Zinegata wrote:
That's because you're still confusing domestic law with international law.
You're nuts.
The moment Catalan's government made it clear that they wished to proceed with independence regardless, the citizens who supported them technically became members of an opposing state.
First, no they didn't. They made it clear they were going to proceed with a vote ABOUT independence. At no point Monday did they become an opposing state.
That's why Frank is completely correct in saying "it's war". Because war is very much the complete suspension of regular domestic laws and norms.
You're both nuts with an absurd hypothetical, and no, it isn't. We've been at war repeatedly over the years, strangely you can still get pulled over for traffic violations and murder is still not ok.
And really, people need to stop with the fiction that there are still "laws" and "rules" when it comes to war. Somebody who machine-guns a crowd is called a mass-murderer in peacetime. Somebody who does that during wartime is called a hero if the people he guns down are wearing an enemy country's uniform. Indeed, in many cases such as with the World War 2 Wehrmacht, it would have been illegal under military law for a soldier to disobey orders to machine guns crowds of unresisting civilians.
Thats a damn weird example to bring up, because the legal principles established just after World War II say 'go fuck yourself and your crazy theory.'
The confusion at the moment lies with the fact that rebellions are ultimately about re-absorption of the rebelling territory for the original ruler, hence a measure of restraint was usually exercised by those fighting the rebels. From a domestic law standpoint, those people were not citizens of Spain while Catalan maintained the fiction of independence, but would be re-absorbed back into Spanish rule once the rebellion ends.
There is no 'fiction of independence,' you ass. Zero
sane people on Monday believed Catalan was suddenly independent.
What's happening here in this thread is really is just the typical American frivolous lawyering, where Catalanians who had expressly rejected their Spanish citizenship in favor of a new Catalanian one suddenly demand justice and protection from the very same Spanish regime they just rejected. Anywhere else such a ridiculous position would simply be called mass hypocrisy.
No, whats happening here is extreme theorizing that has no basis in reality. The Catalans don't believe they declared independence on Monday, 'cuz they didn't.
The Spanish don't believe the Catalans declared independence on Monday, cuz they didn't.
The EU, ditto.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41514398
Timeline of What Actually Happened in Reality Rather than Your Stupid Fucking Head wrote:1 October: Catalonia holds banned referendum on independence, defying Spanish government and a Constitutional Court ruling; Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont says the independence camp has won.
2 October: The European Commission says it regards the referendum as illegal and an independent Catalonia would be outside the EU.
3 October: In a TV address, King Felipe said referendum organisers had showed their "disrespect to the powers of the state" and broken the rule of law.
4 October: Mr Puigdemont says a declaration of independence will come within days; the government says it will not give in to "blackmail"
5 October: Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy urges Catalan leaders not to declare independence. Constitutional Court bans session of Catalan parliament due on Monday.
Translation, because you're obviously a complete fuckwit:
No one declared independence.
Spain is talking about the
rule of law, invoking courts and generally trying to talk to people in Catalan's mini government (while trying to stop said government from having parliamentary meetings).
They are NOT invading and reclaiming territory of a suddenly independent state. Seriously, this isn't a thing that is happening.
Some fucker in Catalan's government is still threatening to declare independence at some point ('days') in the future. [Hence, logically, it did not happen in the past]
Your bizarre anti-American rhetoric is not relevant to this conversation in any way at all. A referendum on independence is not independence. I'm honestly not sure how much further I can break this down for you.
But Spain pulling a page from Franco's book on Monday with the police isn't going to make this situation better. Because he was the last fucker that took away their autonomy with violence, and that comparison isn't going to escape many people.
The point is you need to have all the organs when you start talking independence
... just like no one, ever.
, not declare independence and act shocked when relatively lightly armed police (rather than actual military units) walk all over your territory and beat up your supporters.
And theirs. Though, again, not like anyone declared independence (yet)
Dogbert wrote:
Saying Spain didn't extend basic human rights to non-citizens (I don't know, I only know my own constitution, so AFAIK Mexico might be the only country who extends protection to anyone within its borders, we're chumps that way), Spain may be within its legal right to pull a Milosevic (again, I don't know). Granted, it would not be right, it would not be humane, but it would be "legal." Let's not mistake the two.
What? No, seriously, what? Stop reading what the crazy people are saying. It is not relevant to what is going on.
Spanish police pushed in the faces of a bunch of voters on Monday. Literally everything else is legal wrangling between the Spanish government and Catalan the semi-autonomous state {as in 'administrative district of Spain'}
That BBC article wrote:But the Catalan question is risky for him {PM Rajoy}. His apparent inertia this week is coming under fire from the Spanish left - who want him to start a dialogue with Catalan separatists - and the harder right who want him to take immediate action, shutting the Catalan government down, bringing the reins of power back to Madrid. Spaniards call it "the nuclear option".
Seriously. The 'nuclear option' is shutting down the Catalan government. Not invading with tanks. There would definitely be protests (and probably violent ones) if they did, but taking away basic human rights from 'non citizens' isn't on the table. Non citizens aren't on the table.