Abortion ... the wiki

[Lago PARANOIA]

Since some states are ass, and some are not.

And of course, since most U.S. states are completely arbitrary boundaries drawn up well over a century ago, you can even have subregions within states that are pretty sweet to live in while the rest of it is ass.

For example: Austin, TX is nothing like the rest of the state. It along with most of the urban areas has more in common zeitgeist-wise with San Diego than the rest. And it's probably going to stay that way, too, with the tech boom and (in)ternational immigration. Oregon has a reputation as a liberal state, but that's only because of Portland. Hell, even in Georgia, smack dab in the Deep South, there's friggin' Atlanta. And of course there are places like Maine where the north and south halves are almost like different countries.

That said, there are some definite shitholes in this country. I wouldn't wish rural Pennsylvania on anyone for example. Fuck, they can't even pay their public schoolteachers for over half a year because they're giving tax breaks to the rich and fracking companies. Like, they literally stopped getting paychecks and had to work out of the goodness of their hearts.

[Maj]

This really once again prompts the question I have, which I really don't feel like asking on most largely American message boards. The question is, and I really, seriously hope you don't lose your shit over this (and with tzor out, I think it's possible you won't,) but do modern Americans, like urban, internet-connected, somewhat educated ones understand that Europeans consider the US a third world country? Like that most of us read news from the US with this troubled condescension, pretty much exactly like we read news about the Republic of Congo or Afghanistan?

In all my travels, I haven't met anyone who thinks the US is an actual third world country. Shithole, yes. Third world, no. I mean, I've spent time in a plumbingless house made of cow crap and grass - the US isn't perfect, but it's not that. Anyone who thinks it is is more ignorant than an American.

But I do know that Americans are often looked on with suspicion - like we're all just criminals waiting to happen. And I also know that most of the rest of the world has no idea what America is really like. Many foreigners that have come to visit (this area, at least) express their surprise at the fact that the country isn't entirely paved with everyone packing guns.

I'm not making an argument as to what part of the world is the best, mind you, I'm just asking if regular Americans realize that most of the world don't think very highly of the US. As in, I know the folks over there often believe for whatever reason that they live in The Greatest Nation on Earth, but is it common knowledge that not many in the rest of the world think the US is that great?

Yes and no. I think a lot of Americans know the world doesn't like them, but they treat it like a "they're jealous" sort of thing, rather than a "we're douches" sort of thing.

Birth control pills are a bit expensive, but is $15-$20 a month really breaking the bank? The $3,000 sounds like it was pulled directly out of somebody's ass.

Agreed. Even when my health insurance wasn't covering my birth control pills, I wasn't paying $250/month for them. Only about $35. My mind boggles at that cost.

[Maj]

Birth control pills are a bit expensive, but is $15-$20 a month really breaking the bank? The $3,000 sounds like it was pulled directly out of somebody's ass.

Agreed. Even when my health insurance wasn't covering my birth control pills, I wasn't paying $250/month for them. Only about $35. My mind boggles at that cost.

Just a correction: Ms. Fluke gave the birth control cost of $3,000 over the course of law school, not annually.

[Doom]

Still a little steep, but at least a reasonable cost, when you consider she needs to pay off the doctor regularly to keep getting the pills.

[Ted the Flayer]

If you told me that visiting Rural Louisiana is not something you were willing to risk, I would understand. That place is nuts.

There'd have to be a more compelling reason for me to visit Louisiana than mere sightseeing. I've also heard some nasty stories from someone who used to live in Missouri.

[Ted the Flayer]

Denmark's people are the happiest,

Is there a link for this? I thought they were the most pessimistic and miserable. My sample base (1) certainly suggests as much, but I would be less than surprised to learn that the "they are the most miserable" is some kind of meme or joke or something.

I used to chat with a Danish girl once. She seemed like she would TRY to find things to be offended about. When I stopped talking to her, she kept sending me harassing e-mails. I have heard good things about Denmark, but I don't think I would even try to pick up women there...

[The Vigilante]

Uhhhhh.
Germany: One of the healthiest economies in the western sphere.
Austria and Switzerland: Pretty boss, too.
France might bitch a lot, but they have it pretty alright.
Italy? They're being rescued by the new guy in charge before they really had a chance to collapse.
Belarus? Not part of the EU.
And East/West Europe are pretty separate both in culture and economy.
Oh, and hey, America is pretty much the only properly first-world nation where the cops act like they've got the carte blanche they'd have in a police state.

I'm assuming you were being facetious and using hyperbole with the "Only Scandinavia is good Europe, the rest of it is a toilet". But that's the feedback I got from the Dane I speak to.

What a load of chauvinistic bullshit. Your friend appears to be incapable of grasping the first thing about Frank's argument. By the way, in France, cops can ask anyone, anytime for their ID card, for no reason. They call it identity control and there ain't shit nobody can do about it, it's actually one of the few remains of Vichy France. That's something that's actually worthy of a police state, and there's nothing close to that in all of North America. So fuck your ignorant friend and fuck his dumb ass argument.

[Kaelik]

there's nothing close to that in all of North America.

Well, Arizona,that's pretty close.

[erik]

If you told me that visiting Rural Louisiana is not something you were willing to risk, I would understand. That place is nuts.

There'd have to be a more compelling reason for me to visit Louisiana than mere sightseeing. I've also heard some nasty stories from someone who used to live in Missouri.

I recall a Dateline story on corrupt Louisiana police abusing the asset theft anti-drug laws link 1, link 2. Apparently Dateline's reporter investigated for about a year before going in to catch them in the act since it appeared in some stretches of highway tons of minorities or anyone with out of state plates were getting pulled over for no reason other than so that the police could steal shit.

The unmarked crew's van had California plates and sure enough they got pulled over for improper lane change despite never changing lanes, and got the 3rd degree despite doing nothing wrong. Wish I could find the video of it, apparently it was a pretty famous episode.

Yeah, I won't ever drive through Louisiana if I can avoid it.

It was nearly 15 years ago, but damn if it didn't leave a terrifying impression upon me. I still won't go there.

[Kaelik]

Do you avoid New York City? Because I hear they once had corrupt people at one time too.

[erik]

I don't avoid NYC, though sadly I've never gotten to visit. I would like to someday. =-(

My continued avoidance of Louisiana (and I have had the opportunity to drive through but opted not to do so) has to do largely with that I haven't heard of it getting any better and in our worsening political/econimical climate, it sure doesn't seem likely to happen either. Here was their radical reform. Traffic stops are not allowed "to take longer than reasonably necessary to write a ticket". Yeah, I'm sure that with that will do it. Ugh. The only reasonable way to put the brakes on it is to remove the incentive to directly fund your department via forfeiture. But nobody wants to remove funding from law enforcement. That is political suicide. So yeah, I have reasonable concerns that this shit isn't gonna stop once it gets started.

In fact more states adopted similar asset forfeiture laws and now I don't know how many shitty places there are, but Louisiana is certainly one of them still. It certainly has spread to Texas. Leave it to Texas to do asset forfeiture on a grander scale.

Ah, looks like Louisiana isn't much better considering they are raking in more and more money via asset forfeiture. Strangely their law didn't stop or even slow the money flow.

I'm probably spoiled because Indiana police does not (yet) get to fund itself directly by stealing from citizens. Once that shit gets on the books then there is tremendous incentive to find ways to seize assets that before were not a priority.

Disclaimer: I don't know the records of any of these sites, they were just the first ones to come up with usable data.

[Username17]

there's nothing close to that in all of North America.

Well, Arizona,that's pretty close.

Remember that the Arizona law actually got overturned by a higher court. As in: in the United States of America it is actually against the constitution to make a law that is even close to as invasive and police-stateish as the one the French have lived under for generations.

Because the person that Koumei was quoting is a fucking idiot who doesn't know shit about comparative rights vis a vis European and American citizens. I want to point out that I was literally arrested and sentenced to deportation without trial again a week ago as part of getting a marriage license, because the Czech law system is a fucking joke. I mean yes, American immigration law is draconian and everyone has their INS stories, but to say that it is more so than what you find in Europe is fucking retarded.

-Username17

[Pseudo Stupidity]

There's a severe lack of America lovin' going on in this thread.

Have you guys even seen Team America?

I will say I dislike NYC though. It's dirty and there are homeless people are all over the place (I don't hate the homeless, it's just depressing). I also dislike the massive crowd of people that is everywhere all the time. I guess there's some charm in that? People smell funny and are often rude, I can get along fine without bumping shoulders with hundreds of them a day.

I like being in good ol' NH. No sales tax, we have liquor stores on the highway and are just an all-around ballin' ass place to live. You know, if you don't mind the fucked up weather and occasional insanity in state government.

Snowstorm in October that knocks out power for a week? Yeah, we had that last year.

[Koumei]

By the way, in France, cops can ask anyone, anytime for their ID card, for no reason. They call it identity control and there ain't shit nobody can do about it, it's actually one of the few remains of Vichy France. That's something that's actually worthy of a police state,

Really? I mean, I'm pretty sure when the police stopped me five times the other week when delivering pamphlets, and asked for my ID, they were totally within their rights to do so. Unless "wandering around the neighbourhood when they received a report of 'someone suspicious lurking the area'" makes all the difference here.

Or is the difference "what happens if you don't have the ID"? Presumably, had I not had my ID on me they would have either taken me in for questioning or just taken details of my appearance and been satisfied with what they saw in the bag I had (pamphlets). If the French police can then actually put you in jail for "not carrying your ID when walking the dog" or deport you or whatever, then I'll concede that's fucked.

[The Vigilante]

By the way, in France, cops can ask anyone, anytime for their ID card, for no reason. They call it identity control and there ain't shit nobody can do about it, it's actually one of the few remains of Vichy France. That's something that's actually worthy of a police state,

Really? I mean, I'm pretty sure when the police stopped me five times the other week when delivering pamphlets, and asked for my ID, they were totally within their rights to do so. Unless "wandering around the neighbourhood when they received a report of 'someone suspicious lurking the area'" makes all the difference here.

Or is the difference "what happens if you don't have the ID"? Presumably, had I not had my ID on me they would have either taken me in for questioning or just taken details of my appearance and been satisfied with what they saw in the bag I had (pamphlets). If the French police can then actually put you in jail for "not carrying your ID when walking the dog" or deport you or whatever, then I'll concede that's fucked.

I don't know about Australia, but in France, if you can't produce a valid ID card (other documents like passports or visas might be accepted by the police officer), you can be detained for up to 4 hours.

[erik]

Yah, my understanding is that in the U.S. generally police can ask you to verbally identify yourself (even this requires probable cause, which you can probably just assume they will be able to claim), but if you don't have ID on you, no worries, assuming you were not observed doing something that required that ID anyway.

http://flexyourrights.org/faq/When_do_I_have_to_show_ID

That site has all sorts of helpful info to U.S. residents for understanding how to deal with police in such a way that you really cut down your odds of being screwed.

[Koumei]

I don't know about Australia, but in France, if you can't produce a valid ID card (other documents like passports or visas might be accepted by the police officer), you can be detained for up to 4 hours.

Yeah, that's pretty shitty.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Quick aside: how does Canada and Japan compare to Scandanavia?

[Koumei]

In Japan, "looking foreign" makes you the prime suspect in any crime in the local area where you happen to be, and can probably be thought of as the equivalent to carrying a pistol in America: not a crime in and of itself, but in conjunction with a crime/getting pulled over, is certainly going to be an aggravating factor.

If arrested, you have the right to not have a lawyer present when questioned (you cannot waive this right, so what I'm saying is "you don't get a lawyer") and you had better fucking have your ID on you or be able to call someone to bring it for you. Conviction rates are incredibly high for any crime where they arrest a suspect for questioning - equal parts "It's amazing what people confess to when locked in a room, restrained, with the police and no witnesses" and "The jury basically always rules in favour of the prosecution."

Apparently crime in general is pretty low there, although there is the perceived problem of delinquency (as with everywhere else in the world) as more students realise they basically aren't going to be able to get a job so they may as well drop out of school and enjoy a few years of freedom before "???" (or joining a family business). Also, more youths seem to be going around "looking like they're in a gang" ("American" haircuts, tattoos, riding around on scooters and other heinous activities). But you know what it's like, old people always complain that today's youth is a scourge on society and nothing like the old days.

Suicide is always high there, that could be due to a racial inclination to kill themselves at the drop of a hat (see: samurai committing sudoku seppuku all the time) or more likely school causing immense pressures on them, work being a hellish existence for many and so on. Come to think of it, a "kill yourself" gene probably wouldn't pass on that much, would it?

Note that I'm not just telling you stuff from Sankakucomplex or whatever, this is from the mouths of people who live there (with my own commentary mixed in) - though none of them is actually Japanese.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Come to think of it, a "kill yourself" gene probably wouldn't pass on that much, would it?

That's the 'aging' trait, and it's immensely successful. It means your offspring don't have to compete with their increasingly badass ancestors for resources.

[erik]

Come to think of it, a "kill yourself" gene probably wouldn't pass on that much, would it?

That's the 'aging' trait, and it's immensely successful. It means your offspring don't have to compete with their increasingly badass ancestors for resources.

Or consider ants. The majority are removed from the genepool at birth, but as a colony they are crazy successful and as a result those genetic dead ends are actually far more successful than if they tried to act in their own interest.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Man, we should really make another thread for this, but:

What's the deal with the U.S. Crime rate? Specifically, it's dropping. Like a hell of a lot. The crime rate in the United States has been plummeting very rapidly in the last couple of decades despite the ongoing drug wars (which leads to a much larger incarceration rate, but doesn't cause non-drug crime to rise as much as you'd think), the stalling out of the social safety net, and rising income inequality. There are a couple of other factors I think you can point to like the Clinton administration's putting extra police officers out on the streets and computerizing the executive branch (thus making their work more efficient) but the effect shouldn't be this large and sustained.

The only explanation I can think of for why this is the case is that homophobic, racist, and sexist attitudes are a lot lower for U.S. Gen X / Gen Y generations than Baby Boomers and Generation Jones and even though the United States' social factors would normally be a cocktail for vastly increased crime rates the de-bigotizing of society is (for now) a larger factor.

Alternatively, to spin this back into weaksauce attempt of staying on-topic, do you think it has to do with having safe access to abortion and birth control? Maybe, but the crime wave in the U.S. peaked in the 80s, well after Roe v. Wade.

[virgil]

Maybe the increasingly draconian police activity and punishment is doing the job of reducing crime rate?

[Koumei]

The crime rate is almost always dropping - it's unusual for it to actually spike, and tends to only happen when some big bad thing occurs that shakes everything up (for instance, it went through the holes in the roof during WWII, and that's not counting genocide and invasion as crimes, I just mean the sheer amount of burglary going on in Britain alone).

So chances are, this is just a case of "Crime rate going down again, situation normal". Remember, the bit where old people complain about how "crime rates are skyrocketing, and we know this because:
[*]I saw graffiti on a fence
[*]There are beer bottles lying beside the road
[*]Kids are impolite
[*]That neighbour is always screaming and swearing at her kids
[*]I keep seeing groups of black people, together in numbers greater than 2 or 3!
[*]Things cost more money, clearly a response to shoplifters!
[*]There are a lot of fuckwits on the road

And it's been that way ever since we:
[*]Gave black people rights
[*]Gave women rights
[*]Legalised sodomy as a lifestyle and not a sin
[*]Stopped mandating everyone follow our Lord and Saviour
[*]Stopped beating the shit out of children
[*]Ended prohibition"

They're just complaining in general and can be safely ignored.

[DSMatticus]

The crime rate is almost always dropping - it's unusual for it to actually spike, and tends to only happen when some big bad thing occurs that shakes everything up (for instance, it went through the holes in the roof during WWII, and that's not counting genocide and invasion as crimes, I just mean the sheer amount of burglary going on in Britain alone).
...
So chances are, this is just a case of "Crime rate going down again, situation normal". Remember, the bit where old people complain about how "crime rates are skyrocketing, and we know this because:

That's not really true for the United States. See, you really have to just expect the worse when it comes to us. Especially in any discussion about criminal justice. Our crime rate increased steadily from 1960 onward to the 80's and 90's. Half of the past 50 years represent a gradual increase in crime for the United States. Most of those old bitching geezers spent their youth and middle age in a time when every generation was successively more violent than the last. By the time that stopped happening, their brains were old and mushy and they couldn't remember that "30 years ago" is a different thing from "now," and so the bitching continues.

Alternatively, to spin this back into weaksauce attempt of staying on-topic, do you think it has to do with having safe access to abortion and birth control? Maybe, but the crime wave in the U.S. peaked in the 80s, well after Roe v. Wade.

Weaksauce indeed. Also, violent crime actually peaked in the early 90's, with the 80's being a close second contender. For property crimes, the reverse is true; early 80's is the peak, early 90's is a second, smaller peak. But anyway, more on topic to your question: it's complicated. Way more complicated than social safety nets and income inequality. And it probably has nothing to do with abortion and birth control, but there's going to be a correlation with abortion and birth control because the same people who want abortion and birth control know how to solve the crime problem, so when you give them power both happen.

But criminal motivations come in a lot of flavor. You have criminal enterprises, you have violent criminal enterprises (yes, they're distinct; compare Al Capone to the people he replaced. Al Capone basically murdered his way to the top of what was previously a far less violent world of criminal enterprise), you have white collar crimes, you have romance murders, you have hardcore drug addicts who commit crimes to support their habit, you have crimes people commit to support their lifestyle (whether that lifestyle is "having food to eat" or "wanting an mp3 player" or "having free music and movies"), you have culturally-driven violent conflict-resolution.

Every single one of those is a different problem caused by different factors in society and you solve each of them differently.

Cool things about young people today:
1) Romance murders and marital murders are going down. They are a lot more level-headed about their relationships.
2) Violent conflict overall is just going down. They are less likely to get pissed at eachother and start swinging.
3) Hardcore drug addiction is down, despite Reagan being a fuckwad.

All of those help, and most of them are a product of social engineering in schools we really started working on in the 90's, and now we're seeing returns on it.