[OSSR] Spelljammer: AD&D Adventures In Space Boxed Set

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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Ancient History wrote:not many people thought of spelljammers as being floating castles and shit.
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My space-castle has a moustache, your argument is invalid.

What depresses me is that when I looked up this image, I discovered that even the biggest space-castles are tiny. This thing is supposed to be at most 700 tons due to the limits of dwarf spelljamming forges. The HMS Surprise is 657 tons, and it was a fucking sixth-rate made of wood. HMS Victory displaces 3500 tons. I shudder to think what the actual scale of the citadel would have to be to get it in under its weight limit.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:This thing is supposed to be at most 700 tons due to the limits of dwarf spelljamming forges.
But apparently they define 'ton' as 1000 gallons of water. And one gallon of water weighs 8 pounds. So 1000 gallons weighs 8,000 pounds. Which is actually four tons (defined as 2,000 pounds).

So 700 Spelljammer tons is possibly equivalent to 2800 real tons, keeping in mind that ton is a measure of weight and weight is a function of gravity, so they have to mean mass.

And that still doesn't get you to the weight of the HMS Victory. But it certainly does rule out Krynn style flying citadels. Unless they do mean weight, not mass, and a floating object if effectively weightless, so you can have as many of them as you want.
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Post by Zaranthan »

My mind is now throwing in more science and imagining some absurd spelljammer megafortress that underestimates the size of a planet they're approaching, causing the fort to slide above 700 tons in microgravity and suddenly plummeting from the heavens.
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Post by tussock »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ton#Units_of_volume

Shipping tons mean any measurement from 35 (displacement) to 100 (cargo capacity) cubic feet, and 1000 gallons is like 133 cuft, so somewhere near the top end of that. Probably when they looked it up in the encyclopedia at the library they figured there was no standard and just made up a number that was easier to use.

But it does save the Citadel because the cargo capacity one only cares about how much usable empty space is inside it. Spelljammer helms are thus limited by the volume of things that are not the ship but inside the ship, including the space for more things.

So giant mostly solid rocks, easy to move. Big gas bags, impossible. :thumb:
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Post by Username17 »

Spelljammer also discussed making fortresses in space. But:
  • 1. No real discussion of why you would want a fortress in space. Spelljammer space isn't as big as actual space, but it's still real big. And the amount of volume interdictable by a space fortress is pretty small. Large objects force things that come within 7 miles of them to go to tactical speed, but so fucking what? Spelljamming ships are moving one hundred million miles a day, and your 14 mile bubble of hate has a 1 in seventy-one thousand chance of making someone even have to slow down on a one day journey.

    2. No real discussion of how you would defend a fortress in space. Spelljammer ships are real fast even at tactical speed, and they can drag and toss rocks from any direction. Basically every spelljammer ship has a built in mass driver that it can deploy on unmoving targets from any direction in three dimensions whenever they want to. Basically your fortress is subjected to drops of 10 ton rocks from any direction that fly at 500 yards per round per spelljammer rating.
So I got nothing.

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Post by Woot »

Avast, me hearties! Let's take a gander at the ships and see what we find. We're looking at the ships here and looking for ways in which they do (or don't) make sense, with respect to the goals and rules of the setting. Along with my own color commentary, of course.

A couple of quick terms I should define, and by define, I mean shamelessly copy from the book.

Tonnage: Tonnage of the ship determines hull points and amount of crew and passengers that may be safely carried.

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Maneuver Class: The rating for the ships maneuverability. This affects the ships ability to turn and evade in combat. A is the best, F the worst. WTF mate, have I wandered into Traveller and not noticed?!? Oh wait, it's the 2e aerial combat rules. Crap.

Ship's Rating: The speed of the ship in combat. Ships that use major or minor spelljamming helms are noted as such, and have variable speeds according to the spellcaster manning the helm.

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Flitter

A tiny 1-ton elf butterfly ship. It's primary purpose is sending messages or scouting, but is also used in “depowered” versions as a fighter or landing craft. Now this is interesting – apparently there are “conventional engines” of one kind or another, never really well described, which can move ships at speeds useful on the tactical map, but can't reach the 100 million miles/day rate that spelljamming helms can reach. Given the expense of spelljamming helms, this is probably reasonable. I'll also note that the elves apparently use these as landing craft, even though the description of conventional engines says they can't be used to lift of anything larger than bout 10 miles across. Which strikes me as weird, since it's not like larger worlds have higher gravity or anything, so it's completely unclear why that limitation exists. But this is 2nd edition elves we're dealing with, so they are Officially Better Than You. (At least until they stop gaining levels!)

Their use as fighters doesn't make a great deal of sense, either. Apparently, as fighters, they can't mount shipboard weapons, but the elves load them up with archers or mages. Which seems a bit silly, in regards to the mages: if I had mages at my command, I wouldn't send them out in a pokey ship that dies in one hit, but I'm only a human, so what do I know? There's also a mention of Firewinds, a ship not used since the Unhuman war, hundreds of years ago – essentially a flitter loaded down with flammables and kamikazied into enemy ships. Pilot is either an elf who is trained to “bail out if possible” (where, onto the deck of the now-flaming enemy ship!?) or is otherwise a charmed man or orc. I actually went and looked up how charm works in 2e, and that is plausible. Your average orc is going to fail 95% of his saving throws against spells, and should remain charmed for several weeks, so the idea passes the sniff test.

Mosquito

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No, wait

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There we go!

A little 6-ton ship, also useful as a scout/shuttle/kamikaze ship. The big advantage is the larger crew size and not being made by goddamn elves.

Caravel

A 10 ton ship; basically a small groundling vessel that some ignorant groundlings have stuck a spelljamming helm on. All of it's stats suck because, duh, groundlings. Essentially you give this ship to your players when they're all excited about exploring space, so that spacers they meet can verbally shit all over their vessel, and or just destroy it outright in ship-to-ship combat because of how bad it is. This lets you, the DM, stroke your cock about what an asshole you're being to your players. A vital component of any adventure, really.

Dragonfly

Possibly the first ship your players are going to care about. 10 tons, decently maneuverable, can be run with a crew of 3. Great for smugglers, adventurers, or wizards who want to get away from it all. Could be up-armored, but really, at that point just get a Damselfly.

Damselfly

Essentially, a 2nd generation improved Dragonfly. Tougher and enclosed but less maneuverable. 'Nuff said.

Wasp

Another bug-looking ship! This is a lizardman creation, bigger but clumsier than the above ships.

Tyrant Ship
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23 tons of NOPE. Beholders are locked in a deadly game of cat and also cat, constantly warring with other beholders who look slightly different from them. The stats provided are for a “typical” ship, but they will of course vary.

They're crewed mostly by regular beholders, lead by a beholder Hive mother, and the ship is powered by orbi (singular: orbus) which is a runty, deformed beholder which is tolerated by other beholders due to their utility in making their ships go.

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trollface.jpg

These ships typically lack weapons, but can channel the beholder's abilities to create a beam of various beholder rays. Fortunately, this only extends about 400 yards – hexes on the combat grid are 500 yards, so they need to get into point-blank range to wreck your ship. As long as your Ship's Rating is as good as theirs, you should be safe, and in fact, you could plink their ship to pieces. The book specifically calls this out as the recommended strategy for dealing with beholder ships, but then warns you that if their ship is destroyed, the surviving beholders will try to swarm your ship.

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So, even with a lowly SR of 1, you can travel 500 yards a round. Regular beholders can fly at... 30 feet a round. Hive mothers can fly at 60. Presumably, if you can fly fast enough to stay out of range of their ship's combined beam and destroy it, you're fast enough to escape the vengeful beholders. In fact, depending on if you've got a pair of big ones, this becomes a great opportunity to have your very own beholder turkey shoot, for a cool 14K XP per beholder you down, and 24K for the Hive mother.

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Tradesman

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The ship that really knows how to make an entrance

25 tons of pokey mercantile goodness. Or badness. Or loot. Despite the fishy look of the vessel, the fins at the bottom prevent it from landing on land or in water, though spacedocks are fine. Useful for trading, adventuring, or if packed with fighting men, piracy. Possibly a light warship, if you're desperate.

Gnomish Sidewheeler

The fascination with making Krynnish Tinker Gnomes the butt of jokes continues! I wish they'd stop. Yeah, it's a tinker gnome ship, which means it's kludged together, prone to blowing up, etc. Your players will want nothing to do with this ship. Forcing them to encounter one in deep space will be funny. Once. Maybe.

Nautiloid

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Definitely a cool looking ship! A bit pokey, but not a bad little vessel. Shame about having to deal with (i.e. kill) illithids to get one. And then being mistaken for illithids when you're flying around in it. You'll also need to source your own helm, since these ships are powered by one of two odd, illithid-specific spelljamming systems: one that runs off of their psionic blast abilities, or one powered by a brain pool. The in-game explanation is that this is because the illithids have very few wizards or clerics, which is mostly consistent with the lore (though it varies over the years, and even within Spelljammer) but I suspect it's also to make it harder for your players to take one as a prize.

So that's the first 10 ships. I'll cover the next 10 in my next post. Until then, smooth sailing!
Last edited by Woot on Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by K »

The neogi ships were the best.
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Post by Username17 »

In AD&D and 2nd Edition AD&D, charm was basically dominate. At least, a lot of the text treated it as if it was. 3rd edition sorted that shit out, but left a lot of creatures with charm effects they could use and lore that treated them as if they had dominate effects. Beholders and Mind Flayers in particular used to have charm powers, which let them enslave people and force them to work to death in slave pits. 3rd edition rules kept the society, but changed the spells so that they explicitly didn't do that, making everyone wonder how the fuck the Mind Flayers and Beholders were supposed to get their tyranny on.

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Post by Thaluikhain »

Always liked the Nautiloids, it looks alien in a suitably squid faced way, but also doesn't look too out of place compared to a squidship or hammership.
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Post by Woot »

@Frank

Why you’d want a base seems to be understandable enough - ships are cramped, lack the comforts of home, don’t have room for libraries or workshops or chapels or swimming pools full of electrum coins. Why they chose to talk about building castles in space is an incredible oversight. It’s almost vaguely excusable if we were talking about the idea being tossed out in the original boxed set, before the ideas had all been worked out, but it’s pretty inexcusable in the Spacefarer’s Handbook, which came out three years later. It’s an idea that’s just so obviously stuck in “traditional” medieval D&D thinking that I can’t help but think whoever wrote it just couldn’t get their head around it. Either that, or more insultingly, they thought the player base couldn’t get their head around the idea that open castles in space is a dumb idea.

Your ability to project power could be a little broader than just the 14 mile bubble of hate, however. If you have some magical way of detecting ships at range, then using your base to launch interdiction missions becomes a possibility. All spelljamming ships travel 100 million miles a day, so depending on their course, you could intercept them. It gets better if your detection system can tell you useful information about the ship. Even something as simple as “tonnage” probably gives you a clue as to whether or not you want to intercept a particular target.

I’ve always thought that the “ideal” spelljammer fortress would be something like a smallish (10-100 mile) asteroid liveworld, where you dig out a long tunnel into the interior, cloak the tunnel entrance with an illusion (and maybe a door) and build your base deep inside. You could then build one or more shafts to the surface to enable easy access for foraging, water flow, etc. Ideally, someone stopping by to replenish their food, air, or water wouldn’t even know you were there. If they somehow find out you’re there, their options for attacking you all involve them coming along paths you know about. (Assuming they don’t have good scrying, teleportation, or digging-through-rock capabilities of their own, anyway, but you’d be screwed in any case then.)
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Post by RelentlessImp »

Honestly what Spelljammer needed was ships the size of 40k's. That way you could have roving mobile fortresses with literal entire cities within them.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

RelentlessImp wrote:Honestly what Spelljammer needed was ships the size of 40k's. That way you could have roving mobile fortresses with literal entire cities within them.
They did (for a given value of "city", they say it has a city on it a few times, but it's still not that big), the Spelljammer. From which all other lesser ships get their name.

If such things were common, you'd run into the problems of scaling D&D battles up, though.
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Post by Woot »

@RelentlessImp

As much as I like 40K, and think huge spaceships are cool, they'd be rather impractical, as Taluikhain points out. D&D in all of it's various incarnations works best as it's designed: as a game about a small (3-6) group of adventurers facing groups of enemies on a similar scale. A campaign could absolutely be about taking over a ship the size of a 40K ship, section by section, via dozens of fights wherein thousands of enemies are slain, but at that point, it becomes basically just a regular campaign-long dungeon crawl with different set dressing.

Likewise, once the ship is captured, you'd need to hire thousands of people to crew it. High-level (level 9+) AD&D 2e has some rules about that sort of thing, but you're really playing a very different game at that point - HR & Logistics instead of Dungeons & Dragons.

You could also have a campaign where the party are essentially just crewmembers on a ship of that size, but at that point, you've basically thrown out most of the Age of Sail tropes (since they're just faceless redshirts) and at that point, you might as well just be having them adventure in a city of that size, albeit with different set dressing.

Next post is being worked on; hope to have it up shortly.
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Post by Woot »

Good morning/afternoon/evening/whatever-it-is-wherever-the-hell-you-are!

We'll be finishing the 2nd chapter of the Lorebook of the Void in this post, reviewing the other 10 ships in the chapter.

This post is brought to you by the music of Black Sabbath, Mount Gay Black Barrel Rum and Cock & Bull Bitter Orange soda:

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And more specifically, 4.5oz of Mount Gay in 12oz of Cock & Bull.

(That's 355ml and 133ml, for those of you who labor under the brutal oppressive communism of government-run healthcare and, therefore, don't use FreedomUnits(tm). Don't worry, the CIA is totally working on a plan to get you guys REAL FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY(tm) and they assure us that this time, their plan will definitely totally work!)

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Ok, enough nonsense, you're here for the ships!

Neogi Mindspider
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I'm going to LAY EGGS... in your SOUL!!!!!

Here we have the Neogi Mindspider, another one of the iconic Spelljammer ships. As it's namesake implies, it's a SPIDER! With... 5 legs. In the front. And a tower. And, like... upside down. But BRÜTAL nonetheless!

Apparently this ship is the Neogi's new hotness. It's manueverable (Class C!), reasonably tough (40 hull points), but saves as metal, which is TÖTÄLLY MËTÄL.

Neogi ships are typically powered by Lifejammers, which they power with the slaves that the Neogi are so fond of taking. Lifejammers work like Minor Helms except for the fact that every day of use does 1d8 damage to the user and forces them to make a death save every day.

This strikes me as... inefficient. Assuming our victim is a regular 0-level human, they've got a 68.75% chance of dying the first day from hitpoint damage alone, followed by an 80% chance of failing the saving throw. They're going to be going through a LOT of slaves. Now, sure, you can feed your mind-controlled slaves the meat from slaves who expired in the Lifejammer, but you still need to provision air. And of course, since the Neogi measure status by the number of slaves one has, even given their disregard for non-Neogi lives, this seems to be oddly risky.

Galleon

Yep, it's a galleon, the sort of ship you're probably already familiar with. It works, more or less, as a spacefaring ship, except for having a crummy class E manuverability. Better than using a caravel, one supposes.

Squid Ship
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Another iconic Spelljammer design. 45 tons, decently maneuverable (class D) for it's size, versatile enough for trading, raiding, or just regular D&D party stumblefucking around through space.

Dragonship
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The Shou Lung, Forgotten Realm's China expy, has a dedicated policy of space exploration. This is, of course, an expy of the Ming Treasure Voyages, modulo being in Spelljammer. Despite being built by a groundling nation, they're only very slightly worse than the Squid Ship, needing slightly more crew and having slightly less cargo space.

Hammership
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Another iconic ship. 60 tons, and not less maneuverable than the Squid Ship. If the party wants a beefy ship that won't draw too much attention, but it useful in a lot of different roles, from combat to cargo hauling, here it is.

Man-o-War
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Another elfy butterfly ship. More maneuverable than the Hammership albeit slightly less tough. The mainline vessel of the Elven Navy, and not a bad vessel for PCs, either, if they can get their hands on one.

Neogi Deathspider
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A big, ungainly 100-ton ship. Capable of carrying an entire Mindspider, according to the text, though why that would be useful is entirely unclear. Powered by Lifejammers, like the Mindspider, and the extra size makes doing so more viable.

Armada
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100-tons of Elf Butterfly Ship. Basically, the command ship for Elven fleets, and they'll kill you if they catch you with one. Hence, not a great ship for your players, unless they're ready to fuck up elves wherever they go, which... is pretty forgivable, actually.

Citadel
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A 300-700 ton asteroid, turned into a mobile mining base by dorfs. Since they're totally nonmagical in 2e, Citadels have a “forge” inside of them whereby the creative works of dwarves is turned into motive power for the ship. Takes 2d4 years per 100 tons to mine out the asteroid to the point of uselessness, which strikes me as an awfully short time. On the other hand, I have no idea what volume of material a medieval miner could extract, and Google is being entirely useless, so I don't have any idea if that figure is anything like realistic.

The Spelljammer
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A ginormous manta ray with a small city on it's back. The MacGuffin of the setting, it would later receive it's own boxed set, which is pretty neat – I have it and perhaps I'll do a review of it someday. As it appears in the original Spelljammer boxed set, though, it exists simply as a plot device for Mister Cavern.

And with that, there's a single page at the end of the chapter that has a couple of charts for rolling a random helm, information on the Ships Rating of ships given a Minor/Major helm per level of helmsman, some modifiers, and a short description of other helm types. And that's the chapter.

Next time we'll start on Chapter 3, Spacefarers. Until then, smooth sailing!
Last edited by Woot on Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Woot wrote:but at that point, you've basically thrown out most of the Age of Sail tropes
Spelljammer's pathological refusal to allow gunpowder or anything like it to touch the setting in any meaningful way meant that the Age of Sail tropes were basically DOA anyhow. You don't have cannons and flintlocks, you have bows and a reinforced ramming head. You aren't pirates of the Caribbean, you're pirates of the Mediterranean. Basically, you're Phoenician pirates, not Age of Sail pirates.

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Post by maglag »

Funny thing is that it was precisely the phoenicians thinking that rams and bows were all that mattered in naval battle was what made them get their asses kicked when the romans showed up with boarding rams and deck artillery from fire pots balls to cannons siege engines.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

maglag wrote:Funny thing is that it was precisely the phoenicians thinking that rams and bows were all that mattered in naval battle was what made them get their asses kicked when the romans showed up with boarding rams and deck artillery from fire pots balls to cannons siege engines.
I'm going to call bullshit. I mean, I could be completely wrong because I only know a little about ancient warfare, but assuming you are considering the Carthaginians to be Phoenicians, my understanding was that the Romans didn't understand ship-building, but they reverse engineered a Carthaginian ship and then outproduced them. The Romans had significantly more resources. I'm pretty sure that the Phoenicians understood ramming and boarding because Thermopylae was 480 BC and the destruction of Carthage was ~150 BC. I don't know enough to PROVE you're wrong, but if you've got facts, I'm calling you to show them.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

deaddmwalking wrote:because Thermopylae was 480 BC
That was a land battle, you're probably thinking Artemisium or Salamis there.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

Thaluikhain wrote:
deaddmwalking wrote:because Thermopylae was 480 BC
That was a land battle, you're probably thinking Artemisium or Salamis there.
Sure, but I knew that. The land-battle is notably more famous (as depicted in movies), but I think most people know that that the Athenians fought a naval battle shortly after the Spartans fought a land-battle. The point ultimately being that naval warfare involving ramming ships and boarding ships wasn't new when Carthage fell.

The most common naval tactics in the Mediterranean area at the time were ramming (triremes were equipped with a ram at the bows), or boarding by ship-borne marines (which essentially turned a sea battle into a land one).

Now, I don't know that maglag is pushing a racist narrative by describing the Carthaginians as hapless primitives who failed to understand or adapt to changing technologies, but if we don't challenge him on 'minor disregard for the facts', it's harder when there is a major transgression. Boarding ships in Mediterranean battles was a well-known tactic for longer than the United States has existed as an independent country by the time of the third Punic War. And again, I'm not an expert, so if maglag has proof for his version of the narrative, I'm open to it, but it sounds like bullshit to me.
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Post by Mord »

I'm with deaddm on the subject of maglag being wrong and will furnish additional context and wikifacts:

1) Carthage was founded as a Phoenician colony and Carthaginians were genetic descendants of Phoenicians, but if we're talking about the people who were defeated by Roman boarding ramps, their civilization was literal centuries and a continent away from anything you would call "Phoenician". Evolution happened; by the time of the Punic Wars the Carthaginians were absolutely a distinct civilization.

Carthage was founded as a Phoenician colony in 814 BC. Even during Phoenicia's colonial heyday, the heartland around Lebanon got its ass beaten repeatedly by Assyrians and Babylonians (which may actually have been the reason for all that colonial activity). Carthage and the other colonies were de jure suborinate to the Phoenician kingdom centered around Tyre, and they did pay taxes back to the homeland, but the various invasions, occupations, and rebellions back home resulted in various periods of de facto independence for the colonies.

In 539 BC, the Persians under Cyrus conquered Phoenecia and it never regained independence. Carthage signed an independent treaty with Rome thirty years later in 509 BC, indicating that Carthage had self-consciously become a power in its own right and was recognized as such by other regional powers. After Alexander's conquests in 332 BC, control of Lebanon fell to the Seleucids and its original Phoenician culture, already rife with Persian influences, was Hellenized out of existence.

So, by the outbreak of the First Punic War in 264 BC, Carthage had been politically independent of Tyre for 275 years and the homeland Phoenician civilization was well along the way of the dodo (and may indeed have already been extinct for up to 50 years). Calling the Carthaginians of the Punic Wars "Phoenicians" is less accurate than calling modern Americans "Englishmen," because at least a British government and civilization recognizably and directly descended from that of the 18th century is still dominant in the UK.

2) Prior to the First Punic War, the Roman Republic had never had a fleet, whereas the Carthaginians were the masters of the western Mediterranean. The Roman innovation of the corvus was not the new hotness in naval warfare that the stodgy old Carthaginians failed to adopt, rather, it was a desperate stopgap weapon developed specifically to leverage the Romans' only strength - infantry combat - in the naval theater against the Carthaginians' general mastery of conventional tactics. There is no other matchup of powers on the Earth of that time where the corvus would have been a reasonable or useful tool.

The Romans first used the corvus in 260 BC at the Battle of Mylae and won several victories with it thereafter, culminating with the Battle of Cape Ecnomus in 256 BC. However, as the Romans gained experience in naval combat over the course of the war, they evidently felt that they no longer needed to leverage their infantry power on the sea and thus abandoned the corvus before the war ended; there is no reference to its use in the decisive Roman victory at the Battle of the Aegates in 241 BC. The corvus was in use for only 4 years at the least, or 19 years at the most.

There's an extra twist here which goes even further against the idea that the corvus was some kind of wonder-weapon that the Carthaginians were stupid not to adopt. During the war, the Romans lost 2 entire fleets of corvus-armed battleships to storms, which may or may not speak to the corvus being unwieldy and heavy enough to interfere with steering and general maneuverability (especially in rough seas). It is apparently a disputed issue, but I think it's pretty likely on the basis of my own limited sailing experience, and would explain why the Romans would ditch the corvus despite the fact that it obviously worked. If it were just a matter of increased Roman naval expertise making the corvus unnecessary to achieve victory, that would not be a compelling reason to stop using it - why would you pass up the opportunity to combine your hard-won conventional skill with your superweapon? However, if that superweapon was just as much a liability to the Romans as it was to the Carthaginians, that would be a persuasive reason to discontinue it despite its effectiveness.

Fire pots don't appear to have been a thing prior to the Eastern Roman navy of the 500s. Fire ships have been a thing for millennia, but specifically the concept of launching or throwing specialized vessels full of oil or pitch to burn out enemy ships doesn't seem to have been something they did before the Empire split. Total War: Rome 2 includes fire pot ships, but I'mma go out on a limb here and say that's an anachronism for the sake of sexing up naval battles a little.

More generally, deck artillery was probably not a thing during the First Punic War on either side. The first reference I've been able to find to Roman use of shipboard ballistae dates to the Battle of Naulochus in 36 BC. At that battle, Agrippa's navy used ballistae to launch grapnels (called harpax) to hook and draw in enemy ships for boarding. This appears to be the first time since the Battle of Cape Ecnomus that the Romans deployed a specialized boarding device in a significant naval battle.

Based on what I've pieced together, it seems to me that Roman naval tactics didn't evolve in a unique direction - that is to say, beyond any changes disseminated broadly among all competing Mediterranean powers - for the 220 years between the abandonment of the corvus and the introduction of the harpax. Possibly this is because after the Punic and Macedonian Wars were all wrapped up in 146 BC, there really weren't any competing Mediterranean powers to speak of.

So, rather than the Roman fleet being some kind of paragon of innovation triumphing over an enemy stuck in the past, it's more likely that the Roman navy was just as conservative as the Roman people in general, punctuated by brief moments of innovation forced on them by unusual and desperate circumstances before reverting to the mean.
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Post by maglag »

Mord wrote: So, rather than the Roman fleet being some kind of paragon of innovation triumphing over an enemy stuck in the past, it's more likely that the Roman navy was just as conservative as the Roman people in general, punctuated by brief moments of innovation forced on them by unusual and desperate circumstances before reverting to the mean.
Coming up with innovations in unusual and desperate circumstances while don't getting too attached to them is the opposite of conservative.

The carthegians were indeed stuck in the past, they had centuries to evolve their phoenician piracy tactics and did nothing, then the romans beat them at their own game with a fleet a few months old and ended razing Carthage to the ground in a matter of decades.

Thus the carthageans were the conservative ones, unable to come up with any innovations at all despite unusual and desperate circumstances.

And the romans kept adapting their navy to the circumstances, new boarding gadgets kept popping up, fire balls, ballistas, you name it, whereas there was no pratical difference between a phoenician pirate and a carthagean pirate or all the other pirates hanging in the mediterranean when it came to naval warfare. And so the innovating romans gained virtually absolute control of the Mediterranean against the conservative pirates stuck with phoenician tactics.

But bigger point being, just because you don't have gunpowder doesn't mean you must be stuck with just bows and ramming speed for naval warfare. The romans proved you could pull plenty of other extremely effective tricks for ship combat.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

I'm going to mostly ignore everything you say about how innovative the Roman's were and how wrong you are about timeframes and point out that the Roman reputation is for taking anyone's ideas and using them for themselves. Like, literally copying the Carthaginian navy exactly features prominently in the historical record and utilizing Greek inventions (and so much more) are pretty well established. I'm just going to put a big asterisk around the whole argument and say 'citation needed' so if you want to use it as 'evidence' of some type of inherent cultural superiority I can come back here to rebut your points one by one. Instead I'll refer to what you claim is your actual point...
maglag wrote: But bigger point being, just because you don't have gunpowder doesn't mean you must be stuck with just bows and ramming speed for naval warfare. The romans proved you could pull plenty of other extremely effective tricks for ship combat.
So your point is you can have boarding actions (existing to and established prior to the Romans), ramming (established prior to the Romans), and launching projectiles (established prior to the Romans). Are you actually suggesting a tactic that doesn't exist? Changing cannons into ballista or vice versa does not appear to be as innovative as you think.
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Avast ye, pedantic scalawags!

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Today we'll start looking at Chapter 3: Spacefarers.

Humans

Most numerous sapients in space. They tell us that 90% of humans are free agents, not bound to a lord, mirroring the Age of Sail's early modern period replacing the feudal Middle Ages. Therefore, since this is AD&D, we naturally continue to center the human experience, which I suppose makes sense from a playability perspective. Most RPGs have humans and human cultures being the yardstick by which all others are measured, which makes things easier on Mister Cavern and the players. Still, I think they missed an opportunity here – if they'd chosen to make a different race pre-emminent in space, they could have given the game a much different flavor. (Ok, who am I kidding? It just would have been humans-in-funny-suits anyway.) Since this is AD&D 2e, Humans as a race get no goodies like other races get but have unlimited advancement in any class, and this is as true in Spelljammer as in a regular campaign.

We're told that no human groundling nations have a strong presence in space, though a number dabble, and most groundlings find stories about space adventuring to have nothing to do with their lives. We get an anecdote about a merchant landing in Waterdeep and trying to sell smoke power in bulk; the merchant's ship promptly blew up in an 'accident' and no one's tried doing so again. sigh Humans in space tend to build cities, yadda yadda yadda, and we end up learning that of the 10% of humans who aren't free agents, they tend to be dedicated to “ideas and ideals” and then we get a section on factions. Since of course, no other race has factions... WTF, Grubb?

Faith:

Faith changes in a few ways in space; people tend towards polygot or pantheistic faiths, or else a church that is widespread in space. Notable is the faith of Ptah, which is exactly what you think it is, and the Path & the Way, which is a belief system not especially described here, but is apparently divided into many different warring sects.

Military Brotherhoods:

The Company of the Chalice

Lawful & Good warriors, lead in each sphere by a paladin.

The Pragmatic Order of Thought

Nicknamed “the Pots,” a brotherhood for the neutral & chaotic good folks. Believe that all men are created equal... and mostly mean it. Idealistic and opposed to slavery. Good guys who lack organizational skills, and thus, lack the punch of the Company of the Chalice.

The Long Fangs

They're EEEEEEEEVIL! EEEEEEVIL! Dedicated to destruction & chaos, yadda yadda yadda.

The Tenth Pit

The Long Fang's not-brain-damaged older brother, smaller but better organized. Lawful evil.

The Trading Company

Staunchly neutral mercenary company, who'll hire anyone who wishes to join, and likes it's recruits just the way they are, since there's always more dogs where those come from. Charming folks.

Schools of Magic, Rogue's Galleries, Adventuring Companies, Trading Companies

Pretty much what you'd expect. Notable are the Sindiath Line, which is basically a merchant marine for the Elven Navy, and the Chainmen, who are slavers... IN... SPACE!

Other Organizations:

The Seekers are group dedicated to seeking out new knowledge and compiling it, and they have their biggest rivalry with The Xenos who are fanatical human racists who seek to enslave or destroy all nonhumans. The Xenos are also happy to deal in anti-nonhuman propaganda, which pisses the Seekers off to no end, hence the rivalry.

And that's it for the humans.

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The Elven Armadas

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The elves are the BRITISH NAVY... IN... SPACE! Essentially, there's an elven culture in space that is organized around naval lines, and views itself as a link between disparate groups of elves on various worlds through space. How useful this is to groundling nations is debatable – it certainly didn't stop the elven nations of Krynn for taking it in the shorts, for example. The SPESS ELFS keep the orcs & goblins down, and hunt pirates, but also tend to stick their pointy ears in everyone's business, so most other spacers view them as a mixed blessing.

Dwarves

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Unlike the fairly monolithic elves, the dwarves are all about each citadel or colony being it's own nation. Still, dwarves are generally on good terms with other dwarves, and have legends of some dwarven homeworld somewhere from whence spring all the various clans of dwarves.

Lizard Men

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Lizardmen in space are decendants of enslaved lizardmen who won their freedom. Lizardmen have observed that lizardman eggs incubated close to large fire bodies produce somewhat more intelligent lizardmen, so they have begun a program of intentionally stocking ships with eggs and orbiting fire bodies as a means of improving their race. AMATEUR EUGENICISTS... IN... SPACE!

I'm going to cheat and look ahead here; Lorebook talks about the cultural aspects of lizardmen, but Concordance has the actual rules for them, because of course it does. What stands out to me, here in the cozy confines of 2018, is how you can get insight into what people almost 30 years ago thought the issues were in the design of the lizardman race. Since this was a “new” race – possibly the first one designed under AD&D 2e rules - they had a reasonably wide latitude (modulo previously published material about lizardmen and Gygaxian can't-let-players-have-nice-things attitudes) to develop it.

So let's look at what they built. Since they can't avoid it, because of already published materials, lizardmen PCs get a natural AC of 5 and claw/claw/tailsmack attacks of 1d2/1d2/1d6. With the natural AC, they need to wear armor better than chainmail to get an armor bonus that replaces their natural AC. They also explicitly get no bonus to AC from high dexterity(!). They can still use their tail to attack if they are wielding weapons, but are treated as if they are using two weapons. They can advance to 12th level as fighters, 11th as thieves, 7th as clerics, and despite the fact that the Lorebook says they rarely have wizards, your PC can't be one - “there may be lizardmen wizards on some worlds, but they are not dealt with in this product.” They also can't multiclass. 60 foot infravision, a base move of 6 with a swim speed of 12 round out the class. Their starting age is 10 + 2d6, and have a max age of 350 years, so crack out those haste spells!

It's clear that the designers considered the natural AC and natural weapons to be a big deal – they're very much the core of the crunchy bits the whole race. Unlike, say, elves and dwarves, which have a long list of small bonuses they've accrued over the years, lizardmen basically just get what they've had as NPCs, and that's it. At the time, having a PC have a natural armor class was regarded as a Big Fucking Deal, and built-in natural weapons were icing on the cake. One big problem is that the lack of dex bonus. I'd imagine the designers were sitting in a room and thought to themselves, “OH MY GOD! If the player has an 18 dex, they'd have an AC of 1 – equivalent to full plate armor!” (which is something else the game had weird hangups about.) Fighters and clerics were just going to wear heavy armor eventually anyways, once they had a few gold pieces to their names. Thieves (who tend to have high dex) wear lighter armor and remain in the AC game by getting that sweet dex bonus. But the poor lizardman is basically stuck at AC 5, which makes a lizardman thief much less attractive. There's also the oversight that the lizardman has no racial thieving adjustments, which I'd guess is just a “we're new to 2e and don't give a fuck about thieves, since you're just going to play these guys as fighters anyway” oversight. In terms of the natural weapons, the 1d2/1d2/1d6 by itself is something you're probably never going to give a shit about, unless you have a very high strength. If wielding a weapon, doing 1d6 as a second attack isn't absolutely terrible, particularly if you've got a decent strength, but it's dex that negates two weapon penalties, and your “no dex bonus” rule already discourages you from bothering with a high dex. There's also the fact that if you're going to be taking the two weapon penalty anyway, you can get a better weapon than 1d6 and just use that. Being a ranger would also get around the penalty, and in fact the fact the ranger can only avoid the two weapon penalty while wearing studded leather or lighter which synergizes nicely with your natural armor, but... you can't be a ranger, so eat it.

Complete Spacefarers fixed a few of these issues. Armor worse than their natural AC provides no bonus, but they remove the “no dex adjustment” rule, though now lizardman armor costs double because of differences in lizardman physique. (Interestingly, 1993's Complete Book of Humanoids changed the rules for AC again – wearing armor that's inferior to your natural AC gives you a 1-point bonus to AC, and specifically mentions lizardmen in the example.) Lizardmen now have racial thieving adjustments, and can reach 4th level as mages, which given that they can't multi-class, falls in the “Why Even Bother?” basket.

So, to sum up, I think including lizardmen as a playable race was a fine idea, but the actual implementation was too conservative to make a really interesting race, mechanically. Still, props for the idea.

Gnomes

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Gnomes, being creatures of the living earth, rarely go into space. Except, of course, for Krynnish tinker gnomes, which add the fun of self-detonating, unreliable gadgetry to already-dangerous space travel. Much like Kender, it's something of a mystery to me as to how they haven't driven themselves to extinction, given their wildly self-destructive tendencies.

Halflings

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Like gnomes, not common in space, though some live in cities. They also sometimes get work in shipboard crews, since they only consume half the air of a human, although still requiring the same amount of food. Kender are also mentioned as being mistaken for halflings, which may be the kindest thing anyone has ever said about them.

Goblin Races
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The Goblins, Orcs, Kobolds, Ogres, etc. all get flattened down into the “Goblin Races” which have been in space for a long time, but after getting beaten by the elves in the Unhuman Wars, are no longer an organized factor in space, though obviously individuals and even small bands still exist. Rumor abound that they're rebuilding their forces somewhere, but it's for Mister Cavern to determine how true and/or important that is.

Extraplanar Beings

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There's an interesting oversight here: “Most natives of the other planes, including the various elementals, devils, daemons, archons, modrons, and slaadi, do not like being in wildspace.” Apparently the development crew hadn't gotten the “baatezu and tanar'ri” memo yet. But beyond that, the text explains that extraplanar beings tend to dislike being in wildspace, and dislike traveling in the phlogiston even more, since they can't access extradimensional space while there (since nothing can) but can be physically brought into the phlogiston.

Giants

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Giants (predictably) use more air in space, but can serve as living catapults, with 10 points of regular damage equaling 1 hull point of ship damage. Storm Giants are said to be able to leave the atmosphere of a planet for 2-20 rounds, “usually enough time to meet with a ship.” How they perform this feat, or propel themselves, or why this would be at all particularly useful is left unsaid. “Often these giants serve as guardians or wardens of planets they want the spacefaring nations to avoid” which still doesn't shed a lot of light.

Mind Flayers

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Everyone's favorite Cthulhu expy is a major force in Spelljammer. With the assistance of the Arcane, helms were developed that permit the mind flayers to use their psionic abilities to spelljam. They serve as a “affably evil” race, still brain-eating and slaving, but less awful than the neogi, for whom they occasionally act as intermediaries. Interestingly, this dynamic is at least partially reversed in the Astromundi Cluster boxed set – there, the neogi serve as the untrustworthy merchant race, and the mind flayers are the “scary, but less obviously awful than the biggest threat” race.

It's always struck me as interesting that Spelljammer decided to go with two “alien slaver races” in the setting. My guess would be that the mind flayers, being bizzare brain-eating slavers, were a natural fit, but even a couple of mind flayers can seriously fuck up a low or mid level adventuring party, so the neogi were created to be the “junior grade” bad guy race. Just a theory.

Dragons
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Dragons can fly in space, but can't spelljam, so carrying a 2-20 round air envelope doesn't let them get very far. As a result, there aren't many of them, save for the Radiant Dragons, which are native to space.

Centaurs
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There are some centaur adventurers in space, but that's about it. The book notes that the Dracons have taken an interest in centaurs, along with wemics, and that dracons regard centaurs much the way humans regard elves, though the dracons also source lots of wood for shipbuilding from them as well.

Undead

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As may be surmised, undead have a lot going for them in space. They don't need food, water or air, and as such can make an excellent skeleton crew for long voyages. :rofl:

I do have to quibble with the next bit describing undead-crewed ships, though: “If possible, the ship will use a spelljamming helm or similar construct, but just as often an undead ship will drift in space until it is contacted. Undead have a lot of time on their hands, so that the huge distances involved do not bother them.”

Consider a very short spelljamming trip: 100 million miles. This is roughly the distance between the Earth and the Sun, or Oerth and Liga. This takes one day at spelljamming speeds. A ship drifting at an SR of 1 (17 mph, ~400 miles a day) would take around 685 years to make the same journey. Even granting that undead are going to have a very different view of time, that seems like a long time for an intelligent undead to put it's plans on hold while it floats to wherever it's going. I see details like this and I have to wonder if any of the designers were familiar with calculators, which I remember as definitely being a thing in 1989.

Beyond that, the undead are pretty much what you'd expect, with a few notable points. Groups of skeletons can be folded up to become floating minefields, ghosts can't enter the phlogiston (though other undead are generally ok), mummies are a bit more common in space than you'd expect due to Ptah cultists, vampires can survive being in sight of fire bodies as long as they stay in the shade or cover up, and of course, Liches, being high-level spellcasters, can pilot spelljaming helms and are are always a bundle of laughs to fight.

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Golems

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Work great in space, since they don't breathe.

Lycanthropes

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True lycanthropes can change form whenever they feel like it, so they're fine. Infected lycanthropes tend to follow the calendar of whatever planet they were infected on. If they were instead infected in space, Mister Cavern has free reign to determine what triggers transformation: anger, blood, littering, the sight of a “full” planet, etc.

Other monsters

Basically, any sort of creature could show up in space, albeit with a few caveats: 1) Extraplanar beings won't be found in the phlogiston, 2) creatures with multiple existences in many planes (undead excepted) won't be found in the phlogiston, 3) Things that need air and nourishment will only be found in locations where those things can be had, and 4) Intelligent creatures will generally know about spelljamming; creatures with wizard or priest magic can generally drive spelljamming helms, and creatures with spell-like abilities may be able to use specialized helms, like the mind flayer's series helm.

Mention is made of an extinct race, called the Keepers or Zookeepers, which may be responsible for such similar forms of life being so widely distributed i.e. hydras on many different worlds. They serve as the extinct advanced alien McGuffins in the setting, and are suitably alien: halfling sized, no necks, three legs, barrel bodies (and presumably trilateral symmetry.)

Starbeasts

Finally, we have mention of Starbeasts: millions of miles tall creatures that, in some spheres, move of their own accord and may carry planets around. Could be an Atlas-like figure, could be 4 elephants on the back of a turtle, etc. A number of examples are given. No, you can't kill them. They're another McGuffin creature, basically, and are here because the idea of the world being carried shows up occasionally in mythology.

And with that, I'm going to call it here. The rest of chapter 3 is a series of MORMONSTEROUS CONCHPENTACLE style entries with various creatures. After that it's a short chapter 4 which talks a bit about the Known Spheres of Realmspace, Krynnspace and Greyspace, and then we're done with the Lorebook. My apologies in the lag time in getting this entry out; the last week has been unusually busy. Until next time...
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Alrighty, on the the monster entries that in most other 2nd edition products would be at the end of the book!

Arcane, The

The merchants of Venice Venus SPESS. 12-foot tall skinny blue bastards that are happy to sell ships and spelljamming gear to almost anyone, save the Neogi. Where they get all the stuff, and how they spend their money, are some of the biggest enduring mysteries of the setting. As written, they tend to have lots of guards, magic abilities and items useful for escapes, a race-wide telepathy informing them all of people who try to attack or swindle them, etc. - clearly all written with the understanding that A) players are going to try and pull jack moves on these dudes, and B) under no circumstances should you allow them to do so successfully. It's good to see murderhoboing and countermeasures against it were alive and well in 1989, I guess?

Reincarnated in 3/3.5 as the Mercane, since the word “Arcane” was already fraught with meaning in that edition. Still the same Lawful Neutral merchants in that edition, but without the focus on Spelljamming specifically, since that was no longer A Thing.

Beholder
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The regular beholder you know and love from the MUENSTEROUS COUCHPALLADIUM with added information on the Orbus, a junior grade beholder mutant used to drive beholder ships to spelljamming speed, and Hive Queen, who seeks to lead her drones to victory over all enemies.

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But is she fully-functional and anatomically correct?

Or at least, to captain her ship and keep her beholders in line so that they may commit acts of genocide over groups of beholders ever so slightly different from themselves.

Dracon
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No, wait...
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Lawful-good herd-based vegetarian dragon-centaurs. New to space, or at least this region of space, but is a pretty cool guy. Eh is curious about aleins and doesnt afraid of beholders.

Dragon, Radiant (Celestial)
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SPESS DRAGGINS!!!!111eleventyone that can reach 1400 feet in length. Comes in all flavors of alignment to better serve your Mister Cavern Player Character needs as well as your TPK needs. Can naturally live in space and spelljam. As with other dragons, has a breath weapon – glowing pulses of force, in this case – as well as perform tail slaps, and can also cause 2-20 points of indigestion damage by forcing the players to overeat chicken, if I'm understanding the “wing buffet” section correctly. Naturally, all of these attacks can fuck up ships as well, if you want to indulge in some ship-versus-sea-monster-IN-SPESS! action.

Elmarin

Living balls of St. Elmo's Fire.

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Sadly, not this

Basically an animal-intelligence fire elemental creature. Taking one into the Phlogiston is good for a laugh, particularly if you're tired of the campaign.

Ephemeral

Noncorporeal undead of people who died in the Phlogiston. Attempt to possess people and use them as hosts to return to a crystal sphere. If that happens, their host is left as a 0-intelligence vegetable, needing a wish spell to restore, because fuck you, players.

Giff

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A gif of a Giff

Mercenary hippos for a hard-on for guns and explosives. Can headbutt for 2d6 damage, which is a little much for a “love tap” but is probably not fatal to other Giff, since they're 4HD creatures. (Addressing an objection raised in the “Complete Spacefarer's” review.)

Kindori

Space whales, basically. Not terribly exciting, but thematic.

Krajen

In their immature form, barnacles that will corrode your ship's hull. In adult form, SPESS KRAKENS. More exciting than kindori and just as thematic.

Neogi

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Half spider, half moray eel slaving SPESS assholes. Noted for having Umber Hulk slaves, which helps make them considerably more formidable in combat than the neogi themselves would warrant. Great bad guys when you need to pull your punches a bit, i.e. beholders or mind flayers would TPK your party in 2 rounds.

Scavver

As the name might suggest, scavenger SPESS FISH. Comes in various sizes, colors, and hit dice, from minor nuisance to “can swallow PCs whole.”

And that's it for Chapter 3. Last Chapter is “A Brief Tour of the Known Spheres” of Krynnspace, Realmspace and Greyspace,

Before I go, though, I'd just like to post a few pictures from the books. There are a lot of neat pictures, I don't know what to call them, exactly – vignettes perhaps – that tell a story and give you an excellent sense of what this setting looks like. Here we go:

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Ahoy!

I know, it's been a while since I've posted. A combination of work & life has kept me away, but hopefully I'll be able to be a bit more frequent going forwards. Otherwise...
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The fourth and final chapter of Lorebook is “A Brief Tour of the Known Spheres” of Krynnspace, Greyspace, and Realmspace. Rather than talk about every planet mentioned, however, I'm just going to pick out a couple examples. But first, I need to define some terms.

Back at the beginning of Chapter 2, I mentioned the black sidebars. Throughout the last few chapters, the book has been discussing various small matters in the sidebars and one of these topics has been the categorization of worlds. There are four basic types, which I'm sure you can guess at if you've paid any attention to D&D cosmology, but here they are:

Earth-type are primarily rocky bodies. Can have atmospheres or not, can range from freezing to scorching, though exceptionally hot bodies blend into...

Fire-type bodies, either composed primarily of flame, or at the very least magma. Have atmospheres that are technically breathable but are also extremely hot. At the other extreme, we have...

Water-type bodies, composed primarily of water, though of course other elements may be present. Can have a wide variety of temperatures, and very cold worlds may be coated in (or entirely) ice, which may lead them to be considered earth-type. May or may no have atmospheres – in some cases, the surface of the water forms a “skin” which, when breached, takes one directly into the void. And finally...

Air-type worlds, which are primarily air or another gas – smoke, poisonous vapor, etc. May function as a mini-solar system in their own right, with masses of earth, water or fire all orbiting the center of the world, which may or may not have any material present.

And finally, in a nod towards both some sci-fi tropes and the concept of cultural relativism in categorization (is Pluto a planet? :biggrin: ) the Shou Lung have a fifth type of planet in their cosmology: the Liveworld which has at it's heart some kind of living being; often a plant. In such cases, the entire ecosystem can be understood as being aspects of a single organism. This is controversial among other spacefarers.

Now, onto the spheres themselves. All three of them ended up being covered in more depth in their own books, but the content of those books mostly follows what's stated here.

Krynnspace is described as the most primal and untouched of the spheres, with both fewer gods in the sphere but their influence being much more heavily felt. In an explanation that made me smile, the Krynnish Cataclysm is described as “the destruction of most of their civilization in what was thought to be a god-related meteor strike.” It's a charmingly naturalistic explanation of the Cataclysm in what's an otherwise very-up-it's-own-God's-asses setting. Take that, Weiss and Hickman!

Beyond Krynn itself, and the Sun, which is just described as such, the other worlds are named after various native gods (Sirrion, Reorx, Chislev, Zivilyn) who may or may not have anything to do with the worlds named after them. They tend to be what you'd expect: Reorx is a mountainous earth world infested with dwarves, etc. Nothing especially noteworthy here, though the Krynnspace book published later does complicate the solar system a bit.

Greyspace is notable in that the solar system is actually centered on Oerth itself; all other bodies in the system (the sun, Liga, included) revolve around it. Smoke powder does not function on Oerth, but does throughout the rest of the crystal sphere. Notable locations include The Grinder, an asteroid belt sphere surrounding Oerth, it's two moons, and Liga, which can be home to any number of spacefaring civilizations among the asteroids, and is suggested as a possible location for the Rock of Bral. Ginsel is a crescent shaped world, full of ruthlessly conniving civilizations similar to late Middle Ages Europe. Borka is a cluster of thousands of boulders sharing an atmosphere; it was once a planet full of goblins, orcs, etc. so the Elven Armada blew the planet up. Spectre is a flat (200 mile thick) disc world, which rotates along it's axis with respect to Oerth, so that from Oerth, it appears to “wink.”

Realmspace is home to Toril and all the tomfoolery that entails. Notable other worlds include Garden, an earth-type which is a cluster of small asteroids linked together by a common atmosphere and the roots of a huge plant, and as such is categorized by the Shou Lung as a Liveworld. Bands of pirates are said to make their bases within the twisting, maze-like structure. H'Catha is a floating disk of water, with a gigantic mountain in the center of it named the Spindle. Various beholder subspecies live here and constantly wage war for control of the Spindle.

More broadly, though, I think Spelljammer's conception of planets is a place where the designers allowed themselves to be more constrained in their thinking by both their own 20th century knowledge as well as their familiarity with the D&D rules than they could have otherwise been – recall that Jeff Grubb was responsible for 1987's Manual of the Planes. Also recall what I took to be their design goals, from back in the introduction:
Create a setting that's AD&D... IN... SPAAAAAAAAACE!
Tie existing campaign settings together without shitting on the core assumptions of any of them
Develop a coherent “fantasy physics”
Permit for a diversity of races and ships
Provide a ship to ship minigame
My first objection is that their conception of planet types seems rather uninspired. Inside of Crystal Spheres, we have 6 basic categories of items. We have Starbeasts, which are not present in all spheres (such as the three presented here) and serve a physical or mythological purpose in their spheres but generally can't be meaningfully interacted with by players. We have large living creatures, like Radiant Dragons, krajen, or the Spelljammer itself, which can be meaningfully interacted with (i.e. shot full of holes.) We have “stars”, which are scattered along the interior surface of the crystal sphere and take a wide variety of forms – giant glowing gems, portals to the Phlogiston or to a plane such as Fire or Radiance, gigantic burning towers, lights made out of the souls of the devout, etc. We have phenomena, such as clouds of freezing vapor or sargassos where no magic (including magic spelljamming helms) function. We have “space junk” that's less than 10 tons – rocks, corpses, missing socks, etc. that are too small to drop a ship from spelljamming speeds, Finally, we have planets, which for purposes of the game includes what we in the 21st century real world think of as stars.

One problem is that some types of planets become “you must be this tall” environments. If you can't cast protection from fire you're not going to be visiting any fire worlds, or if you do, you'll be warm for the rest of your life. Mister Cavern can of course waive this: “The Great Wizard Schnitzel informs you that this gemstone will protect your ship from the heat of the sun long enough for you to fetch him some Sunweed, which he needs to cast get really baked, man for your party,” in which case it's just like many other campaigns: you go where Mister Cavern decides you'll go. The same result obtains for water worlds, and so forth.

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Another problem is how generic the environments become – i.e. once you've seen one fire world, you've seen them all. Due to the nature of the world, only certain types of creatures can exist in the environment, and certainly you can mix things up a little – the sun has lots of fire elementals roaming around, whereas on a magma world the efreeti have set up various sultanates and keep azers as slaves, etc. but we're still only dealing with a few pages from the MOUSTACHIOED CARBURATOR.

Then there's a problem that most planets become The Planet of the NPCs. Reorx is full of dwarves that are having a blast mining all those mountains. And as far as we're able to determine, that's all they ever do. You can visit with them, and trade with them, and maybe even have your PC be from there if you wish. But nothing that affects the campaign happens as a result of their activities. They seem to have no plans or desires beyond engaging in day to day life. Real Shit happens on Krynn, or Oerth, or Toril, but nowhere else, and in fact, it can't, anywhere else, because the existing campaign settings are held sacrosanct. So sure, maybe the efreeti on the sun are planning on using the sun's vast area to house, train and equip huge firey armies that they'll then use to conquer the entire sphere. But that's not allowed to actually ever happen, so they might as well be hanging out smoking hookah and setting their farts in fire.

A deeper problem is that there isn't a whole lot of difference between visiting these environments and planar travel, or even travel to inhospitable locations on a single world. I defy you to tell me the difference between traveling to the sun to cut a deal with some efreeti versus using planar travel and going to the Elemental Plane of Fire to cut the same deal. There's no need to travel to a water world to fight sahaguin when you can do that from the comfort of your very own ocean depths.

A world like Garden comes off a little better. A “world” that's pieces of earth held together by a gigantic root structure definitely seems more alien, and more interesting, than what we'd find in existing D&D. Still, the notion of pirates having hidden bases within the roots of a giant space plant is functionally equivalent to the notion of pirates having hidden bases within a region of small islands. It merely turns an (effectively) 2d maze into a 3d one. While I don't believe it's the case with Garden itself, there's a suggestion that some Liveworlds might be intelligent, and could be communicated with. This is another neat idea and could become the basis for any number of adventures, but ultimately, it's not terribly different from the planet being a Starbeast: unless the players have godlike power at their disposal (and if they do, you're coloring so far outside the lines D&D draws for you you might as well just put your Player's Handbook back on the shelf) there's very little in terms of meaningful interaction that your players can have with such a being.

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It is every citizen's final duty to go into... wait, that was Yang.

A world like Ginsel presents another problem. It's got plenty of room, a D&D friendly level of technological and social sophistication, a diverse population, political intrigue – you could set a whole campaign setting there! But at that point, why don't you just run your campaign there, and ignore Spelljammer altogether? Pretty much anyone's homebrew campaign could be it's own world, floating somewhere in a Crystal Sphere. The problem then becomes, “Why leave this world?” and if you do leave, Mister Cavern is then stuck in a position where the players could very well expect every world like that to have it's own complicated set of nations, customs, religions and politics, which rapidly becomes far too much for even the ablest MC to create. The dodge to this is to “flatten” the planets, using a “planet of hats” approach: “on this world everyone's an elf, on this world, everyone's a worshipper of Thor, etc...” and at this point, the rather “flat” fire worlds, water worlds and so forth suggest themselves as easy-to-use, easy-to-digest filler planets.

A world like H'Catha is better, but even still, has a fundamental problem. It's physically quite different from most other locations. It's civilization is unlike any you might find elsewhere in D&D, with beholders being the (extremely) dominant form of local intelligent life. They have a reason for being there and not focusing their gaze(s) elsewhere: too busy warring with each other for control of the Spire. There's just one problem: FOR FUCKS SAKE IT'S FULL OF ANGRY BEHOLDERS WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU GO THERE ARE YOU FUCKING OUT OF YOUR MIND!?!?! Naturally, of course, Mister Cavern can put some item that the players absolutely, positively, have to have there, so they have no choice but to go there. At that point, though, it doesn't become much different from any other really dangerous place that no one would ever visit willingly except that the circumstances of Mister Cavern's plot railroads them into visiting.

What would I do differently, in regards to planets? Admittedly, it's a tough problem. D&D as it's usually played centers around two basic types of activity: playing the social magic teaparty game, and ganking motherfuckers and expropriating their shit. At bottom, any campaign setting needs to give you opportunities two engage in these activities. To be interesting, I'd say that any particular environment should provide opportunities to do at least one (and ideally both) of those activities, as well as being unique enough such that there's no other place quite like it, and (for at least some places) be a place that a party might want to visit without being coerced in some way. I can certainly imagine having a “planet” that is essentially some sort of magic or psionic field, but that could be difficult for players to interact with. Planets could be tied to the positive or negative material plane, or alignments, though this would probably just end up with a knock-off Planescape campaign. Instead of the four elements, planets could be tied, to greater or lesser degrees, to concepts, but this might lead to very heavily tea-partied games: “On the world of the Tangible Wish, whatever you speak becomes truth... but whatever someone else speaks also becomes Truth!” Like I said, a hard problem, and given the limitations of the AD&D rules, the existing 4 (or 5) types of planets feels uninspired, but at least they're supported by the ruleset.

And that wraps it up for the Lorebook of the Void. For my next post, I'll begin our journey through the Concordance of Arcane SPAAAAAAAAAACE! Er, Space.
angelfromanotherpin wrote: My space-castle has a moustache, your argument is invalid.
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