Pathfinder Is Still Bad

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:21 pm

I'm just pushing back against:

hogarth wrote: people would claim that "invisibility = greater invisibility" without a disclaimer saying otherwise.

Nobody is claiming any such thing. They're claiming that the item refers to the special ability invisibility, which is MORE LIKE the spell greater invisibility than the spell invisibility in that the special ability invisibility is not dropped when you make an attack.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:25 pm

hogarth wrote:
RobbyPants wrote:So, after all that crap about the Ring of Blinking... they just changed their minds?
I think it's much more likely that whoever wrote the description of the item got sloppy and didn't realise that people would claim that "invisibility = greater invisibility" without a disclaimer saying otherwise.

So, is this like the inverse of the Crossbow Sniper thing? Instead of actually making a feat that does nothing because they don't know the rules, they made an item that's really useful to rogues because they don't know the rules?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:49 pm

Why is that so hard to believe, RobbyPants? If a game designer releases an expansion option that by a strict literal reading makes it underpowered compared to its intent, that was intentional all along and you should go by the more PC-screwing ruling. And you should also shut up about RAI; we're going with RAW. Yet via Morton's Fork contrariwise if a game designer releases an expansion option that by a strict literal reading makes it overpowered compared to its intent, they fucked up and you should go by the more PC-screwing ruling. And you should also shut up about RAW; we're going with RAI.

Rule Negative Two, yo'. Learn it, live it, love it.

MfA · Post by **MfA** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:25 pm

They printed the sniper goggles too ... maybe someone at Paizo just likes rogues?

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:06 pm

Hogarth wrote:The idea that one of the writers for Paizo was lazy and/or confused and/or stupid when writing that item is so unbelievable to you, that the very suggestion of it must mean that the suggester has some kind of ulterior motive?

The rules are a page of text right there. The possibility that game developers are stupid is not surprising to anyone, but how stupid any given game developer may or may not be has fuck all to do with the piece of text which is simply objectively what it is. You cannot actually defend what the rules say on the basis that you have the ability to read minds.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:31 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Why is that so hard to believe, RobbyPants?

It's not hard to believe. In fact, it's the only thing I can believe, barring some unspoken backpedaling that involves stealth-buffing rogues.

I expect to see this ring quietly nerfed in the near future, or to have another retroactive "ruling" made to nerf it since it was "always that way from the beginning".

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:56 pm

So, pardon my ignorance, but in the context of pathfinder, would someone be willing to tell me what the pros and cons of a wizard specializing in conjuration vs transmutation would be, even if telling me comes in the form of just a link for me to go read?

Whatever · Post by **Whatever** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:06 pm

Archmage Joda wrote:So, pardon my ignorance, but in the context of pathfinder, would someone be willing to tell me what the pros and cons of a wizard specializing in conjuration vs transmutation would be, even if telling me comes in the form of just a link for me to go read?

There are two major differences:
1) you get to choose from a different list of minor bullshit abilities
2) you get extra spells in a different school

#2 is more important. For the low-mid levels, Conjuration just offers better spells than Transmutation. It evens out a bit as the levels go up, but you'll never be disappointed that you wrote Conjurer on your character sheet.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:13 pm

Whatever wrote:1) you get to choose from a different list of minor bullshit abilities

...and/or you can cherry-pick the one or two pretty good abilities, like the divination bonus to Init and ability to always act in the surprise round or the teleportation school's swift action teleport.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:25 pm

Hey, I know Pathfinder is still... um, bad, and stuff, but I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good module for a beginner group? A friend of mine is taking a stab at doing this- he's familiar with the conventions of fantasy but has never actually played D&D. (and it's in Montanasota or something, or I would have volunteered to MC it for him).

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:16 pm

Archmage Joda wrote:So, pardon my ignorance, but in the context of pathfinder, would someone be willing to tell me what the pros and cons of a wizard specializing in conjuration vs transmutation would be, even if telling me comes in the form of just a link for me to go read?

The specializations are actually online Here.

Transmutation specialization is bullshit because it gives you the special power to get minor bonuses to melee combat that still in no way add up to being actually good at melee combat. Conjuration specialization is awesome because it gives you extra uses of 4th level spells that are awesome.

-Username17

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:20 pm

JigokuBosatsu wrote:Hey, I know Pathfinder is still... um, bad, and stuff, but I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good module for a beginner group? A friend of mine is taking a stab at doing this- he's familiar with the conventions of fantasy but has never actually played D&D. (and it's in Montanasota or something, or I would have volunteered to MC it for him).

In this thread, if you scroll down a little some people are talking about paizo adventure paths.

MisterDee · Post by **MisterDee** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:11 am

JigokuBosatsu wrote:Hey, I know Pathfinder is still... um, bad, and stuff, but I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good module for a beginner group? A friend of mine is taking a stab at doing this- he's familiar with the conventions of fantasy but has never actually played D&D. (and it's in Montanasota or something, or I would have volunteered to MC it for him).

Well, at the very least he should stay away from the Legacy of Fire AP: it is made of feces and rotted semen.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:18 am

After reading that thread I recommended Age of Worms and Shackled City. There is a part of me that hopes his campaign crashes and burns and I get to run him through Tome or something when he gets back.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:31 am

JigokuBosatsu wrote:Hey, I know Pathfinder is still... um, bad, and stuff, but I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good module for a beginner group? A friend of mine is taking a stab at doing this- he's familiar with the conventions of fantasy but has never actually played D&D. (and it's in Montanasota or something, or I would have volunteered to MC it for him).

I'd recommend starting with something free and relatively easy like Master of the Fallen Fortress or We Be Goblins. The price is right, anyways.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:03 pm

JigokuBosatsu wrote:After reading that thread I recommended Age of Worms and Shackled City. There is a part of me that hopes his campaign crashes and burns and I get to run him through Tome or something when he gets back.

Trying to learn the Pathfinder RPG by playing adventures written for 3.5 strikes me as a bad idea.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:46 pm

Aha. Looking at that thread again, you're right. I'll pass on your suggestions from the previous post.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:53 pm

This will be news to most readers: By the end of 2010, the Pathfinder RPG had already overtaken D&D as the bestselling RPG. It would take almost half a year before industry magazine ICv2 first reported it, and several quarters more before some people were willing to accept it as fact, but internally, we already knew it was true.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:01 pm

If Mike Mearls wasn't helming 5E D&D Paizo's ascension would send me into hate convulsions. But since he is, I'm just going to do this pouty hatah expression.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:52 pm

Well, I'm glad they 'just knew' things without waiting for trivial little things like facts, reports and statistics, but... eh.

Is there any context for the quote at all? It obviously came after the point at which White Wolf had set themselves on fire, but if it was a realization that occurred during the height of the 4e marketing campaign of 'If you liked 3e, go fuck yourself and go away,' this is hardly a shocking achievement, since no other major RPG studios even exist.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:43 pm

Voss wrote:Well, I'm glad they 'just knew' things without waiting for trivial little things like facts, reports and statistics, but... eh.

I assume they were getting reports from vendors and from other people in the industry. So "reports" -- yes. "Facts" and "statistics" -- who knows.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:10 pm

Guess I should have quoted more.

We'd heard it from nearly all of our hobby trade distributors; we'd heard it from buyers at book chains like Barnes & Noble and Borders; we could see it using industry sales trackers such as BookScan; we were even regularly coming out on top on Amazon's bestseller charts. Each individual market we sold in had us either tied with or outselling D&D, and none of those sources counted our considerable direct sales on paizo.com. Put all of those things together, and it was clear: Pathfinder had become the first RPG ever to oust D&D from top spot.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:17 pm

Are they really claiming that in the long years between TSR and WotC, D&D still outsold everything else? Anybody know if that is actually true?

In my head at least that should overlap at least slightly with Vampire.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:50 pm

I'm pretty sure they're just being idiots.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Pathfinder outperformed its direct competition, though. "3e but different + competent marketing" vs "D&D but not + we don't even WANT you to play our game, you stupid D&D players" isn't really a contest.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:32 am

Yeah, pretty sure that White Wolf was outselling TSR in the late nineties. That statement by Paizo is only true if you mean that a game's edition outsold a D&D edition. Pathfinder outsold 4e D&D. Full stop. Vampire, while it beat the pants off AD&D in monthly sales, can't actually say that about any edition. If you try to pull something fancy like claiming that 2nd edition Revised counts as an edition, then you have to do the same for Vampire and that goes badly for White Wolf because they had so many editions between 1991 and 1999 (Vampire: Dark Ages: Revised Edition, anyone?). If you compare Vampire in up to 1999 against AD&D 2nd edition in total, it comes out poorly because AD&D was winning pretty hard in the early nineties and of course was unopposed by Vampire in 1989.

-Username17