The Gaming Den

Occluded Sun wrote:It's pretty hard NOT to reinvent the wheel, here. By and large, gamers don't want radically new monsters, they want the old stuff with an exciting new hat.

Mearls' job is to make new hats and put them on old monsters. That's *one* job, and it's being screwed up.

This is Occluded Sun's total lack of surprise.

Unconvincing. I'd suggest the majority of D&D players that still buy from WotC just want their old shit back. They don't want jaunty caps or whatever shit. They just want stat blocks for monsters they already know, and options for their characters.

The shit that actually sold books... when there were books to buy.

Wow, fifth edition pandering to grognards? STOP THE PRESSES!


In all seriousness I don't think the vast majority of people know or care about Volo and Elminister (the king of all self-insert fanfiction). It will sell to the grogs who bought 5e and the players who flipped to 5e because rules are hard, and that's really all they expect.

Are you sure that is the plan?
I'm getting mixed signals.

Step 1: produce bare bones core books

Step 2: produce no books except shitty modules every 6+ months. Or so. Ish.

Step 3: whore the line out to other small publishers who want to word salad on the adventures and the only remaining setting, if they'll reprint shitty playtest rules from the website

And now step 4: finally produce a book in house, reprinting a back catalog of ecology articles with shitty characters doing a terrible attempt at Manzai comedy (that didn't work In the 90s when the characters were relevant) with a little bit of game rules.

Step five ???

Step six: Sixth edition! Or hasbro gets tired of this shitshow and brings the hammer down.

I'm surprised they haven't brought back Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog. It have very little crunch, maybe five pages, and a lot of fluff. They could pretty much reprint it, update the rules to 5ed, add some new items and more stock art and there is a book.

Voss wrote: Step six: Sixth edition! Or hasbro gets tired of this shitshow and brings the hammer down.

I'd be curious to see who they try to market this to, seeing as 4e crashed and 5e was stillborn.

CapnTthePirateG wrote:

Voss wrote: Step six: Sixth edition! Or hasbro gets tired of this shitshow and brings the hammer down.

I'd be curious to see who they try to market this to, seeing as 4e crashed and 5e was stillborn.

Well, from that article, Mearls at least says he wants to market to the Game of Thrones audience. I don't know if grognards are part of that audience, but it is painfully obvious this product isn't actually Game of Thrones-y at all. It's a late 90s 'step-away-from-death' TSR product in every way except page quality and overly lavish colors and art.

As for a hypothetical Game of Thrones edition D&D, the two don't gel together in my mind in any way. They're completely different ends of fantasy genre, with different purposes and way different assumptions. GoT is way more what WW games always pretended to be, but never actually managed (well, except the shitty people and murderporn). Or if you stripped out some absurdity and humor from the warhammer fantasy RPG (original edition, before the power scale creeped up).

But I think the assumption is that the theoretical people who bought the 5e PH from Amazon at 50% are desperate for anything with a D&D label that they can actually buy (that wasn't actually done by Kobold, Sasquatch or Green Ronin), that they will just buy this out of reflex. What is really puzzling is a week before this piece of shit comes out, another piece of shit called Dungeonology comes out, which despite the mind flayer on the cover (and the name), is actually a travel guide of the FR, narrated by Volo, but done by some guy over at Templar Publishing/Candlewick Press, whoever the fuck that is. I seriously don't know what the fuck is going on. Are they actually relaunching the FR as a setting? But in a really shitty way with absurdly niche products, with second parties doing most of the work (the sword coast adventures guide was largely done by Green Ronin)

What is really puzzling is a week before this piece of shit comes out, another piece of shit called Dungeonology comes out, which despite the mind flayer on the cover (and the name), is actually a travel guide of the FR, narrated by Volo, but done by some guy over at Templar Publishing/Candlewick Press, whoever the fuck that is.

Wat.

Candlewick Press is a children's book imprint. They make Pepa Pig books. They do not make books about brain eating tentacle monsters. Templar Press is the same thing, but based in London. That really sounds like a publishing industry in-joke rather than a real thing.

/in fact, I'm gonna guess you just got punked or read something by someone who was confused. Volo's Guide to Monsters is going to have a limited edition "collector's" print run with an alternate cover. It looks like this:



I don't know why I'd want a limited collector's edition of something so half assed. But considering that the printing proofs were already done I'm sure it wasn't a whole lot of extra work to get the alternate version out. It would be very weird to me if it didn't make a small amount of money.

-Username17

No, Frank, its for serious.
There are two products (and they are #19 and #20 of the products published for 5e, if you include the two sundering adventures and the fake ravenloft-gypsy-tarot deck by galeforce 9):
This shit,
http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tableto ... o-monsters

and this shit

http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tableto ... ngeonology

SYNOPSIS

See the Forgotten Realms as you've never seen them before!

The world's most beloved role-playing game, Dungeons & Dragons, joins the legendary 'Ology series as Volo the Wizard takes you on an unforgettable journey to the Forgotten Realms. From the dreaming spires of Waterdeep to the frozen majesty of Drizzt Do'Urden's Icewind Dale, and from the despicable Underdark to the mysterious Underchasm, you'll learn the history, secrets, and wonders of this incredible world.

PRE-ORDER AT YOUR LOCAL STORE

PRE-ORDER ONLINE

ITEM DETAILS

Price: $24.99 C$29.99
Release Date: 08 November, 2016
Format: Hardcover
ISBN: 978-0763693534
WHERE CAN I BUY IT?

Published by Templar Publishing/Candlewick Press. Purchase it at your local game store, book stores such as Barnes & Noble, or online at retailers like Amazon (or at Amazon.co.uk).

Candlewick/Templar publish the 'Ology books (Dragonology, Wizardology, etc.) that are fantasy "non-fiction" picture books aimed at middle readers.

Well fuck. I guess that's "real." But honestly if a few years ago you had posted Candlewick Press presents: Dungeonology to Photoshop Friday I would expect you to get a lot of likes. I mean, you wouldn't win, because the joke is pretty obscure (you need to know the names of children's picture book publishers and know what a mind flayer is), but the juxtaposition is a lot more hilairous than most of what makes it into those contests.

I guess the bottom line is that 5th edition is now in real life producing the punchlines to jokes we would have made about how badly they were doing as hyperbole. Mike Mearls has slain the dragons that are irony and hyperbole. It is no longer possible to mock his fail parade metaphorically.

-Username17

At this point, I feel the entirety of Mearls' philosophy on maintaining his job after the 4e culling is "You tried your best and failed miserably. The lesson is: never try."

I don't think the dungeonology book really counts as a 5e product. It's a licensed book that will hopefully shift copies and create crossover appeal. The 'Ology books are pretty popular and often get racked face-out in the children's section of bookstores. It's a grab to expand the consumers of D&D material, rather than the players of the game. Similarly, Candlewick also published the Dungeons and Dragons coloring book that just came out.

Think of this more like an RA Salvatore book than a D&D sourcebook, just aimed at 8-10 year-olds. Honestly connecting your brand with one that is popular with children just a little bit younger than your player base could be a good idea. It gets them primed and interested in D&D, as well as the Forgotten Realms. A fan of this book could go on to play D&D, read Drizz't books, or play the latest FR video game. The risk would be associating the brand with younger children, which could lead the teen demographic to avoid it.

I bet this was a push from someone higher up in the Hasbro food chain.

ETortoise wrote:I don't think the dungeonology book really counts as a 5e product. It's a licensed book that will hopefully shift copies and create crossover appeal. The 'Ology books are pretty popular and often get racked face-out in the children's section of bookstores. It's a grab to expand the consumers of D&D material, rather than the players of the game. Similarly, Candlewick also published the Dungeons and Dragons coloring book that just came out.
.

That isn't the point of bringing it up. After 2 years and 4 months, this is the 'product line' for 5e:

http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tableto ... g-products
you may have to hit (more products) a couple times to show them all

If you're feeling really generous you can go back to the 2013 preview adventure (Ghosts of Dragonspear) using the D&D Next playtest rules (which aren't really the 5e rules).

If you count the pre-release adventures, there are 20 5e products in just over two years:

3 pre release modules
3 core books (no idea why the PH is on the page twice)
1 starter set
2 DM screens
5 hard back modules
1 module supplement (supposedly there are actual player options here)
1 sword coast adventure guide (some reprints of website articles + a refluff of standard FR shit)
1 set of fake tarot cards for the NotGypsies of Ravenloft (which ties to the Curse of Strahd 'adventure')
1 seriously a coloring book
1 this young adults thing, part of a series rezzed for no reason
1 Volo's monster thing, which is a weird mix of old school fluff and stat blocks

And a fair amount of digging (looking at the back cover on amazon) will reveal that many of the modules and the Sword coast book weren't even produced in house. Which means that in the over two years since the launch of the new edition, the WotC D&D team has managed to produce maybe 7 books and two DM screens.

But wait, lets break those down
Curse of Strahd- actually done in house
Volo's Guide to Monsters- apparently in house
Storm King's Thunder- lacking other evidence, in house

SKT DM Screen- GaleForce9
Sword Coast Adventures, Green Ronin
Out of the Abyss, Green Ronin
Princes of the Apocalypse, Sasquatch Game Studio
Companion to PotA- not actually a product, but a free download
Rise of Tiamat, Kobold Press.

So actually, they manage to do 3 books and a DM screen. That is sum total of WotC products for 5e beyond the core books and starter set, and Curse, Storm King were earlier this year, and Volo's Guide comes out next month.

This really is vaporware edition- it has gotten less support and less product than anything since the original pamphlets. And I'm not even 100% certain about that.

Whatever marketing strategy or business plan they've got, it barely includes making products to sell, or developing 5e as anything. 1st and 2nd spammed the shit out of everything, BECMI had Mystara and the slew of gazetteers , 3rd was a complex web of products, licenses and spinoffs to drag people in. 4th burned really hot before it flamed out. 5e is basically.... nothing. No character, no support, no indication that anyone gives a shit. Instead they're recycling shitty ideas that didn't do well in the early 90s under TSR. Really, 2016 is going to be the year of Strahd, Volo and roughly the fourth or fifth attempt at a shitty 'tarot' card deck for D&D? Mearls and company should be amazingly embarrassed to even think that this would sell.

And that is the point, really. The existence of an actual business plan seems to be shrouded in mystery, if not non-existence. Weren't there supposed to be a shitload of modular options that would just plug into the ruleset? Yeah, it was obviously bullshit at the time, but they didn't even try. Just subcontracted some crap, then turned to recycling the failures of the 90s.

There have been rumors about licensing the brand, a D&D movie, and so on leading me to believe the business plan was to make movies and cartoons and shit and keep the actual tabletop game as a side thing that was for branding.

I have heard nothing of the D&D movie (and we may not see it after the Warcraft flop) for a long time. Everything I've seen out of 5e seems bent on trying to recapture the aging 1e-2e grognard demographic (Strahd, Forgotten Realms, Volo) with bones for 3e and 4e thrown in and absolutely no new ideas at all. As Voss pointed out, they can't do Game of Thrones because that setting has no place for elf wizards, dwarf clerics, tieflings, mind flayers, and the rest of the stuff that lives in D&D - and half the players are going to be there to go on the magic quest to find Emilia Clarke's boobs,

The fanbase is splintered into Pathfinder, 4e remnants, and all 3 people who think 5e is a good game.

The only reason shit is still coming out is because I suspect Hasbro doesn't want to sell the IP.

I'm not sure 'licensing the brand' makes any sense. What brand? It's kitchen sink all the way down. I guess they could make more Waterdeep boardgames, but by and large, they're wandering around with fewer licensed properties as is.

The D&D computer games were once a real thing people gave a shit about, but the but 4e 'mmo-lite' was awful, and the attempt at Baldur's Gate style game (w/ DMing support!) in Sword Coast Legends was an utter failure.

I guess there are still novels (I actually had to check), with some Tiefling running around as well as more Salvatore and Greenwood Paint-By-Trope books, but as a company they're barely supporting an IP anymore, just game mechanics.

As for movies...forget Warcraft, the D&D movie idea has been consistently terrible. What would be the pitch? Fourth time won't be an utter flop?

They kept making Superman movies so I could see them trying for DnD.

Voss wrote: Fourth time won't be an utter flop?

So you are not counting Autumn Twilight?

Leress wrote:

Voss wrote: Fourth time won't be an utter flop?

So you are not counting Autumn Twilight?

Oh, did they actually make that?

Voss wrote:

Leress wrote:

Voss wrote: Fourth time won't be an utter flop?

So you are not counting Autumn Twilight?

Oh, did they actually make that?

It had Lucy Lawless and Kiefer Sutherland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonlan ... n_Twilight

Wasn't terrible, wasn't great either.

FrankTrollman wrote:I don't know why I'd want a limited collector's edition of something so half assed. But considering that the printing proofs were already done I'm sure it wasn't a whole lot of extra work to get the alternate version out. It would be very weird to me if it didn't make a small amount of money.

-Username17

It's quite the contrary for me: I don't understand why I'd want a non-collector version of something so half-assed. At least the collector's edition has a cool and unique look'n'feel, it looks good among other RPG books. The standard edition looks like any other D&D book and has the same shitty content, not having it in your shelves is the same as having it: why should anyone bother?

GâtFromKI wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:I don't know why I'd want a limited collector's edition of something so half assed. But considering that the printing proofs were already done I'm sure it wasn't a whole lot of extra work to get the alternate version out. It would be very weird to me if it didn't make a small amount of money.

It's quite the contrary for me: I don't understand why I'd want a non-collector version of something so half-assed. At least the collector's edition has a cool and unique look'n'feel, it looks good among other RPG books. The standard edition looks like any other D&D book and has the same shitty content, not having it in your shelves is the same as having it: why should anyone bother?

If the collector's edition is the same glossy cover as the regular one, then I'd be annoyed. That cover looks like it should be embossed leather, and I hope it is.

So, here's a review of the Dungeonology book that was mentioned...

Prak wrote:So, here's a review of the Dungeonology book that was mentioned...

I feel dirty for thinking this might be a good book for my 7 year old.

Templar/Candlewick Press are good at what they do, which is make entertaining, vaguely educational books for the 7-10 market. WotC seems to have been trying to expand their appeal into younger markets starting with the transitory period between 3.5 and 4e, with the Dungeon Survival Guide, so Dungeonology is not a surprising product, really.