[Ars Magica 5] OOC: It's PeIm for darkness, not PeCo

[Prak]

Nope, it's telling me I have 5 xp, and I haven't even gotten to Finesse:

And I tried plugging in arts, and it still didn't count it. It's weird.

[momothefiddler]

Weird.

Without looking at the sheet in more detail, I don't have any further suggestions.

I wonder if that's related to the Wealthy coding, or if the Art Affinity issue and the +5xp issue are related....

[Prak]

The sheet I'm using is from here: http://www.chaomancer.net/blog/?p=304

I'm using the most recent 1.5 version.

[momothefiddler]

Ah. The 5xp is because you get Heartbeast 1 for free, since you're Bjornaer. Now lemme go look at the Art Affinity.

EDIT: Art Affinities are working fine for me so far. Which ones sepecifically did you test? Did you select it from the dropdown in the appropriate column? Did you make sure to put the base xp in XP (C.Gen) and then see the modified total under Total XP?

[Prak]

No, I just selected two random, different, arts, I didn't go and put in xp. Trying that, it still doesn't count Affinity with Arts in my Virtue points.

The 5xp is still really confusing because it's telling me I have 5xp remaining to spend in the Later Life category.

[momothefiddler]

That is confusing, yes. I'd call it an error in the sheet. But the reason it's there is because of

IF(OR($Setup.D12="Criamon",$Setup.D12="Bjornaer"),5,0)

It looks like it used to be free points and you were supposed to put them in yourself (or it was automatic? That would explain why it was Later Life - there's no issue with protecting that cell since it's impossible to put points in Heartbeast before apprenticeship...), but now that's an artifact because P111 just adds 5 points if you're Bjornaer. Short answer: Yes, the sheet is wrong. Long answer: You should just remove the quoted bit above (and one of the attached +s, of course) and everything will work fine.

Affinity with Arts doesn't add to your xp available to spend and then immediately subtract from them (though I can see how that might make sense). It just multiplies the amount you spent by 1.5 to get your effective amount and calculates your Art level off that. I think it makes more sense to spend 30 points in an Art and get it at 9 than to spend 45 points in an Art, get an extra 15, and put the Art at 9, but I can definitely see how it might make more sense the other way. I think that's a design choice, though, not a sheet error.

[Prak]

No, I mean, on the virtues sheet, it's not counting that I have Affinity with Arts selected as "yes" in the Virtue Points box.

Try entering my virtues into the sheet.

[Korgan0]

At this point it might be easier just to do it by hand.

[momothefiddler]

Ah yes, that is an error. Sorry I took so long getting your meaning.

Virtues.K24 should be

=IF(E24="x1",1,IF(E24="x2",2,0))

Similar things go for any other virtue with x1 and x2 options.

[Prak]

Ok, I thought so. Sadly, I'll have to change my virtues a bit, then.

[Prak]

So Death Prophecy is gone. Sadly, but the other stuff was stuff I wanted more.

Just checking, but in the spells chapter, the Level for each Technique/Form pairing is the target for your casting roll to use that effect, right? So so long as my Technique+Form+Stamina, plus a die, is within 10 points of the level, I can achieve that effect, whether with a spontaneous or formulaic spell?

[Korgan0]

For Formulaic magic, your casting roll bonus is equal to Technique+Form+Sta+Aura+whatever. If it's equal to or greater than the level, you cast it without penalty, with the MoS being added to Penetration. If it's within ten, you cast it, but you take a level of fatigue. Spontaneous casting functions two ways- it's either equal to half your standard casting roll, in which case you automatically suffer a level of fatigue after the spell is cast, or it's equal to a fifth of your bonus without the die, in which case you suffer no ill effects. Apparently spontaneous magic was much stronger in earlier editions, but part of that is probably due to the largest spontaneous magic users, House Diedne, getting exterminated by the rest of the order.

25 can be a good casting total to shoot for in a key technique+form combination, because then you can cast a lot of low level utility spells just off the top of your head, without needing to learn them. Speaking for Vim, there are two very important level 5 InVi spells that let you fuck around with Vis, and since so long as I'm in an Aura of +2 or higher I can cast them for free, I didn't take them at chargen despite them being a key part of my character.

[Laertes]

When you cast a Formulaic spell, your casting total is your:

Sta + Technique + Form + aura if any + Stress die.

If this adds up to at least the spell level - 10, the spell goes off.

When casting spontaneous magic, your casting total is the same but is divided by either two (if you spend fatigue) or five (if you don't). If you don't spend fatigue then there is also no Stress die. If that adds up to at least the spell level, it goes off. There is no "ten level safety margin" with spontaneous magic like there is with formulaic.

Then, if you have a Sta of +1 and Arts of 9, you can cast formulaic magic at a level of 1 + 9 + 9 + aura + die. Which means that in a neutral aura, you can almost always get off spells of level 20, and can almost always get off spells of level 30 if you're okay with spending fatigue.

Since your magus has Mythic Blood, he doesn't need to spend fatigue when he falls within the "ten level safety margin." This is really good and should make you feel like a badass.

[Prak]

Yeah, I just found the relevant thing in Spontaneous.

I need to have a score in a form to use magic that targets said form, correct? I can't just rely on Creo+Stam+die if all I want to do is Level 10 effects, correct?

And yeah, I noticed that part of Mythic Blood, and have been taking that into account.

[Laertes]

You don't need a score above 0 in an Art to cast with it. Since you have Mythic Blood you can therefore cast a level 10 spell with zero in both the Form and the Technique and have it only fail on a confirmed botch, all without spending Fatigue.

So yes, you could just rely on Sta + Creo if you wanted to.

This means that if you have Herbam 10 then you can cast level 15-20 spells within any part of Herbam even if you don't have any Techniques. If you have Herbam 10 and Creo 10 then you can cast level 25-30 Creo Herbam spells, and also level 15-20 spells which fall anywhere else within Herbam and anywhere else within Creo.

This has the nice effect of meaning that becoming a specialist also gives you proficiency in a wide range of other stuff.

-----

That said, remember that you can't start knowing a spell of level higher than your lab total in a three point aura, i.e:

Intelligence + MT + Technique + Form + 3.

Therefore you'd need a fairly intimidating Intelligence + MT of 7 to be able to know a level 10 spell if you had zeroes in both the Technique and Form... but if you knew it, you could cast it.

Later in play, this becomes less of an issue because you can raise your MT and can get lab assists from other magi if need be.

[Korgan0]

For what it's worth, my intelligence+MT is 12, so I can invent any level 10 spell in two seasons, which you can then learn in another season, so we should be able to build up a collection of minor spells fairly quickly.

[Laertes]

For what it's worth, my intelligence+MT is 12, so I can invent any level 10 spell in two seasons, which you can then learn in another season, so we should be able to build up a collection of minor spells fairly quickly.

Cross-teaching one another your low-level spells is a common activity in a cooperative covenant. So is cross-teaching your Arts.

A reminder: if your Communication is 0 and you have no Teach Ability, you can drop 9xp into someone in a single season via one-on-one teaching, and get 2xp yourself for your trouble. That's two seasons to get from 0 to 5. Having 0 in an Art should therefore be seen as a temporary problem if it's even a problem at all.

[Korgan0]

Can we use the lab customization rules?

[Prak]

Well, I've set up to be primarily a hexer with Perdo at 10 (well, a puissant 7) and Corpus 9, but also general ability in everything else, my secondary focus being in creating and changing things, especially animals and people.

I also noticed Mythic Blood allows for my magical feat to be up to Level 30, so conceivably it could be Blow it Out Your Arse as you designed earlier with 0 penetration, right?

[Laertes]

Can we use the lab customization rules?

Yes, if momothefiddler is still happy to run the finances sheet. Upkeep is the killer for customised labs.

I also noticed Mythic Blood allows for my magical feat to be up to Level 30, so conceivably it could be Blow it Out Your Arse as you designed earlier with 0 penetration, right?

Yes. Be aware that Blow It Out Your Arse only works on humans since it's a Corpus spell. (It would also work on reanimated human bodies, but shitting their own intestines out is unlikely to bother them.)

[Prak]

Yeah, I know. It's basically the only way I can have it at the moment, short of overspecializing in Perdo Corpus.

Question on Creo durations, two actually-

1- Is there a way to set a duration to "While I'm touching it?"

2- If you create food with a duration of a year, what happens at the end of the year? Looking at the reverse case of the magical horse and the mundane food, it's implied that in a year food is converted to body. Which implies that if you reverse it, with a mundane body and magical food, that you're basically converting part of a body into magical substance. The text specifically says that when the duration ends on created food, you become extremely hungry.

But that's not really enough information. If you're just idly snacking on created nuts, and eat a proper meal later, as or before the duration ends, what happens?
If your daily lunch is created food, with a duration of a year, and your other meals are mundane, what happens?
If you feed a person only created food for a year, with a duration of a year, what happens at the end of the year? What happens if the food is created daily? What happens if the food is created in one large chunk that will feed for a year, and kept from degrading?

Ok, that's more than two, but whatever.

Oh, one more, but a thematic one. Say I'm using my spell that's fluffed as reaching into squirrel space and pulling an object out, set to Herbam. So, thematically, what I'd like to do, or be able to, is just have a floating squirrel hole in mid air that I can reach into to grab things, rather than just have a spell that's fluffed as me reaching into a momentary hole in space to pull out whatever I'm creating. So basically, a bowl of fruits and nuts floating in the air.

I think I explained that well enough...

[Laertes]

Yeah, I know. It's basically the only way I can have it at the moment, short of overspecializing in Perdo Corpus.

You could have it as something to aspire to. It's always a good idea for player characters to have goals.

But yes, if you want it right now then you either need to be a PeCo specialist or take it as your Mythic Blood power.

1- Is there a way to set a duration to "While I'm touching it?"

Concentration Duration. It's what it's there for.

2- If you create food with a duration of a year, what happens at the end of the year? Looking at the reverse case of the magical horse and the mundane food, it's implied that in a year food is converted to body. Which implies that if you reverse it, with a mundane body and magical food, that you're basically converting part of a body into magical substance. The text specifically says that when the duration ends on created food, you become extremely hungry.

But that's not really enough information. If you're just idly snacking on created nuts, and eat a proper meal later, as or before the duration ends, what happens?

Nothing much. You just feel sort of peckish, as if you'd never eaten the nuts in the first place.

For your other questions, we have to remember that Year duration requires a ritual spell. With Creo magic, rituals of any sort create permanent effects which, at the end of the spell's duration, remain as entirely mundane things. For example, there's a common Creo Corpus spell used by necromancers which simply creates a pile of corpses, saving you the trouble of having to exhume the things. Those are completely mundane corpses in every way, they simply happen to be created via magic rather than via killing dudes. Likewise, a Creo ritual which boosts your Stamina creates a permanent effect: your Stamina is now naturally higher.

Therefore, if you're doing a ritual anyway, you may as well make the duration Momentary and save yourself some magnitudes (and some vis.)

However, what you asked is "what happens when spell durations expire", not "how does ritual Creo magic work." Therefore, let me answer each of these questions in two ways: What would happen if it was a Moon-length spell (that is, not a ritual); and what would happen if it was a Momentary creo ritual.

If your daily lunch is created food, with a duration of a year, and your other meals are mundane, what happens?

If your daily lunch is created food with a duration of Moon and your other meals are mundane, then at the end of that month you would be exactly as hungry and malnourished as if you had not eaten lunch at all during that period.

If your daily lunch is ritually created food, and your other meals are mundane, then you're as nourished as ever.

If you feed a person only created food for a year, with a duration of a year, what happens at the end of the year?

If you fed a person only created food for a month, with a duration of Moon, then at the end of the month they would need to take in that much nutrition immediately or starve to death. The "starve to death" is really just a cosmetic gloss; what would actually happen is "they would die because as you pointed out, a large part of their body has been converted from that food and is now gone, leaving them as a withered corpse."

If you fed a person only created food for an entire year, and that food is ritually created, then it would be exactly as though they'd eaten mundane food for that entire year.

What happens if the food is created in one large chunk that will feed for a year, and kept from degrading?

If it's created in a large chunk that will feed for a month, and kept from degrading, then it would disappear at the end of that month and everyone who was using it as a food source would starve to death as above. This is known as "Cinderella Magic", because of the bit in the Cinderella story when her coach turns back into a pumpkin at midnight.

If it's ritually created, then it's exactly like a pile of mundane food that's kept from degrading.

Generally, if you want something to be permanent, then do it as a Creo ritual. Where Cinderella magic becomes amazingly good is in cases where the item you're creating is only needed for a while. Firewood is a good example; once it's gone you don't really need the ash to stick around, do you?

Oh, one more, but a thematic one. Say I'm using my spell that's fluffed as reaching into squirrel space and pulling an object out, set to Herbam. So, thematically, what I'd like to do, or be able to, is just have a floating squirrel hole in mid air that I can reach into to grab things, rather than just have a spell that's fluffed as me reaching into a momentary hole in space to pull out whatever I'm creating. So basically, a bowl of fruits and nuts floating in the air.

This one is interesting. If I understand it correctly, it's the difference between a single ongoing spell (an invisible hole full of fruit and nuts is created and hovers there) and multiple small spells (you reach out and grab some fruit and nuts whenever you're peckish.) These are distinct cases, and interact differently with different situations:

- If you're in a hostile aura or a stressed situation, there's the possibility of a botch. Therefore, multiple small spells are more dangerous.

- If you're in a hostile Aegis and so have a casting penalty, lower level spells will be easier to cast. Therefore, multiple small spells are easier.

- If someone walks in halfway through and casts a spell that lets them see any ongoing magics, then a series of short spells won't show up, but a single continuing one will.

Therefore, if you want a single casting of a spell to make a floating hole full of snacks which persists for long enough to eat them, then make it a Diameter spell. If you want each handful to be its own low-level spell, make it a Momentary spell (and you may well be able to spont it.)

Does that make sense?

[Prak]

Interesting. Ok, so then on ritual magic, are we able to start with them? Do ritual spells have their level normally figured and then bumped up to 20?

I feel like I remember some prohibition against starting with ritual formulae, but might as well ask again rather than scanning 11 pages.

Also, might as well write up the formulae I'm looking at:

Traveling the World Tree
(ReCo 20)
The caster can, seemingly by traveling the branches, roots and squirrel holes of the world tree, move up to 150' away.
(Base 15, Personal, Momentary, Individual)

Petrified Wood
(MuHe[te] 10)
The caster transforms a touched plant object into one of metal, stone or other mineral.
(Base 4, +1 Touch, +1 Diameter, Individual)

Forgotten Cache
(CrHe 4)
The caster reaches into a conjured or existing squirrel hole and draws forth a plant or plant product.
(Base 1, +1 Touch, +1 Diameter, +1 Group)

Draw and Quarter
(ReCo[Pe] 25)
The caster lifts a target into the air, arms and legs splayed and slowly pulled apart from each other as if tied to four horses. The primary effect is the target being held in the air, but the spell also injures the target as their limbs are pulled slowly, but strongly. The casting of the spell can inflict an Incapacitating Wound on the target, sever a limb, or be used with less force to inflict lesser wounds instead.
(Base 15, +1 Touch, +1 Concentration, Individual)

The Blood Eagle
(PeCo[CrHe] 25)
A tree instantly grows around the limbs of an individual, holding him fast as his ribcage is split at the sternum and opened forcefully, tearing skin and muscle and exposing internal organs.
This spell deals an Incapacitating Wound, and binds the target. Unless he receives aid and healing in short order, he is likely to die, but it's not certain.
(Base 20, +1 Touch, Momentary, Individual)


Non-Formulae, Commonly Used Spont.
SOUS (Squirrel of Unusual Size)
(MuAn 5)
Nidratr alters his form in Heartbeast form so as to become a comparatively immense squirrel, roughly the size of a pony (Size +1), suitable for true combat.
(Base 4, Personal, +1 Concentration, Individual)

I have another 11 points for spells, and just realized that there's no point in my using formulae for very low level effects, so I'm going to revise these, just... later, since it's 540am.

[Laertes]

A ritual with a level below 20 has its level bumped up to 20. Therefore, make sure your rituals have a level of at least 20.

You can definitely begin play with rituals.

Re the spells: I'll get a chance to look at them from a numbers point of view when I get to my books tonight, but those are some pretty intense spells. You're fond of Incapacitating Wounds...

[momothefiddler]

I'm still shaky on requisites, but I'm pretty sure that Draw and Quarter and The Blood Eagle need extra magnitudes because the requisite provides an extra, different effect.