Page 11 of 17
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:16 pm
by Wiseman
FrankTrollman wrote:The Republic Trilogy was really bad. I mean, like really bad. The mind kind of rebels at how shitty Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones actually were. One forgets how little actual dialog is given to Darth Maul, or how fucking creepy it is when Amidala claims to have feelings for someone she last met as an autistic 8 year old. But those movies are not bad due to unambitious world building. Quite the opposite. Everything about the Republic Trilogy is too ambitious.
The Republic Trilogy doesn't shy away from having messages. And those messages are actually poignant and deep. Lucas' prediction that democratic norms would fall apart into authoritarianism and human rights abuse because of demagoguery over minutiae around minor trade disputes was amazingly prescient. the use of heavy handed Jesus metaphors for the villain is actually a deep meditation on how religious certainty can send you down the wrong path. It's just that the movies are extremely cluttered with pointless crap that undermines those messages, breaks the flow of the movie, and crowds out important exposition.
The climax of Phantom Menace is actually four separate events: the CGI fight between the frogs and the rabbit droids, the spaceship battle where the kid blows up the enemy control ship through supposedly humorous happenstance, and the palace fight where all the actual main characters are - itself split into the sword fight between the Jedi and the Sith who doesn't have any fucking lines and the rest of the palace battle where the rest of the cast fight droids in the throne room. Basically there's two events there that anyone fucking cares about, and it's intercut and undercut by extraneous special effects extravaganzas that are played for laughs and therefore ruin the tension of the adjoining scenes. It's a mess. Lucas attempted to go bigger than the previous movies by weaving together more climax threads, but it ends up being a gibberish lightshow. Less would have been more.
Now from a Star Wars fan's perspective, the obvious sins of The Phantom Menace were that it threw a lot of the worldbuilding from the original trilogy into the dumpster. And indeed, changes like making Anakin not be a pilot when Obi Wan met him and making Anakin not have a brother and making Anakin come from the place that Anakin's brother was supposedly hiding thus making that a very questionable choice for where to hide were all changes that have a real storytelling cost and thus required payoffs to be worth doing. They did not have payoffs, and they were not worth doing.
But I could imagine a version of The Phantom Menace that actually went somewhere with the revelation that Luke Skywalker wasn't blood related to Owen. There isn't any obvious benefit for that reveal, and the actual movies that got made didn't justify wasting screen time on that reveal at all. But the movies could have gone somewhere with that choice. Like all the other deviations from established worldbuilding statements from the original trilogy, it's only wrong if it doesn't go anywhere. But of course, none of them ended up going anywhere from Midichlorians to C3PO being owned by Darth Vader as a child. Those reveals take up a substantial amount of mind caulk to keep things working. Like, we go through an elaborate deal about mind wiping C3PO so we excuse why he doesn't recognize Darth Vader, but Darth Vader not recognizing C3PO in the original trilogy is just left as a plot hole.
These choices were wrong because there was no pay off. If there had been an elaborate Usual Suspects style reveal at some point that C3PO knew perfectly well what was going down the whole time and was in it with Darth Vader from the beginning or something, that would have been unexpected, but it wouldn't have been wrong. The fact that the whole plotline of C3PO being assembled by Anakin while he's a child slave prodigy in a junkyard goes literally nowhere and explains absolutely nothing is what makes it wrong.
For all that, the Republic era is still interesting. The main movies have problems with pacing, plotting, and character development. There are script problems, acting problems, and major issues with both the structural and scene to scene edits. Also the jokes aren't funny and a lot of the humor is supposed to come from racial stereotypes which wasn't acceptable when these movies came out and is even less acceptable today. But I have certainly played games set during the Republic era. There is stuff happening that I can imagine wanting to play a character who interacts with it.
The New Order era is not interesting. I don't fucking care. None of it makes sense and the idea of spending enough mental effort to try to make sense out of it just sounds exhausting. They've managed to make something that fails harder than Attack of the Clones.
-Username17
I mean, this is exactly why Clone Wars is good and rebels ranges tolerable to good. The prequel era's ambitions, regardless of failings, made it interesting. It added a ton of new stuff to the setting and had plenty of material to work with. Heck, trying to fix some of the movie failings get us some of the best storylines.
Due to the time skips, we don't see much of Anakin as a jedi and his willingness to just murder all of them is kinda out of nowhere. In the Clone Wars, we see several actions by the council (faking Obi-Wan's death and not telling him, not standing by ashoka when she's falsely accused of a crime leading to her quitting the order) that steadily erode his trust in the jedi.
Felt the clones were just more faceless goons? There's several clone focused arcs that in my opinion were the best parts of the show.
Annoyed that Darth Maul had no lines? He's brought back and given a lot of characterization throughout clone wars and rebels. This also give more development to obi-wan as well.
On the other hand, what even is there to do in Resistance? The First Order more or less comes out of nowhere, and anything the show tries to introduce will seriously just be made up wholecloth, since Abrams and Jhonson explicitly didn't do any worldbuilding.
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:58 pm
by angelfromanotherpin
Wiseman wrote:On the other hand, what even is there to do in Resistance?
It turns out the answer is 'cringe humor about how the main character is incompetent.'
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:42 am
by Dogbert
angelfromanotherpin wrote:It supposes a state so incompetent that it beggars credulity.
Does it?
How did we reach this point again?
So, basically I'm here the only one who doesn't have a beef on the new trilogy... but then in my case I had the displeasure of having Star Wars ruined for me by a meatspace table who happened to be the worst SW fanboys ever. To me, Ep. VII was my chance to make peace with Star Wars and I really don't hold any attachment to the old material (also I liked the prequels better than the originals, but that is one part the political commentary, one part the first display of actual fencing in Ep III, and one part schadenfreude).
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:29 am
by OgreBattle
Episode I-III are my favorites because of how funny it is to repeat the various lines in unrelated topics. It's given me many smiles and laughs through the years.
The other movies though have given me much grief in life, including a real world altercation with someone in a position of authority over me obsessed with making sure I don't "hate America" by "acknowledging Star Wars is superior to Jap (who MURDERED SO MANY PEOPLE AND NEVER APOLOGIZED) copy shit"
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:15 am
by Shrapnel
Personally, the only Star Wars film I've ever liked was Wrath of Khan.
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:34 am
by Pariah Dog
Shrapnel wrote:Personally, the only Star Wars film I've ever liked was Wrath of Khan.
Twitch
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:56 am
by erik
Pariah Dog wrote:Shrapnel wrote:Personally, the only Star Wars film I've ever liked was Wrath of Khan.
Twitch
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Forgive him, he's probably never seen The Ice Pirates.
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:30 am
by Pariah Dog
In all honesty, it's likely a lighthearted trolling attempt but I figured I'd take the bait just for shits and giggles.
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:43 am
by phlapjackage
Shrapnel wrote:Personally, the only Star Wars film I've ever liked was Wrath of Khan.
And my favorite Transformer is Cy-Kill
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:32 pm
by Leress
phlapjackage wrote:Shrapnel wrote:Personally, the only Star Wars film I've ever liked was Wrath of Khan.
And my favorite Transformer is Cy-Kill
My favorite anime is Corey in the House.
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:50 pm
by fbmf
Leress wrote:phlapjackage wrote:Shrapnel wrote:Personally, the only Star Wars film I've ever liked was Wrath of Khan.
And my favorite Transformer is Cy-Kill
My favorite anime is Corey in the House.
...and Leader One can whip Optimus Prime.
Game On,
fbmf
PS - too far?
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:02 pm
by Shrapnel
fbmf wrote:Leress wrote:phlapjackage wrote:
And my favorite Transformer is Cy-Kill
My favorite anime is Corey in the House.
...and Leader One can whip Optimus Prime.
Game On,
fbmf
PS - too far?
Not according to
this guy.
Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:39 am
by Lago PARANOIA
Anyone else here flat-out insulted by the fake-reveal of Rey going to the Dark Side?
A) It's just a fake-out. This shit is just stupid. Aside from being completely unoriginal, it's also not believable.
B) It's not a fake-out, they actually mean to go through with it. While this is actually kind of ballsy, it also makes no metafictional sense. There's almost nothing in the previous two movies that would suggest that Rey would become an evil Jedi/Sith/whatever. Rey is not a character. It would seriously make more sense for Princess Leia to become an evil Jedi than Rey.
... actually, if we're going to rip off elements from earlier Star Wars works, why couldn't Princess Leia be turned into Darth Kreia? It's too fucking late now, but Leia becoming evil and deciding that the Force must be ripped out from the universe after losing two of her homeworlds and her entire family to it would actually kind of make sense!
Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:49 am
by Kaelik
I mean it seems pretty clear it's going to be a Luke Goes to the Cave fake evil version.
Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:59 am
by Lago PARANOIA
It's insulting because it's such an unoriginal and desperate allusion to a pivotal scene in the 2nd movie. I mean, Jesus, can you telegraph your intention to be the REAL TRUE STAR WARS PRETTY PLEASE LOVE ME more than doing that?
Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:06 am
by maglag
The lightsabers are reaching whole new levels of goofy.
Lago PARANOIA wrote:Anyone else here flat-out insulted by the fake-reveal of Rey going to the Dark Side?
A) It's just a fake-out. This shit is just stupid. Aside from being completely unoriginal, it's also not believable.
B) It's not a fake-out, they actually mean to go through with it. While this is actually kind of ballsy, it also makes no metafictional sense. There's almost nothing in the previous two movies that would suggest that Rey would become an evil Jedi/Sith/whatever. Rey is not a character. It would seriously make more sense for Princess Leia to become an evil Jedi than Rey.
... actually, if we're going to rip off elements from earlier Star Wars works, why couldn't Princess Leia be turned into Darth Kreia? It's too fucking late now, but Leia becoming evil and deciding that the Force must be ripped out from the universe after losing two of her homeworlds and her entire family to it would actually kind of make sense!
Who says that's not what's happening? Clearly Leia's only pretending to be comatose and Darth Kreia will reveal herself as the mistress to apprentice Darth Rey.
Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:10 am
by deaddmwalking
When a movie ditches continuity for 'what's cool', they destroy any investiture the audience has made.
I'll watch the movies for the soundtrack, but I no longer accept the new movies as 'Star Wars' sight unseen. They're no more legitimate than fan-made movies, and if they're not better than Troops, they're not part of my personal Star Wars cannon.
Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:48 am
by Chamomile
In order to be insulted, I would have to have not already given up on the entire Disney franchise after VIII. The mainline movies, at least. I was willing to give the spin-off films a chance until Solo. Now it looks like Rogue One was a total fluke and Disney's Star Wars films are going to be mediocre and rudderless as a rule.
Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:35 am
by OgreBattle
I don't like Disney buyouts. They're coarse and rough and irritating and gets everywhere
Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:41 am
by Josh_Kablack
Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:11 pm
by deaddmwalking
OgreBattle wrote:I don't like Disney buyouts. They're coarse and rough and irritating and gets everywhere
I can't blame the Disney buyout. They at least had a chance to fix things.
The thing that's pissing me off is that folks on the alt-right are insisting that a female protagonist 'Mary Sue' is why the movies are bad.
Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:10 pm
by K
The problem with the history and world-building is the same problem with the character and dialogue writing: fan service.
They couldn't just make new things that are Star Wars and let people enjoy those, but instead had to rehash the old movies and plots and setting elements. I mean, you easily could have have the same STAR WARS (tm) stories with the same ol' space fascists about new planets where the Rebellion didn't start up by saying that the new Republic only liberated some of the core planets, but that would have meant that you couldn't do gratuitous fan service about all the things from the original movies. (Sure, it would be more like Deep Space Nine where old rebels are flustered by bureaucratic paperwork, but that shit does work.)
I mean, SOLO was not just a movie about the backstory of a beloved character. It was a deeply conservative view of the setting and that character because it not just recycles the same character and the same setting, and is still so poor in content that they needed to film explanations for his last name, the backstory of several one-off quips, the reason his ship is slightly cooler than other ships, and the backstory on the goddamn dice on his rearview mirror.
How afraid are you of new content when you are writing up the backstory on dice props which appear and are never mentioned in the original trilogy? Fucking dice which you never even noticed because most people are watching the character's faces and missed that small detail in the old movies?
Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:43 pm
by angelfromanotherpin
K wrote:The problem with the history and world-building is the same problem with the character and dialogue writing: fan service.
Rogue One was also very fan-servicey, but it was well-received even among people who reject the other Disney-era productions.
Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:54 pm
by Lago PARANOIA
Rogue One being the best Star Wars movie in decades spells major trouble for the franchise.
[*] There was no new technology introduced to the franchise.
[*] There were hardly any aliens. Definitely no new ones.
[*] There was no Force Powers besides that used by Vader, aside from an intentionally ambiguous moment at the climax.
[*] The protagonists barely count as action heroes.
[*] The new villain was a mundane fascist shithead.
The things that made it a Star Wars movie was the use of lasers, space vehicles, the Rebellion vs. Empire, desert and ice planets, gritty back alleys, and the Death Star. So I won't go as far as to say it wasn't a Star Wars movie aside from how the lack of any fantastical species besides Akbar and K2SO really tested its credentials to the limits. But even so, Rogue One is all the same elements we've seen before, just remixed in a novel way.
On its own terms, Rogue One is a really good movie and definitely adds to the Star Wars canon in the way that Rogue Squadron and the Thrawn Trilogy did. But that it was the best Star Wars film in over 30 years despite going out of its way to innovate the setting -- and even ignore many elements of the franchise -- is a very poor sign for the franchise.
Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:27 am
by deaddmwalking
I think you can do a fine Star Wars movie without Jedi or rebellions or anything. Making a Star Wars movie about dealing with the Jabba crime syndicate could be fun; making a movie about ace fighter pilots could be cool.
Star Wars is a universe; they should at least consider making EVERY genre of movie set in the Star Wars galaxy. Braveheart with Wookies for the win.