The End of 4e D&D.

[Red_Rob]

I guess I've never played with people who gamed the mechanics. We would try to roleplay what would make sense for our characters to do, not what made the best mechanical sense.

If these are different then either the game you are playing is badly designed or the world you are playing in makes no sense.

What makes sense for your characters to do is the most effective thing your characters can do. Trying to pretend otherwise makes the characters seem stupid. If it is better for your super smart Wizard to blow through his spells and then retreat then that is what your character should do, and attempting to soldier on regardless of this fact means you are not really roleplaying your supposedly intelligent character correctly.

Now, if its not the best course of action for whatever reason (Time limit, possibility of enemy using the rest time to get reinforcements etc.) then fine. But saying that you were roleplaying better by having your characters make bad choices from the information they had available seems odd.

[Danchild]

Danchild wrote:
The thing about spellcasters is that they allow the 5 minute workday to actually be a successful tactic. Teleportation or rope trick allows for an immediate 'safe'zone.

A party without a spellcaster has to slog it back to town and hope they don't meet anything nasty along the way.

That's fail logic, because if you might run into encounters on the way back to town, you are better off finding a way to rest before you walk back.... so you are still resting whenever you meaningfully deplete your powers rather than pushing forward. I mean, walking back after you've depleted all your powers means that if you run into someone you are screwed.

Without teleportation and other various auto-rest powers, people will just spike the doors closed in a room and rest that way.

Can you please explain how exactly that is fail logic. I am the first to admit my skills in critical thinking are lacking. I did state the possibility of encountering something nasty on the walk back to town.

How is holing up in enemy territory safer than withdrawing, either via normal movement or via magic? Assuming a non static dungeon, how is spiking a door shut different from a rope trick? This is not a criticism of the tactic, I have seen players entrench their characters and withdraw. Withdrawal is usually a response to a grievous beatdown or intelligent enemies in my experience. Conversely, entrenchment occurs when there is no active threat around, or the active threats are not that clever (mindless undead, animals, etc.).

edit: i broke the quotes.

[Archmage]

Camping out in enemy territory isn't automatically safer than withdrawing. But it might be. It all depends on what's more likely to work given the situation.

The rope trick example is used because it is literally impossible for enemies to do anything to characters in a rope trick, assuming they know it's even there. You really can "camp" in the middle of a dungeon no matter what the dungeon environment is like because you're going to sleep in a pocket dimension where you can't be detected by divinations and no one has any way to know you're there or harm you.

You are going to rest wherever it's safest. It doesn't actually matter what the specifics are. It's true that having a spellcaster gives you easy access to a safe spot. But that doesn't mean parties without casters are necessarily required to haul ass back to town; it's just more likely since they can't make any area safe.

[Danchild]

I am not even going to pretend to be as clever or as rational as some of the people on this forum. I will say this though.

If the PC's decide to use mundane methods to hole up in a dungeon, by using spikes or barricades, the DM can have NPC's use mundane methods to interrupt the rest. Whether it is a bunch of kobold bullyboys with hatchets or dire rats chewing through the door, the PC's are forced into an encounter before they can rest.

The same goes for a withdrawal back to town. If the Dm wants the PC's to be ambushed, they are forced into an encounter before they can rest.

As for rope trick, it is a magical method of holing up in a dungeon. Magical effects to not cross the threshold of a rope trick, it does not mean they can not affect the threshold of a rope trick. If the DM decides that it is detected and dispelled by a goblin shaman and his cronies, then the PC's are forced into an encounter before they can rest.

If the Dm decides to force encounters on PC's all of the time, then the DM is just being a dick. Used sparingly on the other hand, it can make a plot more dramatic.

I agree that a set number of encounters per day does not make for a good story. Recharge mechanics are something I have not seen done perfectly in any RPG. IMHO, the 2e and 3e rest mechanics were wonky, but workable. Far better than 4e's. I lack any experience in game design however, so my opinion is worth shit. Take it for what you will.

[Aktariel]

Rope Trick
When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free.

Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

If you can see invisible, you can try to do something to it, but unless your spells cross planes, you can't do shit - there's nothing there.

Unless, of course, you're just being a conductor on the "My DM is Dick" railroad.

[Psychic Robot]

To be fair, rope trick is kind of a bucket of dongs. Doesn't mean that it's not a valid tactic, though. One of my DMs ruled we couldn't rest in the extradimensional space because it was too cramped.

[Crissa]

What happens if the dungeon is an extradimentional space?

-Crissa

[Danchild]

The spell creates a pocket dimension with an extradimensional interface.

The pocket dimension can not be effected externally as written.

The interface can be detected and effected externally. Because nothing says that it can't.

[Fuchs]

One would question why rope trick was in the game if people resting wherever and whenever they wanted was not wanted.

I banned the spell, and I try to not split up adventures in encounters when DMing.

[Aharon]

Mind Flayers (and other things that have Planeshift as (sp) or (su)) can shift into a Rope Trick because they don't need a focus, but I wouldn't use that unless my players are warned. I told them that using rope trick is fine, but that there are counters such as the one above, and they should be careful when to use it (for example, not in a dungeon with hordes of mind flayers )

[Username17]

Mind Flayers (and other things that have Planeshift as (sp) or (su)) can shift into a Rope Trick because they don't need a focus, but I wouldn't use that unless my players are warned. I told them that using rope trick is fine, but that there are counters such as the one above, and they should be careful when to use it (for example, not in a dungeon with hordes of mind flayers )

You need greater plane shift to avoid ending up 100 miles off course in a plane that is four meters across.

-Username17

[magnuskn]

Well, Pathfinder fixed Rope Trick... now the Rope cannot be pulled up or hidden by any means.

[Kaelik]

Well, Pathfinder fixed Rope Trick... now the Rope cannot be pulled up or hidden by any means.

What do you want Rope Trick to do for PCs?

If the answer is "absolutely nothing" then yes, Pathfinder fixed it, but so would banning it.

If the answer is "something" then in fact, it was not fixed at all.

[magnuskn]

Well, Pathfinder fixed Rope Trick... now the Rope cannot be pulled up or hidden by any means.

What do you want Rope Trick to do for PCs?

If the answer is "absolutely nothing" then yes, Pathfinder fixed it, but so would banning it.

If the answer is "something" then in fact, it was not fixed at all.

So its either "be too good" or "do nothing at all"?

At the very least, it's a good defensible position.

[Username17]

Well, Pathfinder fixed Rope Trick... now the Rope cannot be pulled up or hidden by any means.

What do you want Rope Trick to do for PCs?

If the answer is "absolutely nothing" then yes, Pathfinder fixed it, but so would banning it.

If the answer is "something" then in fact, it was not fixed at all.

This.

Also, what the fucking hell is

The rope cannot be removed or hidden.

supposed to mean? What happens if the rope is removed or hidden? If you put a tarp in front of the rope, how does that not hide the rope?

Pathfailure's attempts to fix problems by issuing totally unparsable nerfs doesn't actually fix anything, it just makes the game unplayable.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

What do you want Rope Trick to do for PCs?

If the answer is "absolutely nothing" then yes, Pathfinder fixed it, but so would banning it.

If the answer is "something" then in fact, it was not fixed at all.

That's a good question. Really having a second level spell that provides an unfindable hiding spot is way beyond what it should do. As for what it can do, I'm not really sure what it's role is to be. It existed basically as a spell to make the 5 minute workday almost unstoppable, and little else.

In other words, it doesn't do anything good for the game.

I'm really not sure what a spell like that *should* do.

[Kaelik]

So its either "be too good" or "do nothing at all"?

At the very least, it's a good defensible position.

No, it either does something: Makes PCs able to rest.

Or it does nothing: Doesn't do that, or anything else.

It's a "defensible position" that costs a 3rd level spell at level 5 or a 2nd level spell at level 9.

So either you spend a third level spell on a defensible position that isn't defensible, because the rope is the target of a dispel magic, or you just teleport.

"No one is allowed to use Rope Trick." is a defensible position.

"The rope cannot be hidden" is not.

[magnuskn]

So its either "be too good" or "do nothing at all"?

At the very least, it's a good defensible position.

No, it either does something: Makes PCs able to rest.

Or it does nothing: Doesn't do that, or anything else.

It's a "defensible position" that costs a 3rd level spell at level 5 or a 2nd level spell at level 9.

So either you spend a third level spell on a defensible position that isn't defensible, because the rope is the target of a dispel magic, or you just teleport.

"No one is allowed to use Rope Trick." is a defensible position.

"The rope cannot be hidden" is not.

With "a defensible position" I meant the situational sort, not the literary one. ^^

[RobbyPants]

I guess I've never played with people who gamed the mechanics. We would try to roleplay what would make sense for our characters to do, not what made the best mechanical sense. Even the munchkins and min/maxers would progress "in character" after char gen.

Yes, while the players are gaming the mechanics, do realize that these mechanics are visible to the characters. It's not something like an obscure +2 to hit, or something that the PCs can't "see". We're talking about immutable laws of magic. "You rest eight hours and get back all of your spells." The PCs know this. So, barring time constraints or giving up the element of surprise, it's optimal to take things one encounter at a time, and leave just enough left over to rest.

So the resource management rules of the game have a direct, predictable impact on the PCs in the game.

As for rope tricks and teleports, I have a litany of things that a moderately accomplished spellcaster could do that could either screw over or TPK a party who has given up situational awareness that have nothing to do with pressing time limits. I suspect after two or three attempts any party trying that shit would be heavily discouraged if they just decided in the middle of the dungeon/whatever to port to safety to rest.

Yeah, once an enemy caster knows you're there, you have to be extremely careful. Although, by the time you can Teleport, a level-appropriate caster has probably been watching the party wander through his home turf since they crossed the threshold, so he'd already be prepared for the PCs. Sure, if you rest for a day, so can he, but he probably had most/all of his spells anyway, so all he's doing is memorizing new ones. The PCs are memorizing new ones and replenishing spend slots. They're coming back comparatively stronger.

[hogarth]

No surprises here, but Phil Athans, the editor of the D&D novels line, just got canned. And according to a friend of his, he said that 4E is viewed as a complete bust and that Magic has had its best year ever.

[Doom]

I wouldn't put too much stock in the novels guy being canned. I queried them a few years ago, and their rejection letter said back then that they were shutting down their fiction publishing, and thus not considering any books.

Following that link, you've got questionable quote there....he mighta said it, but it's a "some guy said he said" situation, as near as I can tell.

I'm pretty reluctant to trash him for writing bad license books, especially for WotC. It's very hard to write a good license book (Jordan's Conan being a glaring exception), and WotC has notoriously restrictive rules that doubtless make it borderline impossible.

[Lago PARANOIA]

They must be in really dire straights to shut down their publishing market. I mean, your books have to really, really suck ass not to make any profit off of those when you already have access to a printer.

Regardless, if M:tG is still going well (showing that WotC, just D&D) what are the chances of Hasbro selling the D&D IP? Here's hoping that someone good will snatch it up.

[hogarth]

I wouldn't put too much stock in the novels guy being canned. I queried them a few years ago, and their rejection letter said back then that they were shutting down their fiction publishing, and thus not considering any books.

Well, I couldn't give a rat's ass about D&D fiction. But still, it has to say something that fifteen years ago D&D novels were on the New York Times bestseller list and now they're giving up on them completely.

Following that link, you've got questionable quote there....he mighta said it, but it's a "some guy said he said" situation, as near as I can tell.

Yes, take it with a grain of salt. I suspect it's true, though.

[virgil]

I think D&D is still too likely a guarantee of a return on its investment for Hasbro to give up. As for someone good snatching the IP, I've been getting more and more disappointed with the roleplaying community as a whole; the proofreading is atrocious compared to any other publishing medium, the financial system is low-paying and opaque, writers and players alike have abysmally low standards for rules quality while being unusually defensive of any critique of said rules (noticeably less so for flavour, oddly), and probably several other things I've forgotten about.

[Just another user]

Regardless, if M:tG is still going well (showing that WotC, just D&D) what are the chances of Hasbro selling the D&D IP? Here's hoping that someone good will snatch it up.

I'm no expert but from what I've heard around, chance is very little. To put it simple Hasbro just don't sell IPs. Maybe they'll just sit on it, or use it to make videogames, or cartoons, or yo-yos, but they would not sell them.