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Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:49 pm

I apologize for this minor thread-hijacking (though it's not really the first), but what the fuck is up with the Monster Manual II? CR 15 creatures with 90 hp and 14 AC, all those horrible high CR creatures with hundreds of hit points and intelligences of effectively 0, the complete lack of any relationship between CR, damage, attack, and AC...

I started with 3.5, and thus have no experience with the 3.0 Monster Manual, but I'm assuming it wasn't that bad. Did the designers just do some sort of throw-darts-at-numbers-while-blindfolded type thing, or were they really that incompetent?

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:56 pm

They're really that incompetent.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:33 pm

The hit point and AC thing is actually easily explainable. Constitution causes hit points to scale a lot. Having a constitution score of 28 will net nearly double the hit points you'd gain from your 10 HD. Similarly, while there are a few guidelines for increasing AC with HD, there are for the most part aren't any consistent rules. A hill giant putting on a suit of +1 fullplate will see their AC shoot up into the stratosphere for a trifling amount of gold. Similarly, since creatures start out with a base of 10 AC with size decreasing what you get, a lot of gigantic critters have piss-poor ACs while others are tough as DM penis monsters dragons because the rules just slaps on however much natural armor it feels like.

The biggest problem really are stats. There are no hard and fast rules for how many attribute points a monster should get at a certain level. It's a fucking shame, too, because this would actually be easy to adjust. If, you know, the six-attribute system of D&D wasn't fucked up. But let's play pretend and say that it isn't. Then creatures should have a base strength/dexterity/constitution/armor score according to their size and a base intelligence/wisdom/charisma score according to their type. When you gain levels, you gain a finite number of points to sink into any of these attributes. When you create monsters you also get to fiddle around stats in the same categories, though you can't trade physical stats for mental ones.

How hard was that?

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:54 pm

Speaking of the Monster Manual, Pathfinder released a "Bonus Bestiary" for Free RPG Day. Someone has pointed out on the Paizo boards that it looks like there's no such thing as a secondary natural attack any more; all natural attacks use full BAB and full Str bonus to damage.

Because closet trolls needed another boost, of course.

Jacob_Orlove · Post by **Jacob_Orlove** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:55 pm

The MMII is full of crazy broken monsters too. Check out the CR 9 one that casts Disjunction and a variety of other high level spells. Actually, basically anything in that book that cast spells is unreal.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:37 pm

One of my favorite shitty monsters are the Weirds from Frostburn.

CR 15 mondo-stat Elementals with tons of HPs that have a nice set of powers and oh yeah they're also 18th level Sorcerers. Whee!

They're no CR12 Disjunctive Bite spider though.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:44 pm

Come on, elemental weirds make great polymorph bait!

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:49 pm

NineInchNall wrote:Come on, elemental weirds make great polymorph bait!

Damn right they do. The inability to leave their elemental pool is an ability that they lose when they transform. The 18th level Sorcerer casting is not.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:49 pm

I think you mean great druid wildshaping bait, since they'll snag the spellcasting of the weirds, too.

I never even bothered to buy any monster manuals aside from the first one for 3.0E. If I wanted new monsters I would plunder them from Oriental Adventures or any of the motherfucking Faerun books. I own both monster manuals for 4E. That's how balogna-fucked those things were.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:48 pm

Blicero wrote:I apologize for this minor thread-hijacking (though it's not really the first), but what the fuck is up with the Monster Manual II? CR 15 creatures with 90 hp and 14 AC, all those horrible high CR creatures with hundreds of hit points and intelligences of effectively 0, the complete lack of any relationship between CR, damage, attack, and AC...

I started with 3.5, and thus have no experience with the 3.0 Monster Manual, but I'm assuming it wasn't that bad. Did the designers just do some sort of throw-darts-at-numbers-while-blindfolded type thing, or were they really that incompetent?

MM2 = Book of Random Numbers. You got it in one. That's the book that has level 19s with +19 to hit and piddly shit damage, level 9s that spam game raping spells, and level 10s that die in 1 hit and kill you in one hit, no save no miss nothing.

The fact the Paizils use it so heavily is, alone a testament to their Fail.

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:18 pm

Roy wrote:MM2 = Book of Random Numbers. You got it in one. That's the book that has level 19s with +19 to hit and piddly shit damage, level 9s that spam game raping spells, and level 10s that die in 1 hit and kill you in one hit, no save no miss nothing.

Never used the MM2 much, which critters are these out of curiosity?

DMReckless · Post by **DMReckless** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:19 pm

[quote="Roy]
The fact the Paizils use it so heavily is, alone a testament to their Fail.[/quote]

Shenanigans.

Paizo uses open monsters from MM I and the Tome of Horrors, as well as their own monsters.

They do not make heavy use of the MM II. Calling them on something they actually do is one thing, blaming them for something they haven't done is another altogether.

Probably the only time they ever did make "heavy" use of it was when they were doing "official" stuff for WOTC and were being used to advertise the MM II.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:26 pm

Previn wrote:
Roy wrote:MM2 = Book of Random Numbers. You got it in one. That's the book that has level 19s with +19 to hit and piddly shit damage, level 9s that spam game raping spells, and level 10s that die in 1 hit and kill you in one hit, no save no miss nothing.
Never used the MM2 much, which critters are these out of curiosity?

Famine Spirit, some construct thing whose name I forget, Spellweaver.

The last does it via 6 Magic Missiles a round. 60-150. That will one shot most level 10s. It gets worse if you use more of them vs higher level PCs, because each of them are doing that. And the fact they die in one hit from anything (35 HP, single digit saves) doesn't matter if they act first.

Edit: Read their adventure paths. I'd say at least a third of their stuff is from there.

Age of Worms for example. The first encounter is not, but then the next 2 or 3 are. And it goes from there. While the exact order depends on what actions the party takes, it's very heavy on the MM2 even at the start.

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:48 pm

There's also a bunch of creatures (notably the Fiend Wurm) that are really just CR 6 (if not lower) ish challenges that took Viagra of Death that suddenly gave them way bigger numbers. The game designers expect that monsters with CR 6 tactics are good challenges for epic characters.

The Malebranche is CR 9 but has like 170 hp and around a +25 melee attack bonus, Power Attack, a two-handed weapon, and a 25-esque AC.

Ethereal Dopplegangers are CR 15, have 90 hit points, an AC of like 14, and ability scores that an average-rolling first level PC would be mildly envious of.

There's creatures like the Desmodu (giant bat people), the Braxat (rhino people?), and the Rampager (which has possibly the dumbest artwork in a WotC monster book I've ever seen), none of which have any interesting mechanical or flavorful ideas and are all just basically page-takers.

The Adamantine Clockwork horror, CR 9, can spam game disjunction.

There's the Ocean Strider, a Huge, 30-HD, CR 18 fey with 19 Str and art reminiscent of Ultraman Tiga.

Seemingly 90% of the entries were created by a random number and random name generator.

I've noticed a lot of similar problems in the Faerun monster book and the Fiend Folio, but MMII is the worst by far.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:58 pm

Wow. I never really looked closely, but the MM2 Weirds are even worse.

CR12 creatures with fat statblocks that cast as an 18th level Sorcerer. Ugh.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:04 pm

So I had a look at the Paizils again.

Did Valeros have to burn a feat (Double Slice or whatever) to get it? EDIT: yeah, just checked, and he did. [[SECOND EDIT: Ninja'd by Zaister!!!]] So now he's -2 with all attacks, and another -5/-10 with iteratives, and half strength on off-hand unless he spends a feat... but the monsters are full attack, full damage with no feat expenditure (they used to be -2 with secondaries, and half strength, AFTER spending a feat on Multiattack). Because when we're talking multiple attack forms, most monsters use claws and bite.

So Valeros just went from cool-but-poorly-constructed (TWF for a non-rogue) to being hands-down inferior to level-appropriate melee monsters: Valeros is 2 feats behind to get -2 to all attacks (vs. their -0), and his second "claw" (his 1st iterative attack) is at -7 instead of -0. Yes, he gets bonus feats, but melee monsters will usually have more HD than he does, so they're picking up extra feats for that in addition to now getting "Super-Duper Improved Multiattack" for free.

Proposed quick fix: let him spend his fighter bonus feats on Sneak Attack instead of Double Slice and the like. At 14th level, 7 bonus feats = sneak attack +7d6 when flanking = he's a formidable threat with two weapons, instead of a bungling child. Even if he just swapped Double Slice and Two-Weapon Rend for Sneak Attack +2d6, he'd be way ahead of the game whenever one of his friends sets him up for a flank.

...Wait, he wasn't before?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:33 pm

Frankly the Monster Manual 2 is one of the best monster manuals ever published. And yes, I am dead fucking serious. Every monster book is full of dead space. Every monster you never use is a page that wastes your life. The value of a monster manual is therefore not to be found in how shitty the monsters you'll never use are, but in how many monsters are cool enough to be used. The Monster Manual II rivals the Monster Manual I in that key category. I've used:

Moon Rats
Coralax
Myconids
Ash Rats
Ether Scarabs
Raggomuffyn
Abyssal Maws
Dreadguard
Needlefolk
Phase Wasp
Dire Toads
Fire Bats
Grells
Asperi
Spell Stiched Template
Yak Folk
Chain Golem
Clockwork Horrors (seriously)
Marrash
Sirine
Stained Glass Golem
Monster f Legend Template
Breathdrinker
Scorpionfolk
Brass Golem
Leechwalker
Forest Giants
Elemental Weirds (seriously)
Sun Giants
Death Knights
Titanic Toad
Gravcrawler
Famine Spirit
Ragewind

That's fuckng awesome compared to other monster books. Yeah, it falls apart seriously after CR 5 or so, but that hardly even matters because so does the game. The Monster Manual 3 doesn't have 34 monsters you'll ever use. It's not even close.

-Username17

Meikle641 · Post by **Meikle641** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:49 pm

I'd have to agree there, Franky. MM2 may have some wonky numbers, but a lot of the stuff in it is pretty cool. One of my DMs agrees, and has used a few of them.

Still doesn't top the Arms and Equipment Guide for me, at least. I <3 mundane items.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:54 pm

Lol, what? MM3 = best monster book. Then 1 is 2nd, and 2 is dead fucking last. Seriously, are you fucking trolling us? Because that's some truly Epic work there.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:20 am

IIRC MM3 was filled with, "We gave them class levels, did we do good mommy? Did we?" cookie cutter monsters that weren't worth the space.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:47 am

Akula wrote:IIRC MM3 was filled with, "We gave them class levels, did we do good mommy? Did we?" cookie cutter monsters that weren't worth the space.

That was MM4.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:20 am

MM3 is what introduced us to one of the premier polymorph forms, the war troll. Huge stats, big natural armor, large size, a generally humanoid form, and a save vs. dazing on each attack.

I never understood why people complained about it. It's not like casters bothered with it. it was always just a 2xPAO for the melee warriors in the party.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:32 am

Because polymorph became much less useful for fighters after 3.5E came out--to actually change someone into a badass for a decent length of time you need to wait until level 15 instead of level 7.

It's sort of like those 9th level 'summon elemental' spells. Yes, they're worse than the other spells in the cleric/wizards' arsenals. But having one of those babies in your corner pocket is still better than having another high-level sword-based class.

Same for the war troll. While a lot of casters wouldn't have bothered with it, it makes them strictly better melee combatants than the swordies.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:55 am

Ahem. Buy two scrolls.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:53 am

The Monster Manual 3 gave us the War Troll and the Arrow Demon. Tw of the bestest polymorph forms if for some strange reason you think it makes fuck all difference if your polymorph form makes you good at hitting enemies with weapons. And... that's pretty much it. I mean sure, I've fought Witch Knives and Summoning Oozes and Bonedrinkers - but I was fucking embarrassed for the DM because those monsters are stupid. And I think it's important to note that those are also pretty much the only monsters I've seen hit the table from the Monster Manual III.
Because while the Stained Glass Golem pretty much writes itself an encounter (and that encounter was totally fucking awesome by the way), no way no how does anyone think that a "Web Golem" is anything more or less than stupid.

There's a fair number of monsters that are just palette swaps of normal monsters. Gnoll -> Flind; Lizardfolk -> Blackscale Lizardfolk; Ogre -> Skullcrusher Ogre; Otyugh -> Lifeleech Otyugh. And yeah, that's dumb. But the real problem is that almost none of those monsters have any traction at all. The Monster Manual 2 had the Avolokia, and that was a bad thing. It was a bad thing because the monster is just a fucking mess with stupid appendages sticking out and weird unthemed magic powers handed out basically at random. It's a low point for traction in the MM2. But the MM3 has Vasuthants, Skindancers, Witchknives, Shrieking Terrors, and the Plague Bush. That's really bad.

Very problematically, the only monster in there that has much traction is the Drowned. And those fuckers are unsafe at any speed because their sphere of automatic drowning is fucking broken as fuck. The MM3 is a worthless book.

-Username17