ideas that need to go away

[RadiantPhoenix]

What about armor?

Well, if you're someone who uses armor, then you should be able to at least use a wide variety of it, so whether you find a Chain Mail of Fire Resistance or a Full Plate of Heavy fortification, or even something exotic like a Reinforced Tuxedo of Magic Resistance in your latest treasure haul shouldn't really be something you need to flip out about.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Maj: Yes. Those kind of things should go away from the game entirely. If you find a bow or a spatha or a boomerang you should just flat-out become proficient at it without too much hassle. And there's certainly none of that crap about 'epic sword mastery' or whatever the fuck.

That's not true. The range of useful magic items is quite big for every character.

That doesn't mean shit. While the number of trash drops for magical items in D&D is surprisingly high, there are still some magical items for whatever reason a player will prefer more than others. If you give people free and unlimited choice you get repeats and people falling into patterns. Which sucks the coolness out of them.

Now, now allowing characters to transform +5 Flaming Shock Frost Javelins into +5 Flaming Shock Frost Crossbows is a totally different issue. You don't gain a lot of surprise out of that assuming that the system is still mostly random; the real point of not allowing that mechanic is to unhook players from their shitty outdated character concepts.

[Seerow]

Maj: Yes. Those kind of things should go away from the game entirely. If you find a bow or a spatha or a boomerang you should just flat-out become proficient at it without too much hassle. And there's certainly none of that crap about 'epic sword mastery' or whatever the fuck.

That's not true. The range of useful magic items is quite big for every character.

That doesn't mean shit. While the number of trash drops for magical items in D&D is surprisingly high, there are still some magical items for whatever reason a player will prefer more than others. If you give people free and unlimited choice you get repeats and people falling into patterns. Which sucks the coolness out of them.

Now, now allowing characters to transform +5 Flaming Shock Frost Javelins into +5 Flaming Shock Frost Crossbows is a totally different issue. You don't gain a lot of surprise out of that assuming that the system is still mostly random; the real point of not allowing that mechanic is to unhook players from their shitty outdated character concepts.

And who are you to tell any player their character concept is shitty and outdated, and they shouldn't be allowed to use the weapon they want?

Seriously what kind of game designer wants to tell a not-insignificant portion of their player base that they are playing the game wrong.

[Lago PARANOIA]

What kind of stupid ass question is that? A game with escalating challenges by definition tells players that certain tactics and builds are shitty and fall behind and/or decrease in effect so much that they might as well not even be there.

[Stubbazubba]

I still think that it's both bogus and sad that the only way Harry Potter or Batman or Green Lantern will only use an Excalibur, Iron Man suit, or Flying Carpet is if they get to reforge them into a magic wand, utility belt, or rocket boots.

I don't think Green Lantern would find much use for rocket boots.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I meant to say Green Arrow. Whoops.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Batman would just need to repaint the Iron Man suit, IMO.

[Fuchs]

Yeah, but in such a world, I should be able to trade the fucking glowing poison bow I got from fighting snake men for a flaming spear the other guy got from fighting salamanders.

Especially if we all got multiples of the things because we fought a lot of those.

And sometimes you find stuff they got when tehy fought others.

You're allowed to try. And the die roll should be open and fair. But if there isn't someone in your neighborhood who has a flaming spear to trade for your extra magic bow, then you don't fucking get one. Furthermore, if your last session ended and you were still in the middle of the fucking snake temple, you don't get to go on a shopping trip before next session.

If you're in a world that is persistently real and magic items are rare and special, then you have to do things in that world if you want one in particular. Ask around. Go on a quest to go get a magic item you want to have. Don't wander around in the woods and expect an upgrade of whatever you happen to be using to drop off a bear, because that is fucking stupid.

-Username17

Once you leave the mudfarmer levels that shouldn't be too hard, and once you can planewalk only the most assholish gygaxian DMs will insist that you can't trade your bow for a sword or whatever else is useful.

[Fuchs]

Now, now allowing characters to transform +5 Flaming Shock Frost Javelins into +5 Flaming Shock Frost Crossbows is a totally different issue. You don't gain a lot of surprise out of that assuming that the system is still mostly random; the real point of not allowing that mechanic is to unhook players from their shitty outdated character concepts.

See, that's your asshole attitude again: If you don't want a concept in your game, do not permit from the start. Don't pull some gygax shit by letting them play their swashbuckler, then force them to change in the game.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Fuchs, thanks for explaining in an excellent if completely unaware way why there should be minimal if any player or DM input into the magical item acquisition system if you want magical items to be special.

Are you even listening to yourself? If you can force certain drops through mechanics or roleplay then magical items cease to be special. People just come to expect a particular item and then just resign themselves to doing the treasure dance every now and then. And if you don't think that magical items should be special, why not just cut out the middleman and give the baby his level-appropriate bottle rather than risking Jozan throwing a tantrum and derailing the game until he gets his +3 Holy Mace?

See, that's your asshole attitude again: If you don't want a concept in your game, do not permit from the start. Don't pull some gygax shit by letting them play their swashbuckler, then force them to change in the game.

No one's being forced to change anything. I'm not advocating the 2E D&D system where if you don't have a magical weapon your advancement stalls out. The system should be designed and balanced on the assumption that no one has a magical item (or rather more than some flavor-based absolute minimum like a +1 sword at level 16/20) in the first place.

[shadzar]

I still think that it's both bogus and sad that the only way Harry Potter or Batman or Green Lantern will only use an Excalibur, Iron Man suit, or Flying Carpet is if they get to reforge them into a magic wand, utility belt, or rocket boots.

Perhaps my knowledge of D&D is outdated, but aren't there things like weapon proficiencies and such? Don't you actually get penalized for using things you're not proficient with?

completely optional in ANY edition. use the optional rules you get bonuses for using your proficient weapon, and penalties for using others. dont use the optional rules, you can use anything you damn well see fit and pick up within your class allowances.

[shadzar]

Now, now allowing characters to transform +5 Flaming Shock Frost Javelins into +5 Flaming Shock Frost Crossbows is a totally different issue. You don't gain a lot of surprise out of that assuming that the system is still mostly random; the real point of not allowing that mechanic is to unhook players from their shitty outdated character concepts.

See, that's your asshole attitude again: If you don't want a concept in your game, do not permit from the start. Don't pull some gygax shit by letting them play their swashbuckler, then force them to change in the game.

there is you needing a babysitter again.

again weapon proficiencies are completely optional. know your kit before using it, if it will have some kind of hindrance then you accept that why YOU, the player choose the kit.

dont blame the DM for being nice enough to let you use a kit, then bitch at him for not pampering you once you have it.

[shadzar]

I'm not advocating the 2E D&D system where if you don't have a magical weapon your advancement stalls out. The system should be designed and balanced on the assumption that no one has a magical item (or rather more than some flavor-based absolute minimum like a +1 sword at level 16/20) in the first place.

hate to break it to you, but 2nd edition didnt rely on the players having a magic item, nor did advancement stall out because you did not have one. at least read the books to know what you are talking about before opening your mouth.

[Fuchs]

Fuchs, thanks for explaining in an excellent if completely unaware way why there should be minimal if any player or DM input into the magical item acquisition system if you want magical items to be special.

There are tons of magic items, it's not too much to ask of a DM to pick useful and wanted stuff from the wide range that's there. There's a ton of fun and useful items for every character concept, why should the DM be an asshole and insist on the die roll picking crap stuff no one wants?

Magic items are not special if half the stuff you get is crap and half of the rest you don't really want. Some, few magic items are special that way. The rest is, to use the MMO term, "vendor fodder". And many of us who play or played MMOGs are sick of playing the loot lottery.

"Hey, I want to fight with swords - long sword or bastard Sword" is not "I want a +3 flaming long sword or bust". It just means "Hey, DM, if you pick a magic weapon, don't bother with non-swords if it's for me."

Really, what the fuck is wrong with allowing players - through wishlist or in game actions such as trade or comissions or questing - to get stuff they want, instead of stuff they don't want to use?

Newsflash: Not everyone is as stupid to think you need to suffer first before you can appreciate fun.

[shadzar]

Fuchs, thanks for explaining in an excellent if completely unaware way why there should be minimal if any player or DM input into the magical item acquisition system if you want magical items to be special.

There are tons of magic items, it's not too much to ask of a DM to pick useful and wanted stuff from the wide range that's there. There's a ton of fun and useful items for every character concept, why should the DM be an asshole and insist on the die roll picking crap stuff no one wants?

Magic items are not special if half the stuff you get is crap and half of the rest you don't really want. Some, few magic items are special that way. The rest is, to use the MMO term, "vendor fodder". And many of us who play or played MMOGs are sick of playing the loot lottery.

"Hey, I want to fight with swords - long sword or bastard Sword" is not "I want a +3 flaming long sword or bust". It just means "Hey, DM, if you pick a magic weapon, don't bother with non-swords if it's for me."

Really, what the fuck is wrong with allowing players - through wishlist or in game actions such as trade or comissions or questing - to get stuff they want, instead of stuff they don't want to use?

Newsflash: Not everyone is as stupid to think you need to suffer first before you can appreciate fun.

low magic worlds with no magick mart. you have obviously never played this way and been spoonfed throughout gaming. likely coming to D&D from a video game.

your self-center4ed attitude also shows why a DM might be an ass to you since you want to be an ass to others thinking they exist at the game to serve YO to have fun and ONLY YOU are allowed to have fun.

don't bother with non-swords if it's for me

treasure isnt placed anywhere for Fuchs.. it exists for whoever finds it. If Fuchs is lucky enough to acquire some, then that is a part of D&D to figure out what to do with the treasure found.

managing your character is a part of playing it. otherwise get an accountant henchman, because someone in the game has to do it.

every post made by you is all ME ME ME.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

And every post Shadzar makes is "DUR DUR DUR".

[RadiantPhoenix]

"Hey, DM, if you pick a magic weapon, don't bother with non-swords if it's for me."

I think you're missing the whole point of random or procedurally generated treasure. Mister Cavern doesn't 'pick' a magic weapon under such systems, he looks up a result on a table, whether it's random or a function of exactly what you're fighting, and maybe that's a sword, or maybe it's an Apparatus of Kwalish.

[Lago PARANOIA]

There's a ton of fun and useful items for every character concept, why should the DM be an asshole and insist on the die roll picking crap stuff no one wants?

The same reason why the DM rolls to-hit rather than declaring whether an attack hit or missed. A rule that allows a DM to declare that an attack missed even if it really hit would be incredibly disruptive to the game for the exact same reason as allowing a DM the discretion to change their treasure roll of a Life Drinker Battleaxe to Holy Avenger if the player looks disappointed. It's best just to tie the DM's hands in the first place.

Really, what the fuck is wrong with allowing players - through wishlist or in game actions such as trade or comissions or questing - to get stuff they want, instead of stuff they don't want to use?

Because once again, in order to make getting a treasure feel special there has to be a chance (imagined or not) of not getting it. Because of the mechanics of TTRPGs you can't resort to tricks like being coy with a Christmas Wishlist or boxing presents or hoping that a set of commercials will change the wishlist desirability order like they do in real life.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

A world in which you fight snake men with glowing poison bows and then you don't get glowing poison bows is a world that is not persistently real. That is the 4e world. That is the Diablo II world. That is not a world that has any interactivity or verisimilitude. If you fight enemies with poison bows, you get a poison fucking bow. That is how it fucking works.

The Orcs have whatever fits the idiom of the Orcs. Then you work it into your own idiom after you beat them up and take their stuff. Their stuff. The shit they actually fucking had when you fought them. You do not beat up a bunch of Orcs with black halberds and have them drop a flaming mace. You do not kill a swarm of demon bees and have them drop a suit of platemail. The stuff the enemy actually has is the stuff you actually get, because the "loot screen" is part of the same persistent world as the "combat screen". Because we are fucking roleplaying in a fucking fantasy world, and we are not playing a fucking computer game.

-Username17

This point is well taken, but no one's suggesting that monsters not drop items they were using. Tailoring treasure to the party means tailoring encounters to the party from the ground up, but you do that anyway.

[shadzar]

This point is well taken, but no one's suggesting that monsters not drop items they were using. Tailoring treasure to the party means tailoring encounters to the party from the ground up, but you do that anyway.

but just because Fuchs wants to be uber-raper man, doesnt mean the encounter is going to have an orc using a rapier.

Thog: me use pointy stick pick my teeth then throw it away, but where me sword at?

tailoring encounters to the party, then breaks the worlds internal consistency ever more, when you create 4th edition. create exists because PC wants to fight it.

that is jsut bad world design, suggested by 4th edition and its ilk. the encounters should make sense WHY they are there, not jsut throw a level 5 brute at the party where it doesnt have room to move or fight, because it is level appropriate.... and then give him a rapier so Fuchs can have it after, even though this creature not anyone in the surrounding area would know how to use or make a rapier...so any found SHOULD have been melted down to something else for the metal in it, but somehow it is there JUST FOR FUCHS to collect it.

[ishy]

So why do we have different stats for different weapons anyway? Why not just say that all piercing melee weapons work exactly the same and make them all a role-playing choice, and perhaps make all magic weapons able to change into a different kind of weapon for a specific user.

[Seerow]

This point is well taken, but no one's suggesting that monsters not drop items they were using. Tailoring treasure to the party means tailoring encounters to the party from the ground up, but you do that anyway.

but just because Fuchs wants to be uber-raper man, doesnt mean the encounter is going to have an orc using a rapier.

Thog: me use pointy stick pick my teeth then throw it away, but where me sword at?

tailoring encounters to the party, then breaks the worlds internal consistency ever more, when you create 4th edition. create exists because PC wants to fight it.

that is jsut bad world design, suggested by 4th edition and its ilk. the encounters should make sense WHY they are there, not jsut throw a level 5 brute at the party where it doesnt have room to move or fight, because it is level appropriate.... and then give him a rapier so Fuchs can have it after, even though this creature not anyone in the surrounding area would know how to use or make a rapier...so any found SHOULD have been melted down to something else for the metal in it, but somehow it is there JUST FOR FUCHS to collect it.

Okay, so what's your problem with said brute orc having something like a keen flaming burst axe, and Fuchs looting it and transfering that enchantment to a rapier because he prefers the rapier?



Because while I'm not sure you specifically have said you are against that, I do know that in this thread at least Lago has said he doesn't want people doing that, because he personally thinks a character concept involving a specific weapon type is stupid. I consider that kind of thinking to be pretty disingenuous and honestly a very petty mindset for anyone who is designing any game. If someone wants to stick with using one type of weapon, that should be an option for them. I don't think anyone is really suggesting that arrow demons should start dropping spiked chains instead of longbows, or orcs should start carrying rapiers and daggers, because that's what the player wants. Just that a player should have some way to acquire a magic item appropriate to their level of their chosen type. Whether that come from transfering an enchantment, enchanting a weapon themselves, questing for a weapon, or going to ye olde magic shope, the option should be there. A GM who continuously shuts down every possible way for a character to get a weapon of the type they want is just being a jerk to the player for wanting a character type that the GM doesn't like.

[Seerow]

So why do we have different stats for different weapons anyway? Why not just say that all piercing melee weapons work exactly the same and make them all a role-playing choice, and perhaps make all magic weapons able to change into a different kind of weapon for a specific user.

There actually is a property for that in 3.5. Morphing Weapons are pretty awesome. Morphing Metaline Weapons are even more awesome. Aptitude Morphing Metaline Weapons are even more awesome than that.

Unfortunately that's a damn specific item, and expecting every (or any) weapon that drops to be something along those lines IS munchkinry. Expecting to be able to find a rapier once every few levels worth of adventures I don't really think is.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

but just because Fuchs wants to be uber-raper man, doesnt mean the encounter is going to have an orc using a rapier.

Not at all, nor should it. But there's no reason why you can't have the party attacked later on by a human(oid) assassin who DOES use a rapier, hired by someone the party pissed off earlier.

[Lago PARANOIA]

So why do we have different stats for different weapons anyway?

Because having different stats for different weapons makes sense at lower levels. The difference between your peasants having glaives and having greatspears may seriously be the deciding line between victory and defeat. I can even see an argument being made for such piddling differences to mean something at higher levels because it's a gameplay/story tradeoff in favor of gameplay--but the idea of a character concept totally not working at all because you're using a battleaxe instead of a rapier needs to die at a certain point in the game. And because I want to make it so that you can get +5 battle axes on your very first adventure it's best not to introduce that crap at all (weapon dependent character) in the first place. It should at the very most be a symmetric tradeoff, not a requirement for certain or any styles.

Okay, so what's your problem with said brute orc having something like a keen flaming burst axe, and Fuchs looting it and transfering that enchantment to a rapier because he prefers the rapier?

If someone wants to stick with using one type of weapon, that should be an option for them.

Because 'needs a specific weapon to function' is a retarded flavor limitation for characters at higher levels and is one of the reasons why DMFs suck so much. Weaning people off of that crap is good for the game in the long run because it forces people to think outside the narrow and weaksauce box of 'I'm Krusk, I hit things with an AXE. My AXEness is how I define my character because I hit stuff with an AXE'.

It's nothing to do with game balance and everything to do with not falling into the 4E trap where an epic-level character wanks over to piddling shit like what kind of weapon they use.