The Gaming Den

Quick clarification: The discussion of armor is interesting, but the 5e example is dumb. I broadly support armor providing DR and think that's a useful "you must be this tall to ride" feature. I also don't love rolling to hit, and think Gloomhaven implemented this type of DR in a clever way.

Could you expand on the Gloomhaven tip? I've seen the physical product in the LGS, but passed. I've also seen something in the works on Steam to digitize it.

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:42 am

I'd say a chunky metal breastplate is Heavy Armor that loses its DR bonus vs Electric attacks (maybe Fire, too?), while full-body leather is just Physical Light Armor. Maybe with the Dampening enhancement if it's oiled, to make the user more silent.

In my experiences with energy types vs defenses, it's most likely better to have the Electric tag itself say "ignores Damage Reduction of metal targets" so that it affects inanimate and living-iron targets as well, like golems.

Harshax wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:20 am

Could you expand on the Gloomhaven tip? I've seen the physical product in the LGS, but passed. I've also seen something in the works on Steam to digitize it.

Happy to share, I've played it nearly to death. If you'd like to do so too, there are multiple good digital implementations. The official game by Asmodee Digital is probably the way to go now, but the Tabletop Simulator mod has also worked quite well for me.

When you attack in Gloomhaven you always hit, which causes an amount of damage specified by the attack + a random amount determined by drawing a card from a deck of (nominally 20) cards in front of you. Most of the cards are (nominally) damage bonuses or penalties, but one card, the "miss", will set your damage to zero and another will double your damage value. The damage delivered to the enemy is further modified by enemy armor (subtracts its value from your attack), the pierce modifier (lets you ignore some points of enemy armor), the poisoned condition (adds one damage), and some other card/item effects. Attack riders like status conditions or pushes apply regardless of how much damage you do.

The game is tightly balanced and scaling is mostly linear in level, so the single bonus damage from poison remains relevant throughout the game and enemies mostly take 2-3 hits to knock down. (Worth noting that character damage doesn't scale all that well, so you have to get creative with items, builds and action economy as time goes on.) However, it lacks some tactical nuance because the answer to the question "what should I do this turn" is almost always "attack as hard as you can" because the game is a damage race. Still, it wrings some interesting variation from changing up player attack modifier decks and some core class mechanics.

However, the thing I like most is that there's no to-hit roll, which makes attack resolution lightning quick. I think it used to be orthodoxy around here that you needed a to-hit roll to prevent school busses full of kindergartners with sticks from killing vampires, but high damage reduction values fulfill the same role in my mind.

JonSetanta wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:12 am

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:42 am

I'd say a chunky metal breastplate is Heavy Armor that loses its DR bonus vs Electric attacks (maybe Fire, too?), while full-body leather is just Physical Light Armor. Maybe with the Dampening enhancement if it's oiled, to make the user more silent.

In my experiences with energy types vs defenses, it's most likely better to have the Electric tag itself say "ignores Damage Reduction of metal targets" so that it affects inanimate and living-iron targets as well, like golems.

This brings Diablo to mind because armor came with different levels of protection from physical, fire, lightning and ice damage. (And maybe poison reduction too? It's been a while.) I'm surprised that RPGs haven't latched onto the idea of having a small list of damage types and differentiating armor by what type of damage it is strong against. I guess 4e did it a bit by separating AC items from fort/ref/will items, but like most things 4e did, it implemented the system without grace.

Good point, defenses provided by armor types against certain energy/elements should be part of the armor properties.

One could simplify it to just Physical and Energy reductions, with lighter types having different protection from one of the other than say Full Plate.

I did this for a d20-derivative RPG I wrote, but later scrapped it in favor of just HP pools and no DR.

JonSetanta wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:12 am

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:42 am

I'd say a chunky metal breastplate is Heavy Armor that loses its DR bonus vs Electric attacks (maybe Fire, too?), while full-body leather is just Physical Light Armor. Maybe with the Dampening enhancement if it's oiled, to make the user more silent.

In my experiences with energy types vs defenses, it's most likely better to have the Electric tag itself say "ignores Damage Reduction of metal targets" so that it affects inanimate and living-iron targets as well, like golems.

Oh, fuck, Steel is actually totally neutral to Electric attacks. It's Fighting, Fire, and Ground that will apparently fuck your metal armor up.
Lord help me, for one day I will need to attempt to reconcile Pokemon Physics. This is dumber than regular physics, or even D&D physics.

pragma wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:36 am

However, the thing I like most is that there's no to-hit roll, which makes attack resolution lightning quick. I think it used to be orthodoxy around here that you needed a to-hit roll to prevent school busses full of kindergartners with sticks from killing vampires, but high damage reduction values fulfill the same role in my mind.

The reason I think it is orthodoxy to have a to-hit roll is that to-hit rolls are much easier to scale up & down in a much easier fashion, which is more necessary in a TTRPG than a board game. In a board game, the designers know what the monsters are & what the Players are in story, so it only has to scale & function to the point that the game works mechanically.

Meanwhile, in a TTRPG, the designers are going to have in mind what the monsters are & what the players are going to be doing, but you can't accurately predict all the pieces that will be used. So if vampires can be damaged by bullets, even if not in an amazing fashion & you can never miss outside specific circumstances, then arming toddlers with rifles becomes a valid strategy. Also, sometimes you want to have characters who are weaker than a target be able to try for a period of time to survive, which never being able to miss can stop. Little Timmy, the NPC the PCs are trying to protect is instant dead when an enemy has him within sight as they can 100% blow his brains out because misses aren't part of the system. Never being able to miss & using damage reduction to control it can break down when you are operating at long ranges, as anybody can be really good at sniping.

I'm sure more & better examples could be given, but not being able to miss as a reasonably calculated possibility in a TTRPG demolishes most attempts at creating an simulationist experience. While it can definitely work (I've experimented with no miss systems & had enjoyable results), it can be very limiting to the narrative and an game-world experience, hence its better to err on the side of a hit roll because it scales better narratively in more directions & for more experiences.

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:22 pm

Oh, fuck, Steel is actually totally neutral to Electric attacks. It's Fighting, Fire, and Ground that will apparently fuck your metal armor up.
Lord help me, for one day I will need to attempt to reconcile Pokemon Physics. This is dumber than regular physics, or even D&D physics.

The organic bearer of steel plate will get zapped, though.

Steel plate is a pretty good defense against electricity, steel is more conductive than flesh so the electricity goes through the plate instead of through your organs.

Lord Charlemagne wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:56 pm

Little Timmy, the NPC the PCs are trying to protect is instant dead when an enemy has him within sight as they can 100% blow his brains out because misses aren't part of the system.

Having some sort of defense action to negate some number of incoming attacks would go a long way, as would giving some players the option to provide cover or otherwise redirect attacks to themselves. If your combat system just lines up the teams like Final Fantasy or Hearthstone and lets everyone dogpile anyone, yeah, Timmy's dead and that's just a scenario your game doesn't handle well.

Zaranthan wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:03 am

Having some sort of defense action to negate some number of incoming attacks would go a long way, as would giving some players the option to provide cover or otherwise redirect attacks to themselves. If your combat system just lines up the teams like Final Fantasy or Hearthstone and lets everyone dogpile anyone, yeah, Timmy's dead and that's just a scenario your game doesn't handle well.

1. Either apply a miss chance based on distance, or reserve attack rolls for ranged attacks only, letting melee strikes hit except for whatever conceal/cover/dodge applies.
2. Dodge roll. This has been done in so many ways over dozens of RPGs, I really don't know where to start with a DnD homebrew, but something like a Reflex save against the damage would not even require an opposing attack vs AC.
3. Parry. More of a wushu/anime thing, the defender is so perceptive, fast, and skilled they cut bullets in half or just swat them away.
A variant of this is outright catching them, such as the Final Boss in Kung Fu Hustle.

People like Reckless Strike/Power Attack. They want to be able to put themselves at great personal risk to be relatively certain to hit, or to swing wildly and deal extra damage.

Being able to play with the TO HIT probability is another lever to adjust the game. And it's a powerful lever.

If you're rolling against an enemy that you can't miss, you could potentially accept some penalties so you STILL can't miss, but you get benefits like extra damage. That actually works organically to help ensure you get outcomes that are appropriate to your genre.

If you assume that 100% of attacks are hits, but some are 1/2x, 1x, 2x or 3x damage, you have to have a way of determining which ones are more or less powerful. If that isn't dependent on armor or qualities of the target (dexterity, size, hide, etc) it will be damaging from a simulationist point of view.

Well, if a player is looking to do burst damage, and Accuracy doesn't exist anymore, another resource has to be spent.

Feat tax.
Spell slots (5e paladin)
HP
Fatigue
Ability Score damage


EDIT: In computer/console games such as Dungeon Crawl, Darkstone, Warcraft 1 and 2, there's also attack speed.
The less damage you deal per blow, the more likely the character gets to go first (not sure if this is from being a speedy fighter or inherent weapon property) and damage more often each round.