reason (not that they wanted to do that most of the time anyway).

BS. The only core spell in 3.5 that grants wizards extra actions is Shapechange at 9th level, and the splatbook Celerity line that only came much later is an auto-ban at most tables for many good reasons.

Meanwhile in 3.5 Haste is a pretty great mundane buff because:
-Archers don't need to move to deliver the pain.
-Melees got easy ways to gain Pounce and/or swift action movement so that they can move and full attack without need of the wizard's help. But Haste still allows them to move and fullattack more.
-It buffs the whole party at 5th character level so the wizard isn't just casting 3.0 Haste on himself.

Really, it's still considered one of the staple spells for arcane casters in 3.5, highly recommended for both wizards and even sorcerors.

LR wrote:A minor note that people seem to be missing is that 3e Haste does not give an extra standard action. It gives an extra partial action, the action type you got during a surprise round. This means that, among other things, you could use it to partial charge at your full move speed, getting an extra attack and then your entire full attack routine on whoever was unlucky enough to fight a Hasted Party.

Except you're wrong.

D&D 3.0 wrote:Partial Action: As a general rule, a character can do as much with a partial action as a character could with a standard action minus a move. Typically, a character may take a 5-foot step as part of a partial action.

Move-Equivalent Action: Move-equivalent actions take the place of movement in a standard action or take the place of an entire partial action. The character can normally also take a 5 foot step.

Standard Action: A standard action allows a character to do something and move that character's indicated speed during a combat round. A character can move before or after performing the activity of the action.

D&D 3.0 wrote:Thus, you can attack once as a partial action, or move your speed, but you can't both move and attack unless you are performing a partial charge action.

Previn, you dumbass, that is literally the next sentence.

Stinktopus wrote:

D&D 3.0 wrote:Thus, you can attack once as a partial action, or move your speed, but you can't both move and attack unless you are performing a partial charge action.

Previn, you dumbass, that is literally the next sentence.

No, you're missing the point.

A partial action is equivalent to a standard action except that you don't get to move as well. If the best thing you can come up with making a single attack, the most basic mundane and default action you can effectively take in 3.0, you are doing it wrong. To equate the power of a partial action to an effective level of a single attack or partial charge is wasting a massive amount of potential.

It's akin to saying wizards suck as a class because their blasting spells are terrible.

Previn wrote:

Stinktopus wrote:

D&D 3.0 wrote:Thus, you can attack once as a partial action, or move your speed, but you can't both move and attack unless you are performing a partial charge action.

Previn, you dumbass, that is literally the next sentence.

No, you're missing the point.

A partial action is equivalent to a standard action except that you don't get to move as well. If the best thing you can come up with making a single attack, the most basic mundane and default action you can effectively take in 3.0, you are doing it wrong. To equate the power of a partial action to an effective level of a single attack or partial charge is wasting a massive amount of potential.

It's akin to saying wizards suck as a class because their blasting spells are terrible.

If you are in a surprise round, and you are 30ft away, and you aren't an archer or a caster, what are you going to do with your two partial actions?

Kaelik wrote:

Previn wrote:

Stinktopus wrote:
Previn, you dumbass, that is literally the next sentence.

No, you're missing the point.

A partial action is equivalent to a standard action except that you don't get to move as well. If the best thing you can come up with making a single attack, the most basic mundane and default action you can effectively take in 3.0, you are doing it wrong. To equate the power of a partial action to an effective level of a single attack or partial charge is wasting a massive amount of potential.

It's akin to saying wizards suck as a class because their blasting spells are terrible.

If you are in a surprise round, and you are 30ft away, and you aren't an archer or a caster, what are you going to do with your two partial actions?

If you are not in a surprise round, and you are 30ft away, and you aren't an archer or a caster, what are you going to do with a partial action in addition to your normal actions?

Now, yes, you could be some sort of stupid moron who follows the book and moves up and makes a single attack with their standard action and then makes an extra attack with their partial action....

Or you could use that partial action to make a partial charge and then make a full attack with 2 weapons and the full feat chain for 9+ attacks instead.

I'm not going to go through every ridiculous specific scenario some asshole on the internet decides I must justify, so whatever Kaelik.

Previn wrote:

Kaelik wrote:

Previn wrote:
No, you're missing the point.

A partial action is equivalent to a standard action except that you don't get to move as well. If the best thing you can come up with making a single attack, the most basic mundane and default action you can effectively take in 3.0, you are doing it wrong. To equate the power of a partial action to an effective level of a single attack or partial charge is wasting a massive amount of potential.

It's akin to saying wizards suck as a class because their blasting spells are terrible.

If you are in a surprise round, and you are 30ft away, and you aren't an archer or a caster, what are you going to do with your two partial actions?

If you are not in a surprise round, and you are 30ft away, and you aren't an archer or a caster, what are you going to do with a partial action in addition to your normal actions?

Now, yes, you could be some sort of stupid moron who follows the book and moves up and makes a single attack with their standard action and then makes an extra attack with their partial action....

Or you could use that partial action to make a partial charge and then make a full attack with 2 weapons and the full feat chain for 9+ attacks instead.

I'm not going to go through every ridiculous specific scenario some asshole on the internet decides I must justify, so whatever Kaelik.

You are a goddam idiot. We know you can full attack when you aren't in a surprise round, he was saying you could use the partial action in a surprise round to charge the full length. You know, in a surprise round, when you can't full attack.

And you called him an idiot for using it in a surprise round to get one one instead of zero attacks, because if you were in that situation you would just arbitrarily declare yourself not to be a in a surprise round, and you would then full attack. Fucking idiot, you can't decided to not be in a surprise round just because you want more actions.

Kaelik wrote:And you called him an idiot for using it in a surprise round to get one one instead of zero attacks, because if you were in that situation you would just arbitrarily declare yourself not to be a in a surprise round, and you would then full attack. Fucking idiot, you can't decided to not be in a surprise round just because you want more actions.

He never specified distance. In fact you're the one who specified 30'.

At 30' it would be at minimum 2 attacks not 1. 1 from the hasted partial charge, and 1 attack with the normal partial action (you can partial charge with your un-hasted partial action and a partial charge is your base movement which was usually 30') assuming no other abilities and only 1 attack basic attack available. But since pounce equivlents were avalable in 3.0, as was two weapon fighting, if there were 2 targets in range you could pull at least 8 attacks with each partial charge, so an extra 8 attacks from the partial action from haste.

But we can't let the rules get in the way of a good Kaeliking, now we can we?

I'm not playing the game of one hypothetical situation after another with more and more absurd restrictions, and frankly trying to have a conversation with you is vexing enough when you're not Kaeliking all over the place. Luckily this is the interwebs and I don't have to engage with you.

Previn wrote:He never specified distance. In fact you're the one who specified 30'.

He very specifically stated charge your full speed. I don't know why you would want to charge your full speed if someone is within half distance of you.

But you know what, it doesn't even matter, rereading what he said, he said you could charge then full attack someone, and you said "what a fucking idiot" and when asked why, you finally explained "what kind of loser charges someone with a partial action and then full attacks, a smart person like me would just charge the person with a partial action, then full attack."

Since your official position is that he is an idiot for not saying the thing he did say, I'm going to treat this issue as completely solved by your response where you say that people should do exactly what he said they should do.

Previn wrote:At 30' it would be at minimum 2 attacks not 1. 1 from the hasted partial charge, and 1 attack with the normal partial action (you can partial charge with your un-hasted partial action and a partial charge is your base movement which was usually 30') assuming no other abilities and only 1 attack basic attack available.

Unless you know, you have a move speed of 20'. Like because you are a Fighter, in heavy armor.

Previn wrote:I'm not playing the game of one hypothetical situation after another with more and more absurd restrictions, and frankly trying to have a conversation with you is vexing enough when you're not Kaeliking all over the place. Luckily this is the interwebs and I don't have to engage with you.

Let's be clear, you called him a shitter for (apparently) not doing the cool optimal thing that you would do, but instead doing . . . well, exactly that.

But regardless oh whether or not you and I both misread what he said in different ways, I presented one single hypothetical that didn't change, because you are a fucking idiot who can't read, you read the words "in a surprise round" as "not in a surprise round." Me correcting your reading failure is not adding new restrictions.

FrankTrollman wrote:What's weird is that Wizards seems to be basically surrendering on that point. Rather than try to match the community functionality that people want and get elsewhere, they are just letting the fans put it all together off site. That probably passed muster with some bobblehead suit somewhere ("all the functionality people want is being outsourced for free, we spend nothing and get everything we need") but holy crap is that playing with fire. They are letting people who don't work for them make all decisions about presentation of their product to other people. I mean, that seems to be going fine now, but what do they do if the Channel Fireball or Pucatrade people start promoting a card format that involves only cards found on the secondary market? What if the off-site community decides for whatever reason to straight up boycott whatever the latest set is?

Is it even possible to control community choice? I've seen FFG try to control where people build decks and check cards with Netrunner, they went down hard on netrunnerdb in favor of their own resource (can't even remember the name), but in the end backed out when community started petitioning and stuff. Now netrunnerdb is the first place to go for deckbuilding and card discussion, and there is a ffg-owned alternative. And also official forums, not sure anyone cares about them

Of course, netrunner isn't a CCG, so they don't care about secondary market that much.

Someone's probably already rounded up all the good (and bad) stuff they could find from those forums and hidden them somewhere. At least, I hope so.