Moments when a piece of entertainment completely lost you.

[PhoneLobster]

I was basically pointing out your fallacy that you have seen everything.

Which proves you are just being an idiot and evading all discussion of the supposed qualities of Cowboy Bebop.

Of course I haven't LITERALLY seen everything. But hey. If you pretend that is literally true and that it is the linchpin of my opinion against Cowboy Bebop then you might just have a winning argument. IN MORON LAND.

YOu said it was a psychotic pace but Bebop when it's set to a trumpet or horn and drums and going at 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-1 and that beat increasingly seems psychotic but it has rhythm and flow.

Can you read for dick already? I was discussing pacing in relation to the STORY, which I largely described as drudgingly slow with only MOMENTS of rapid psycho murder sprees. The Jazz is just SHIT MUSIC, I have no comments on the pacing of the musical rythm because all I have to say about it is that it was SHIT MUSIC.

Samurai Champloo.

It seems less popular. Perhaps everyone learnt the same lesson I did from Cowboy Bebop and decided to avoid it.

Geez, PL. I didn't know you hated Jazz so much.

Yes. I do. Jazz is largely bad music. Like any Genre there are a few good bits. However Jazz is a lot like Modern Art. The people who are "into the scene" like the worst of it rather than the best of it, regarding the few good pieces as populist trash.

Those sorts of wanky attitudes are exactly what is adopted in Cowboy Bebop that I found especially offensive. The self declaration as a superior and unique art form when what they were doing was largely unoriginal and uninteresting.

As for why I like Cowboy Bebop...

Actually a mildly sensible defense rather than the irrelevant idiocy of Cynic.

Personally I disagree on basically every point. I found the setting dry and sterile, the fight scenes dull, the aesthetics ugly and angular, didn't even notice the plot scale one way or another and just plain disliked the genre and style of the stories told.

But all that is largely personal opinion so I'll give you all that as an agree to disagree thing no problem.

I'll even agree that the technical quality of the animation and dubbing was pretty good.

I'm just sad they wasted the skill on something I really didn't like. I blame the creator for being a Jazz wanker, everything else clearly stems from that.

[TOZ]

Which you apparently cannot explain.

I can explain and to some extent justify my position.

Why can't you explain or justify yours?

Mostly because I'm being lazy. I asked because I was curious why you didn't like it. I'll try to explain what I enjoy in it.

To start, I don't know what constitutes a spagetti western. Haven't watched most of the examples given here, so I'll have to google it to find out.

As for Cowboy Bebop, I won't deny that I really have no taste in entertainment. When I first started receiving an income that wasn't from my parents, I went pretty nuts. I turned my nose up at most television programming and just bought DVDs, mostly anime since I had been wanting to get into it for awhile before this. So I just about bought anything that looked shiny. I like to think I'm a little discerning nowadays, but oh well.

So Cowboy Bebop was one of the better titles. Sure, the characters are anime cliches, but the animation is stylish, and you don't have to follow the series to enjoy an episode. Each story is pretty well contained, and not limited to just one style. The episode about the escaped lab experiment guy is a good example.

I'm pretty much on the same page as Virgil, just without ever having thought about it that far. I enjoy the fight scenes, and the character antics make me chuckle. I know none of this really defends the show, but then, I just enjoy it without delving into it too much.

All I really wanted was to know why you didn't like it. I'm not trying to say it is a great show, just that I enjoyed it. Guess I just fit the Paizil mold on this one, no logic etc.

[Cynic]

PL: It's retarded the way you keep picking on the jazz and then go on to say that the creator is a jazz wanker when obviously all he seems to have done is create a show that matches the style with the music. You have slow jazz and fast jazz. I just gave an example of fast jazz.

I also gave an example of him doing a show that wasn't him being a jazz wanker. If you want to call him being a snobbish elite bastard because he's got spinning rims on his car and his suspension's gonna be shot all to hell because his stupid chevy nova with the metal top cut off is bouncing down the street with dre and snoop dogg blaring with the bass pumped to unbearable levels. Then I suppose, he is a fvcking wanker?

[PhoneLobster]

to say that the creator is a jazz wanker when obviously all he seems to have done is create a show that matches the style with the music

He declares his own show a revolutionary new media during it's cut to commercial break.

The show is NAMED "Bebop".

Each individual episode is instead called a "Session".

There is plenty more but that's Jazz wanking with Jizz all over your fan boy face right there.

[Username17]

So um... you don't like jazz?

As it happens, I like jazz. It is my theory that you don't like jazz because you are a square.

-Username17

[Count Arioch the 28th]

White people love jazz.

[Crissa]

More perhaps, PL doesn't like art, of which Jazz is.

I loved Samurai Champloo for the history lessons in it. It was awesomely subversive.

-Crissa

[PhoneLobster]

More perhaps, PL doesn't like art, of which Jazz is.

Jazz is the modern art of music.

So not actual art except by the definition of a circle of elite fops with no real taste.

I've studied art, I've created art, I've traveled the world and seen many great art galleries and pieces of art, I know professional artists of several different forms and almost everyone else I know seems to teach art. Hell I even grew up in a small independent art gallery. Hell. I've even taught a couple of lessons within one or two fields of art.

And from that I've learned there are two basic definitions of art.

What is beautiful, or what is in fashion.

Jazz is just something that is "in" or fashionable with certain circles. With the rare individual exception it has no actual merits.

Without it's establishment as a "legitimate" genre and it's patrons rabid unthinking support most Jazz pieces would individually be regarded as bad music. Much like many modern art pieces wouldn't even be recognized as an attempt at art unless you put it on a pedestal in a gallery and get an art collector to point at it.

Also, damn right Count.

[Cynic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRBf3Rox-fI - The Brain and flute using a EEG


http://billtmiller.com/neptune/neptune_vid.htm - Penetrating Gaze by the Neptunes - they build guitars out of fucked up things and play them creating crazy sounds....


Aphex Twins...

I'm done.

Above is modern art music. . --- Also pay attention other people's entire posts next time.

[shau]

I am trying to remember if PL actually likes anything or, failing that, has failed to have a violent hatred for anything, and I am coming up blank.

Horses maybe?

[virgil]

A time back, when we argued over the quality of Star Wars, he used a lot less vitriol than I've seen come out of him for other arguments. From that and his not shooting down my reasons for liking Bebop, instead having a civil acknowledgement of it being a difference of opinion, I'd say he doesn't seem to hate me. ;P

Now, there's one thing, it's easier to disagree than it is to agree. I don't create threads for the purpose of singing accolades, I create threads to complain or to ask questions. I don't contribute anything when I respond to a post with "ayup, that is cool", so I avoid doing so. I think you get the idea.

Meanwhile, on this thread's original purpose...Naruto's gotten disgusting with the latest actions of the villain Pain, and I think I may just drop the whole series. Yes, it's obviously been going downhill and I've got entirely too much patience, but it's finally too much.

[Murtak]

Yes. I do. Jazz is largely bad music. Like any Genre there are a few good bits. However Jazz is a lot like Modern Art. The people who are "into the scene" like the worst of it rather than the best of it, regarding the few good pieces as populist trash.

How does that differs from any other kind of music? Some of my friends listen to a lot of metal and, exactly like your jazz example, they like stuff I find to be horrible and dismiss most of what I liked initially as "populist trash". My sister is the same, except with her it is hardcore punk. Another of my friends is the same, except with EBM.

I suspect we are all like this and most, if not all, music styles are actually an acquired taste. That said, 99% of all Jazz makes me want to put my foot through the speakers. The rare pieces I can listen to are great though.

[Lago PARANOIA]

A time back, when we argued over the quality of Star Wars, he used a lot less vitriol than I've seen come out of him for other arguments. From that and his not shooting down my reasons for liking Bebop, instead having a civil acknowledgement of it being a difference of opinion, I'd say he doesn't seem to hate me. ;P

Now, there's one thing, it's easier to disagree than it is to agree. I don't create threads for the purpose of singing accolades, I create threads to complain or to ask questions. I don't contribute anything when I respond to a post with "ayup, that is cool", so I avoid doing so. I think you get the idea.

Meanwhile, on this thread's original purpose...Naruto's gotten disgusting with the latest actions of the villain Pain, and I think I may just drop the whole series. Yes, it's obviously been going downhill and I've got entirely too much patience, but it's finally too much.

Naruto was never really very good, like Bleach, but the things it did do well it did do well.

I've been considering dropping it for awhile now even before the Pain arc, because it was obvious that the manga lost its message and became an Akatsuki/Sasuke wankfest. But I kept reading and reading and hoping for the big payoff (though the Itachi plot twist almost caused me to give it up entirely) And it started off really good, too, then Naruto arrived and...

Well, chapters 447 to 450 happened. Those chaptrs without a doubt will live in complete infamy. There's so many goddamn things wrong with what went on that I could write an essay on how retarded it is.

And you know what? There's absolutely no reason to continue reading it now. The only villain left is Madara who, aside from being an Uchiha, has no chops whatsoever. The idea behind his character is sound but the author completely failed to make him threatening or even competent. The author has absolutely no interest in developing established characters, using them only for fanservice, and absolutely refuses to let Naruto or Sakura grow.

[Koumei]

I might have to end this discussion about Buffy and Space Whores to tell you how much I despise THAT god damn terrible show instead.

I'd be interested in that viewpoint.

Every time PL complains about something, I just remind myself that he has terrible taste in everything. Like, "things PL doesn't like" is a recommendation of quality.

I'm like that with JE.

[Cynic]

You know what I really hate! Dying authors! That's the most fucked up thing, innit? Well, It's not dying authors authors really. It's the stories created by them.
These writers who create these intrinsically in-depth and connected settings and stories that stretch out over what may seem like infinity in the fictional metaverse and our universe and if you start reading them when the first book came out, you can't wait for the next and next. It might sometimes stretch out past your lifetime.As happened as Stephen King puts in every Dark tower introduction. THe DT books have ended but he still makes comics now and writes short stories and still beats that dead horse. he can't let it go. Apparently all his books were tied into that universe as a tangent. But yes that means it took him over 30 years to write and all the tie in novels. A lot happens in that time.

Take the Dune series by Frank Herbert. Only 6 novels and one of them is 200 pages in length compared to the 600-700 of the others. Which is okay but I'm just illustrating the point. But he left the story completely untold. The Dune universe is a space opera that spans about 5000 years and yet he left it unfinished and we had to wait for someone to come by...oh, wait for it, oh, his son found his notes a DECADE after his death. Hey, look, I might have some money grubbin to do. what might my father have left me. Hmm, a phone book. What's this. Kevin J. ANderson's name. he writes in other universes a lot. awesome! let me call him.

Need I mention Tolkien? He finished the story. But Silmarrion while beautiful for Christopher's time and effort and for his father and son's skill show show how it to be unfinished in itself and really there was no reason for it to be published. Especially a 12 part volume as christpher put out. that was just ridiculous... that was just money grubbing.

let's get to even more shitty shit.

Wheel of Time - While I kinda forgot about it and lost interest after book three in itself, I kept telling myself, I would go back and read it and finish it some day. But, of course, Robert Jordan, had invested a lot of time and effort into his world like all the other authors above, and unfortunately he was old or he was sick and he died. I feel sorry for that. But now I can't finish the series. I refuse to finish the series with another author even though they say they have "notes" and the new author was chosen by Jordan himself. I don't care...

You will note that the above all authors and books are all fantasy and science fiction. So let us go to something that is not either.

Norman Mailer and his epic and what I would consider his magnum opus "Harlot's Ghost" which is the story of the CIA which is supposed to be half fictional and comes in at 1350 pages and ends with To be continued and this was in 1965. He died last year and the bastard never finished it. He is the only one of all the authors above I am truly angry at. Because his book and he were both entertainment. Here is to Mailer. To Norman. Here is hoping, and I shudder at the thought, Tom Wolfe or Joan Didion find his notes for Harlot's Grave...

[Maxus]

Well, in defense of Robert Jordan, he had the benefit of *knowing* he was dying. I've heard he spent a lot of time scribbling notes for how things would come out. So that's plausible. I mean, he knew he was terminally ill and he took steps.

[Koumei]

I was going to start reading the WoT, but it lost me before I started, because basically there were two influencing schools of thought:

1. "He starts a story about two guys, and by third book they're forgotten because it's gone on tangents about all the NPCs they meet, and all of the supporting cast that THEY meet, and it ends up being a million loose threads about a million people."

2. Apparently he was really big on misogyny and had issues with women, and it shows. I was only shown some excerpts, so it seriously could be just these few instances, maybe even "things were really messed up in this city because..." but not from how I hear it.

So it's probably a good thing that I didn't read it and get hooked and wait for the last book that may or may not be any good.

[Cynic]

Well, in defense of Robert Jordan, he had the benefit of *knowing* he was dying. I've heard he spent a lot of time scribbling notes for how things would come out. So that's plausible. I mean, he knew he was terminally ill and he took steps.

WHich is true or he could have finished a book in the same time?

Just saying? Maybe I"m just being a grouch. It's just that when such immersive worlds are set up and often times it takes 2, 3 years between books, many rabid fans/otakus/whatevers re-read the entire seriesso they can gush in excitement over cookies and wine coolers or even people like who just don't remember the stuff who might reread it because I am completely forgetful while pumping down mugs of the local bar's best. Yes, that is what makes me look tough, a paperback of Wheel of time while pumping back artois or shiner or guinnes with the Devils getting crushed in the background. But after this ritual, when you know the author's nuances, suddenly this new person comes up and boom your expectations are blown out of the water. and it's not Jordancity. It's time for GlenFidditch and not Pabst Blue. You read 100 pages over and over while you ament the fact that you bought this book. You haven't heard that Jordan is dead. You look at the cover. it hits you. It says that it is a WoT book but it aint byt Jordan. it's by a McGuffin.

Where's the fireplace you wonder?

[erik]

I kinda liked the second generation (author that is) prequels to the dune series. I have heard more hate for the later dune sequels than Frank Herb's son's works. Hrm.

My beef with dying authors would start with Robert E Howard (Conan, Solomon Kane). He died way too young and early into his writing career.

As for Ro-Jo his death was possibly the biggest blessing his story could hope for. It was getting out of control and very unentertaining. Only once he got a proper deadline did things begin coming together.

[Lago PARANOIA]

It's been about eight years since then but I realized that all that time ISN'T ENOUGH TO MAKE THE HURTING OF TOM SAWYER HIJACKING THE PLOT STOP.

[zeruslord]

PL, have you ever listened to any jazz other than the stuff in Cowboy Bebop? Because I can agree with you on the music in that show mostly being shitty jazz, but there's other stuff out there that's truly brilliant.

[Cynic]

It's been about eight years since then but I realized that all that time ISN'T ENOUGH TO MAKE THE HURTING OF TOM SAWYER HIJACKING THE PLOT STOP.

Fvcking Twain. Can't you leave at least one book without Sawyer in it for a quarter the story ~_~.

His last unfinished novel was also Huck Finn and sawyer based actually. Now that you brought it up. I have my anthology in front of me.

It's basically called Schoolhouse Hill and it's a story about Huck & Sawyer and their zany adventures w/ Satan himself....

-_-

[Lago PARANOIA]

Hey, I don't have a problem with Tom Sawyer. I really don't.

I do have a problem though with how that motherfucker completely undid all of Huckleberry Finn's character development in what was previously one of the best books I have ever read in my life.

The escape arc hurt me deep. I mean midichlorian deep. What the hell was he thinking?!

[Neeeek]

Hey, I don't have a problem with Tom Sawyer. I really don't.

I do have a problem though with how that motherfucker completely undid all of Huckleberry Finn's character development in what was previously one of the best books I have ever read in my life.

The escape arc hurt me deep. I mean midichlorian deep. What the hell was he thinking?!

Indeed. The first 2/3s of Huck Finn are arguably the best book ever written. The amount of suck Sawyer entered into the book was insanely evil.

[Lago PARANOIA]

So...

I don't read For Better or For Worse, but what exactly was up with all of the Nerd Rage the past couple of years over Anthony? I mean, you hear language thrown at him people usually reserve for Wesley or Dulcy the Dragon or Elmira.