The Gaming Den

Posted: **Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:43 pm**

FrankTrollman wrote:No, he's a writer who says that the director's job is "to tell the actors to talk faster."

-Username17

Directors get a giant amount of creative control. Like, up to deleting whole scenes and rewriting scenes. Producers and the networks can do the same. They all literally get together and approve the scenes and lines months before anything is shot or even planned to be shot.

This is just a guy who likes waving his penis at the only people in the industry who can't hurt him. Screenwriters literally get less credit for their work than the make-up girls.

Name three screenwriters who aren't also actors or directors too. Try it. You can't.

The problem is that there is no rule to good storytelling. Procedural shows are all exposition and Stargate lives and dies by info-dumps and those types of shows are wildly successful.

The rule is: write well. This d-bag running his mouth in all caps is just a prolonged fuck-you to the writers asking them to write better so he will look better.

If I was a writer and this was handed to me, I'd walk out of the room. This is abuse thinly disguised as critique.

Look at his list of writing credits. There are four movies there I've heard of, and only two that I thought were good. Considering how often scripts are stolen in Hollywood, he probably stole those two and the rest are his own home-spun efforts that you can't even find on video.

Posted: **Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:54 pm**

What is up with screenwriters being so marginalized? And I assume this was one of the influences for the Writers' Strike a year or two ago?

Posted: **Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:51 pm**

virgileso wrote:What is up with screenwriters being so marginalized? And I assume this was one of the influences for the Writers' Strike a year or two ago?

Mostly, it's because the writing takes place well before any shooting or acting takes place. This means good writing can easily be stolen or ruined because the writer's input into the production is done well before anyone else gets involved. Also, since the assumption is that they are going to take credit for it anyway, sometimes they just jump the whole author process entirely and do the whole script by committee.

This also means that everyone else gets the facetime with everyone else to highlight how important they are, and change enough of the script so they can take credit for it. I mean, how many actors take credit for their character, even though every thing out of their mouth was written by someone else? Well, the same is true for directors and producers.

Basically, if you want creative control and the associated huge paycheck, you need to direct and possibly produce your own movies so that you can be on the set every day letting people know that the movie is awesome because of you. James Cameron is a good example.

The writer's strike was not just because of money, but also because directors would title a movie as a "[my name] Movie" despite the fact that they didn't write it, and the screenwriters were understandably upset because they barely get credit as it is.

I mean, no one cares of Spike Lee calls his films "A Spike Lee Joint", because he writes and directs all his stuff.

Posted: **Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:27 pm**

Well, K, remember that he's running his mouth to the writers who work in those committees and he did try to tell them not to write to the penguins' desires, as that made bad writing.

And outside the US, what a writer writes often is pretty much what gets filmed. They have much tighter development schedules than US productions, which is why they're often very interesting, but less flashy or polished. There's just less that can go on at each step, because that costs money they don't have.

-Crissa

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:05 am**

Crissa wrote:Well, K, remember that he's running his mouth to the writers who work in those committees and he did try to tell them not to write to the penguins' desires, as that made bad writing.

He's running his mouth to writers working for him.... for the show he created.... and that he has many credits for writing and directing on. Basically, he's blaming them for not writing his show better when he was one of the people responsible for good writing. Maybe the only one.

Look at his filmography. I don't think the writing of such direct to video tripe as Red Belt means you get to tell anyone what makes a good story, even if he did do Ronin in the late 90s.

Here's his writing credits:

# "The Unit" (66 episodes, 2006-2009)
- Whiplash (2009) TV episode (creator)
- Best Laid Plans (2009) TV episode (creator)
- Flesh & Blood (2009) TV episode (creator)
- Hill 60 (2009) TV episode (creator)
- Hero (2009) TV episode (creator)
(61 more)
# Redbelt (2008) (written by)
# Edmond (2005) (play) (screenplay)
# Spartan (2004) (written by)
# Heist (2001/I) (written by)
... aka "Professional" - Japan (English title)
# Hannibal (2001) (screenplay)
# State and Main (2000) (written by)
# Lakeboat (2000) (play) (uncredited) (written by)

# The Winslow Boy (1999) (screenplay)
# Lansky (1999) (TV) (written by)
# Ronin (1998) (screenplay) (as Richard Weisz)
# Wag the Dog (1997) (screenplay)
# The Spanish Prisoner (1997) (written by)
# The Edge (1997) (written by)
# American Buffalo (1996) (play) (screenplay)
# Oleanna (1994) (play) (screenplay)
# Texan (1994) (TV) (written by)
# Vanya on 42nd Street (1994) (play translation)
# A Life in the Theater (1993) (TV) (play) (teleplay)
# Hoffa (1992) (written by)
# Glengarry Glen Ross (1992) (play) (screenplay)
# The Water Engine (1992) (TV) (play) (written by)
# Homicide (1991) (written by)
# Uncle Vanya (1991) (TV) (writer)

# We're No Angels (1989) (written by)
# "The Play on One" (1 episode, 1989)
- The Shawl (1989) TV episode (writer)
# Things Change (1988) (written by)
# House of Games (1987) (screenplay) (story)
# The Untouchables (1987) (written by)
# "Hill Street Blues" (1 episode, 1987)
- A Wasted Weekend (1987) TV episode (writer)
# About Last Night... (1986) (play "Sexual Perversity in Chicago")
# The Verdict (1982) (screenplay)
# The Postman Always Rings Twice (1981) (screenplay)

# A Life in the Theater (1979) (TV) (play)

So there are three good films there, and about 200 hours of crap no one cares about.

Now look at the credits for a less douchy screenwriter: Alex Kurtzman

# "Fringe" (42 episodes, 2008-2010)
- Episode #2.22 (2010) TV episode (creator)
- Episode #2.21 (2010) TV episode (creator)
- Overture (2010) TV episode (creator)
- Episode #2.19 (2010) TV episode (creator)
- Episode #2.18 (2010) TV episode (creator)
(37 more)

# Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (2009) (written by)
... aka "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (IMAX DMR version)" - Hong Kong (English title) (IMAX version)
... aka "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen - The IMAX Experience" - USA (IMAX version)
... aka "Transformer: Revenge" - Japan (English title)
# Star Trek (2009) (written by)
... aka "Star Trek (IMAX DMR version)" - Hong Kong (English title) (IMAX version)
... aka "Star Trek: The Future Begins" - Malaysia (English title)
... aka "Star Trek: The IMAX Experience" - USA (IMAX version)
# Transformers (2007) (screenplay) (story)
... aka "Transformers: The IMAX Experience" - USA (IMAX version)
# Mission: Impossible III (2006) (written by)
... aka "M:i:III" - International (English title) (promotional abbreviation), UK (promotional abbreviation), USA (promotional abbreviation)
# The Legend of Zorro (2005) (screenplay) (story)
... aka "Z" - USA (poster title)
# The Island (2005) (screenplay)
# The Secret Service (2004) (TV) (writer)
# "Alias" (10 episodes, 2001-2003)
- Succession (2003) TV episode (writer) (as Alex Kurtzman-Counter)
- A Free Agent (2003) TV episode (writer) (as Alex Kurtzman-Counter)
- Double Agent (2003) TV episode (writer) (as Alex Kurtzman-Counter)
- The Abduction (2002) TV episode (writer) (as Alex Kurtzman-Counter)
- Salvation (2002) TV episode (writer) (as Alex Kurtzman-Counter)
(5 more)
# "Jack of All Trades" (3 episodes, 2000)
- The Morning After (2000) TV episode (written by)
- Raging Bully (2000) TV episode (written by)
- The Floundering Father (2000) TV episode (written by)

# "Hercules: The Legendary Journeys" (14 episodes, 1997-1999)
- We'll Always Have Cyprus (1999) TV episode (teleplay)
- For Those of You Just Joining Us... (1999) TV episode (writer)
- Resurrection (1998) TV episode (writer)
- Faith (1998) TV episode (writer)
- Reunions (1998) TV episode (writer)
(9 more)

Now, I'll be the first to admit that the second Transformer's movie has a plot that sounds like it was written by a drunken four-year old, but the bulk of these credits are films and shows that basically printed money.

If Alex Kurtzman wants to give pointers on screenwriting, I'll listen despite the fact some of his movies are questionable; Mamet is famous for being a douche and writing a cliche' kind a dialogue, as far as I can tell.

The Unit has 69 episodes, and he's credited with writing 61 of them. He literally should have said "you guys don't make me look good enough."

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:28 am**

Well, your own point stands for the Transformer's movie: It was produced and directed by someone who has stated no respect for a script.

-Crissa

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:45 am**

I seem to recall some old joke about how you know an actress is new to Hollywood. She sleeps with the writer.

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:34 am**

My sister's commentary on Bleach:

She wrote:FINALLY! AIZEN! I LOVE YOU!
Someone EXPLAINED why the hero encountered progressively stronger foes without meeting any TOO strong. That's ALWAYS bothered me.

And Ichigo's Dad is way sexy on that last page. :3

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:36 am**

I just lurk here, so maybe K is making a really good (and prolonged joke) here, but that was a discussion of David Mamet, right? The one who "received Tony Award nominations for Glengarry Glen Ross (1984) and Speed-the-Plow (1988), as well as the Pulitzer Prize for Glengarry Glen Ross. And as a screenwriter, he received Oscar nominations for The Verdict (1982) and Wag the Dog (1997)."

I'm guessing it's got to be a joke based on the comparison to the guy who helped write Transformers, Star Trek and The Island. In fact, I now feel kind of silly for posting and being that guy who missed the sarcasm on the internet.

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:22 am**

dirkformica wrote:I just lurk here, so maybe K is making a really good (and prolonged joke) here, but that was a discussion of David Mamet, right? The one who "received Tony Award nominations for Glengarry Glen Ross (1984) and Speed-the-Plow (1988), as well as the Pulitzer Prize for Glengarry Glen Ross. And as a screenwriter, he received Oscar nominations for The Verdict (1982) and Wag the Dog (1997)."

I'm guessing it's got to be a joke based on the comparison to the guy who helped write Transformers, Star Trek and The Island. In fact, I now feel kind of silly for posting and being that guy who missed the sarcasm on the internet.

I wish I was making a joke, but at the end of the day he's received a couple of critical successes in a vast sea of failure.

Important themes and messages don't make for good entertainment, but they will get you critical success if written half-way competently. Glen Gary Glen Ross may have won him a Pulitzer, but it lost money in the theater. By any measure of fairness he should have given his prize money to cover the loss.

Have you seen Glen Gary Glen Ross? It's basically Death of a Salesmen with more profanity. The cast even called it "Death of a Fuckin' Salesman" during production.

I mean, look at Diablo Cody. That chick has an Oscar and she can't write her way out of a paper bag, or do you think Jennifer's Body is an unrecognized work of genius?

So yeh. For a guy who's recent work includes a canceled show where he has writing credit on 61 of 69 episodes and such flops as Red Belt, he should maybe be a little more careful when he tells writers they suck.

Or at least look up the word "irony." Every writer should know that one by heart.

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:41 am**

I see, money = quality. Understood.

(I liked it better when it was all a joke.

I mean that comparison CV is so hilarious.)

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:22 am**

Money earned is a poor way to judge art, but your previously suggested "awards" paradigm is perhaps even worse.

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:39 am**

The Lunatic Fringe wrote:Money earned is a poor way to judge art, but your previously suggested "awards" paradigm is perhaps even worse.

The problem is that art is, and always will be, subjective.

That's the irony in this situation. Mamet is trying to tell writers that if they had been better writers his show would not be canceled, and he can't produce a commercial success to save his life. He's acting like he's doing them a favor by sharing his wisdom when in fact his own track record is shoddy at best.

Irony. Look it up.

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:05 am**

K wrote:
The Lunatic Fringe wrote:Money earned is a poor way to judge art, but your previously suggested "awards" paradigm is perhaps even worse.
The problem is that art is, and always will be, subjective.

That's the irony in this situation. Mamet is trying to tell writers that if they had been better writers his show would not be canceled, and he can't produce a commercial success to save his life. He's acting like he's doing them a favor by sharing his wisdom when in fact his own track record is shoddy at best.

Irony. Look it up.

Ah, I didn't notice that he said that. You are correct.

I mostly take issue with dirkformica's idea that winning awards somehow makes one a great artist.

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:45 am**

I think you're on pretty shaky grounds accusing a show that went for four seasons on a major network of being a financial failure. And the rant in question is apparently from some time ago in any case. So K's scenario of someone lashing out at their fellow writers while the ship is going down on a failed product is just totally not applicable.

I've never seen an episode of The Unit. But things that go four seasons and then get ended after their viewership falls below ten million (to 9.7 million) are not "failures" by any stretch of the imagination. A failure is a show like Dollhouse, that got canceled in its second season, with only 2.2 million viewers.

-Username17

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:37 pm**

The Third Act Finale of the current story on MSPaintAdventures.com recently entered my top five times hardest rocked by an entertainment.

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:38 pm**

Well, everything about Dollhouse was pretty much a failure, wasn't it?

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:07 pm**

On the subject of television, anyone here watch Castle?

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:53 pm**

FrankTrollman wrote:I think you're on pretty shaky grounds accusing a show that went for four seasons on a major network of being a financial failure. And the rant in question is apparently from some time ago in any case. So K's scenario of someone lashing out at their fellow writers while the ship is going down on a failed product is just totally not applicable.

I've never seen an episode of The Unit. But things that go four seasons and then get ended after their viewership falls below ten million (to 9.7 million) are not "failures" by any stretch of the imagination. A failure is a show like Dollhouse, that got canceled in its second season, with only 2.2 million viewers.

-Username17

It didn't reach 100 episodes, so it can't be syndicated. That's a failure in TV land.

But seriously? He's promising houses in the hills to these writers if they can write better (meaning, in his style). It doesn't matter if he was doing it in the first season or the last, because it is still deeply ironic that he's giving advise on commercially successful writing when he seems incapable of producing it.

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:00 pm**

TOZ wrote:On the subject of television, anyone here watch Castle?

I do. I can't watch TV procedural most days, but this show is so good you forget the crime parts of it.

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:31 pm**

Starcraft - I have countless adrenalin rushes that spawned from multilayer. Smiley face nuke drop, zerg pincer maneuvers, the gateway assault, winning with a single arbiter, winning with the lost supply depot, SCV walls, overlord spamming. My crowning achievement would be defeating a fleet of battle-cruisers with zerglings.

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:52 pm**

TOZ wrote:On the subject of television, anyone here watch Castle?

My fiance does. Nathan Fillion is a totally solid actor.

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:07 pm**

TOZ wrote:On the subject of television, anyone here watch Castle?

Yeah. The mysteries are often painfully obvious, but it's a character-driven detective show so it doesn't matter. And those have a long history of being completely awesome. Fillion is just amazingly watchable. The father/daughter relationship on the show is one of the most touching things on TV and I'm looking forward to when Molly Quinn is 18 so they aren't limited in how much they can use her.

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:25 pm**

My wife and I download it. I might even get cable if there were a few more shows I enjoyed like Castle.

Posted: **Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:47 am**

Today's Irregular Webcomic.

Not the comic itself, but the accompanying rant on the evils of Monopoly (the tabletop game).

The Gaming Den

Moments when a piece of entertainment completely rocked you.