ideas that need to go away

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:15 am

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:Ah, I have been instructed. I thought the older version was called Chainmail. My apologies.

Chainmail is a pure wargame without significant roleplaying elements. The original D&D was loosely based on it and and you could easily slot the Chainmail rules in for large battles.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:17 am

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:Ah, I have been instructed. I thought the older version was called Chainmail. My apologies.

Chainmail was the original game Gary made, then him and Arneson made an expansion to it OD&D.

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:10 am

Here's another that I always thought was kinda dumb: "Allowing players to nest interdimensional spaces will make your game implode figuratively so let's make it happen literally!"

The only part of that that made any sense at all was putting a Portable Hole in a Bag of Holding, since I can see where poking a hole in a BoH would be a bad thing. But somewhat weirdly, a Portable Hole does NOT actually make a hole in whatever its applied to, it's a pocket portal to a storage space, just like a Bag of Holding is. So, why in the world is putting a discreet pocket dimension inside another discreet pocket dimension suddenly suicidal?

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:46 am

Desdan_Mervolam wrote:Here's another that I always thought was kinda dumb: "Allowing players to nest interdimensional spaces will make your game implode figuratively so let's make it happen literally!"

The only part of that that made any sense at all was putting a Portable Hole in a Bag of Holding, since I can see where poking a hole in a BoH would be a bad thing. But somewhat weirdly, a Portable Hole does NOT actually make a hole in whatever its applied to, it's a pocket portal to a storage space, just like a Bag of Holding is. So, why in the world is putting a discreet pocket dimension inside another discreet pocket dimension suddenly suicidal?

AD&D 1&2 wrote:The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space

Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to another plane, and the hole, bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn to the Astral Plane, the portable hole and bag of holding being destroyed in the process.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

they are nondimensional spaces, aka flatspace if you will not interdimensional spaces.

trying to put one non existing dimension into another...something is going to happen.

its a great way to get to the astral plane though.

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:23 am

shadzar wrote: trying to put one non existing dimension into another

Is there a context where this makes any sense at all?

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:28 am

Desdan_Mervolam wrote:
shadzar wrote: trying to put one non existing dimension into another
Is there a context where this makes any sense at all?

they dont actually use space in the ethereal or any other plane. each one creates a plane of existence solely for its own use.

the magic trying to create a dimension within a dimension...well they went blackhole rather than a tesseract.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:46 am

Ignoring Shadzar, the 'official' explanation is extradimensional things are, by their nature, a little unstable. I mean, they're a spatial anomaly being sustained by permanent magic. So putting two of them together is about guaranteed they're going to clash. With possibly spectacular results, given how you just knocked a hole in the firmament.

Whatever · Post by **Whatever** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:07 pm

I always liked the Knights of the Dinner Table version of Bags of Holding, where you could store a pile of stuff on a big flat plane, but if you were hardcore enough, you could jump into the bag and walk around until you found other people's piles of stuff, and take those.

Also the part where the main characters put entire forests worth of lumber and other construction materials in the bag, plus all their captured enemies, and the rest of their loot, only to find that the prisoners had built an entire fort in there, complete with catapults, and had seized all the MC's stuff.

Shadow Balls · Post by **Shadow Balls** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:16 pm

Whatever wrote:I always liked the Knights of the Dinner Table version of Bags of Holding, where you could store a pile of stuff on a big flat plane, but if you were hardcore enough, you could jump into the bag and walk around until you found other people's piles of stuff, and take those.

Also the part where the main characters put entire forests worth of lumber and other construction materials in the bag, plus all their captured enemies, and the rest of their loot, only to find that the prisoners had built an entire fort in there, complete with catapults, and had seized all the MC's stuff.

That sounds... awesome.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:20 pm

Whatever wrote:I always liked the Knights of the Dinner Table version of Bags of Holding, where you could store a pile of stuff on a big flat plane, but if you were hardcore enough, you could jump into the bag and walk around until you found other people's piles of stuff, and take those.

So... the Item World?

Whatever · Post by **Whatever** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:40 pm

I think they called it "Bag World".

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:59 pm

I think everyone should be able to magic up thier own gear, if needed. It should be like the samuaris ancestral relic or whatver the fuck simlilar thing you think of. Either feed it Xp, or feed it prayers, or other magic items through forced diffusion, or whatever the fuck but its pretty fucking reasonable and simple.

In the end I just want my weapon to level up on its fucking own, or I'll fucking hock and sell whatever the fuck I can to get the Swag I want.

If you're one of those assholes who think magic mart shouldn't exist (even though it does) then well the only other fucking option is for dudes to run around casting GMW on thier favorite piece of gear. We're totally willing to do that, I personally have done shit just like that to avoid rail-roading pieces of artifact fap swords with special missions.

If you don't get that substanial amount of people want to have a "signature weapon" that fits with the idea of what their character looks like, then you're being fucking stupid.
A melee fighter is most often described by the weapon in the top 5 things they use to desrcibe you.
"A huge Redskinned Dwarf wielding a wicked greatsword.... oh and he had an eyepatch" is pretty standard fare.
I can't remeber what the hell those swords are called in bleach but enough people love that type of shit the calling the concept "Stupid" or "Shallow" basically deserves a, "Fuck you, and what you stand for"
speaking of which:
Shadzar.
I have this guy on ignore, but you keep qouting him it gets futile. . . So, this asshole really says The Dm doesn't owe the player shit? This is why everytime I hear people use the word "Player entitlement" I think wow here's another dumbfuck neckbeard that doesn't know what the fuck is going on around him. No one should play with you people, you're bad for the game.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:49 pm

and that is why you have MMOs to play those games for a "signature weapon" EQ that is your epic quest.

D&D is a game, (a character dying even permanent death are parts of the game) not your own personal storybook making toolkit.

D&D is an RPG, roleplaying game.

Not a rollplaying game, that is a miniature wargame.

Not am STG either.

what these people wanting these "signature weapons" and "player entitlement" is an STG.

STG is a Story Telling Game...like White Wolf xWoD. Note even the person running the game there is called the Storyteller.

so that is where this "player entitlement" shit needs to go back to. you arent telling the characters story you wrote up befor the game, through the game. you are playing the character out and through those actions it BECOMES the characters story that you can tell later.

thigns that need to go away, is people that dont know the purpose of D&D to begin with, and try to force their method of play onto everyone. that way it can go back to being generic play method and concept, and EVERYONE can play the way they like, provided they find a group of like minded people to play with, rather than being forced to play something like a video game, or STG, when they want an RPG.

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:08 pm

Shadzar, you dumb bro. That's all.

Stubbazubba · Post by **Stubbazubba** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:57 pm

You'll have to go away, then, shadzar.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:32 am

So, something that needs to go away: "Only spellcasters can make magic items!"

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:45 am

RadiantPhoenix wrote:So, something that needs to go away: "Only spellcasters can make magic items!"

you mean "only spellcasters can cast spells"?

since spellcasters are the only ones that can ENCHANT magic items, but someone else had to often make what the spellcaster enchanted.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:23 am

shadzar wrote:
RadiantPhoenix wrote:So, something that needs to go away: "Only spellcasters can make magic items!"
you mean "only spellcasters can cast spells"?

In the context of 3e D&D, there are many kinds of magic that aren't spells. The ability to make a +1 Sword the normal way is dependent on the following resources:
* Materials (Including XP and the sword)
* Time
* Caster Level
* The feat "Craft Magic Arms and Armor" (which requires CL)

If something else can substitute for Caster Level, such as Character Level, you don't need to be a spellcaster to make some magic items.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:07 am

Agreed. If you want to make a sword that shoots fireballs, you can either know fireball and enchant it or perform a well-known ritual among crafters while sprinkling ruby dust on the steel.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:55 am

I was thinking on this a bit while working tonight. I'm looking at making it part of an overhaul of the crafting system, using character level for straight numeric stuff, elements for out of character type stuff, and possibly making a power source kind of thing to allow characters create certain types of enchantments without needing a spell.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:01 am

RadiantPhoenix wrote:
shadzar wrote:
RadiantPhoenix wrote:So, something that needs to go away: "Only spellcasters can make magic items!"
you mean "only spellcasters can cast spells"?
In the context of 3e D&D, there are many kinds of magic that aren't spells. The ability to make a +1 Sword the normal way is dependent on the following resources:
* Materials (Including XP and the sword)
* Time
* Caster Level
* The feat "Craft Magic Arms and Armor" (which requires CL)

If something else can substitute for Caster Level, such as Character Level, you don't need to be a spellcaster to make some magic items.

assuming "requires CL" means caster levels, or a level as a caster...

there are some people that will claim and play anything with the name D&D on it. give them a turd in a box labeled D&D where you take turns pushing it around the table and the last one pushing before it falls apart all dried out loses, would still be a TTRPG (table top rolling poop game).

but that being the case it would be too far removed from the origins that bore that name. when do you stop using parts of the "sacred cow" before you end up with the veggie burger?

OD&D you couldnt make items, they were all treasure, IIRC.
B/X still treasure
BECMI..still treasure for the most part

AD&D brought with it the major idea of making magic items, and it follow the most reasonable path. to make something magic, you must be able to use magic to get it in..aka "caster level".

a human fighter with no magic training in the general sense, should not be able to make a magic item. cleric..they can pray, wizard can cast to do so.

the default of D&D should remain as such, and indie films methods that separate from the norm, could easily be placed into a setting of its own. Birthright and its special abilities through bloodlines, eBerron and its something-or-other marks.

blacksmiths could make magic effective items in the past, but if silver and cold iron items no longer have use, then the flaw was in part there with 3.x

4th has rituals, enchanting is one such. many people think 4th is not very D&D-like...the turd in a box as it were.

4th changed MANY dynamics, and in doing so removed itself form d&D the game, and only held onto D&D the brand, or D&D the generic intro to RPG...making D&D have little to no more identity.

so it just makes sense that to make a magic item, someone trained in magic use would be involved.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:49 am

Shad, first, we're not even talking about modifying D&D here, specifically, just things we want to go away in general. Second, you don't play 3e, the edition I'd be modding if I did anything, so... why do you care?

Saying "that's just not how d&d works." is a weak argument anyway. A brand is all D&D is. Initially, this brand was "a party of sellswords going around killing things and taking treasure". Then it became "the fellowship going around killing thing and grabbing treasure." 3rd is dungeonpunk, and all that implies. D&D is a brand, identified as an RPG with a lot of name recognition, a system easy to houserule, in which players play adventurers for hire who explore dungeons and occasionally fight dragons."

Furthermore, what if we were just talking about a campaign setting? One in which anyone can infuse an item with their own essence to create a +bullshit item, invoke the powers that give them their abilities to create items with thematically appropriate abilities, and utilize quest elemental essence items to grant other abilities. It would still be D&D, just a different setting.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:08 am

Prak_Anima wrote:Furthermore, what if we were just talking about a campaign setting? One in which anyone can infuse an item with their own essence to create a +bullshit item, invoke the powers that give them their abilities to create items with thematically appropriate abilities, and utilize quest elemental essence items to grant other abilities. It would still be D&D, just a different setting.

3rd, 2nd, 4th...it doesnt matter. a change to the main game is jsut that, a setting doesnt hurt ANYONE. nobody forces anyone to play Birthright or Planescape. but there are a lot of strange and crazy people out there that like them.

if magic items are a problem, then use the previous Materia method and it shouldnt be a problem for having to upgrade a weapon, or enchanting it.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:15 am

The previous materia method? I'm not sure to what you are referring. explain?

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:44 am

Prak_Anima wrote:The previous materia method? I'm not sure to what you are referring. explain?

about both not having to get a new weapon to upgrade, and about enchanting ANY item with some sort of magic be it flight, +x, fire, whatever.

Final Fantasy you could place Materia in a weapon to give it these properties...basically shove a magic stone into a weapon and it gives it fire or whatever attribute you want it to have.

it reduces a LOT of the problems with magic items. it doesnt cure all so scrolls still get made by cleric/mages, and such, but the major ones you want you use the Materia method and can get a cloak of invisibility, sword of invisibility, etc.

a cloak of fire, would be protection from, rather than dealing damage if you put a fire stone into a cloak versus a weapon.

you just have to decide how to implant the stones depending on the size of the item, and assuming ALL magic attribute stones are the same size.

often magic items are adorned with gems or something anyway, so...

then any blacksmith could make all items with "slots" for magic stones, and all you have to do is find them.

it lets people trade abilities, and keep the enchantment itself magical.

this way someone wanting to upgrade their precious rapier, can just replace "stones" for different abilities, rather than have to find a new rapier that does more damage, or has fire, or whatever.