The Shadowrun Situation

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed May 11, 2011 7:58 pm

kzt wrote:
Stahlseele wrote: By this point, it's actually worth it to buy the german stuff over the american stuff . .
Except for it being in German.

speak for yourself, i see no problem with this ^^
of course it would be better, if the german stuff got translated to english . .

hermit · Post by **hermit** » Wed May 11, 2011 8:21 pm

google translate is helpful there. german -> english works a lot better than the other way.

And the flying horse people seem to want to publish PDF files, too, in the near future.

of course it would be better, if the german stuff got translated to english . .

Certainly, if only to show Hardy off.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed May 11, 2011 8:42 pm

Yah, it'd be so worth it only for that very reason ^^
And it'd probably be a big hit around the world too.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... tousGerman

JongWK · Post by **JongWK** » Thu May 12, 2011 5:05 pm

Last I was paying attention, the original concept "Cities of Intrigue" (like Runner Havens but with Denver and London as flagship cities) had been completely scrapped,

IIRC, the original main cities for Centers of Intrigue were DC (New Revolution, Colloton Administration, politics and lobby groups) and either Paris (nobles) or London (more nobles). The minor cities would have included Portland (think "Restoration") and Lisbon (mercs and Aegis Cognito).

That was a million years and a few good line developers ago, though.

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Thu May 12, 2011 5:37 pm

I've been a long time Battletech fan, but it seems like Battletech the product line has been on life support for the last year or two. They did eventually ship the 25th anniversary box set only two years late. They've put out a bunch of small pdf only projects but I haven't seen anything substantial or dead tree in a while. I think the last thing they put out was an art book.

So I'm wondering what's up with Battletech? It looks like it's dying, are they reorganizing things behind the scenes or have they run out of money?

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu May 12, 2011 6:02 pm

Well, given that the shadowrun guys complain that CGL only cares about Battletech

this is.. sad.

Basically it means that CGL isn't doing much of anything, with anything,.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu May 12, 2011 6:07 pm

*shrugs*
depends on what you call big releases . .
The Jihad Books are out, Hotspots, Historical etc.

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Fri May 13, 2011 5:56 am

Stahlseele wrote:*shrugs*
depends on what you call big releases . .
The Jihad Books are out, Hotspots, Historical etc.

You have a point, they've actually put out about 4 real projects (not reprints, compilations or record sheet) each in 2009 and 2010. This compares to roughly 8 products a year in 2007, 2008. Eight substantial products a year seems to be their output in a good year, maybe a few extra products in a great year. I wonder if their low output is a trend likely to abate in 2011 or is CGL going to be running at half steam for the foreseeable future?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri May 13, 2011 9:06 am

Hard to say. Probably the latter though.

hermit · Post by **hermit** » Fri May 13, 2011 9:23 am

it seems like Battletech the product line has been on life support for the last year or two.

From rumors circulating, CGL is using money made from their Shadowrun license to keep BT around, sicne apart from being Mormons and crooks Bills and Coleman are largely BT fans and could not care less about SR save to loot it for the money. This is, at least, the common conspiracy theory explaining why shadowrun products have sucked so much ass the last years, and why an imbecile like Hardy has been kept around despite being totally unable to do editing, devise a coherent plot, or compose a sourcebook that does not feel like a set of design ideas tossed out in a brainstorming session put together in print without any editing whatsoever.

If Battletech books are made from the same herp and derp, it probably rather indicates that Bills and Coleman and the BT line dev are just as incompetent as Hardy.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri May 13, 2011 9:50 am

Well, there are some herpy derpy moments in there . .
My favourite:"We need to glass some more planetes . . let's do . . a and b and c . . something else? no? good, on to next topic. We need to do something with these units, X and Y and Z . . now where was unit X last? On . . wait . . on c? We just glassed unit X? . . whoops . ."

nikita · Post by **nikita** » Fri May 13, 2011 10:16 am

From my own questioning of people who have been talking with top CGL people the BattleTech is emotionally strongly coupled with CGL's management. Shadowrun does not seem to have same level of commitment there.

BattleTech publishing is also instructive (I've removed all reprints, upgrades, maps, record sheets):

2007
Handbook: House Davion
Classic BattleTech RPG
Classic BattleTech Introductory Box Set
TechManual
Starterbook: Sword and Dragon
Jihad Hot Spots: 3072

2008
Tactical Operations
Strategic Operations
Starterbook: Wolf and Blake
Technical Readout: 3075
Jihad Conspiracies: Interstellar Players 2
Jihad Secrets: The Blake Documents

2009
Handbook: Major Periphery States
Jihad Hot Spots: 3076
Masters and Minions: The StarCorps Dossiers
25 Years of Art and Fiction

2010
A Time of War
Technical Readout: 3085
Historical: Operation Klondike
Jihad Hot Spots: Terra

So the printed content is very obviously falling. This also explains why there is a steady drumbeat of people asking if BattleTech is dead. There is simply not enough new printed products to show in gaming stores.

Second question is role of electronic publishing

2009
Jihad Turning Points: New Avalon
Jihad Turning Points: Tharkad
Jihad Turning Points: Sian
Jihad Turning Points: Atreus
Experimental Technical Readout: Mercs

2010
Jihad Turning Points: Dieron
Operational Turning Points: The Red Corsair
Historical Turning Points: Galtor
Historical Turning Points: Misery
Experimental Technical Readout: Pirates
Experimental Technical Readout: Gladiators
Experimental Technical Readout: Corporations
Experimental Technical Readout: Boondocks
Experimental Technical Readout: Davion
Experimental Technical Readout: Primitives, Volume 1
Era Digest: Golden Century
Field Report: CCAF
Field Report: DCMS
Technical Readout: 3085 Supplemental
Historical Turning Points: Glengarry
Operational Turning Points: Death to Mercenaries!
Experimental Technical Readout: Kurita
Experimental Technical Readout: Liao
Era Report: 3052

2011
Field Report: AFFS
Experimental Technical Readout: Marik
Experimental Technical Readout: RetroTech
Experimental Technical Readout: Steiner
Field Report: LAAF

These numbers look impressive until you look at the size and content of these pamphlets. Turning points are scenario books with short descriptions of fights and units. Field reports are about 20 real content pages each of each military.
XTRO is about 30 pages each ofnew hardware we do not really need.

Dropping out the dustjackets the amount of new content per pamphlet is not very high. It appears to me that CGL shot its electronic broadside in 2010 and the number of new material published in 2011 for BattleTech is also way down.

You can also look at amount of stuff BattleCorps has published. 2 short stories (plus pile of unit/stable descriptions) per month seems to be the going rate in 2011.

This is also confirmed by looking at the discussion with fanbase about new material in pipeline. It appears to me that "chats" are getting ever more vague so actual product development times have obviously gotten much longer too.

So I believe it is fair to say that while CGL puts far more effort to BattleTech than Shadowrun in both content quality and content (even though there are things that make me scream), the publishing effort has seemingly at least halved in a year.

Furthermore, BattleTech relies on huge number of assistants who work for nothing in "fact checking", playtesting and writing. I wonder if this asset has been finally tapped out (due economic hardship) or the questionable business practices, personal health issues and like have burned out the CGL management. In either case the BattleTech had a banner year last year but now the pipeline seems to be falling off cliff contentwise.

Blasted · Post by **Blasted** » Fri May 13, 2011 11:46 am

It seems CGL is putting energy (and money) into getting Leviathans out.
Given BTech and SR4 are trading only on their established brand, if Leviathans has anything like the same production values, those floating battleships will become free-falling battleships.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri May 13, 2011 2:52 pm

Blasted wrote:It seems CGL is putting energy (and money) into getting Leviathans out.
Given BTech and SR4 are trading only on their established brand, if Leviathans has anything like the same production values, those floating battleships will become free-falling battleships.

CGL had the Balance of Power board game straight up finished in 2009. With like preview copies in GenCon and everything. You can still order a copy, although it hasn't actually shipped yet. And the sell sheet on Catalyst's servers is now a 404 error.

Holding your breath until Catalyst releases a product is rather futile at this point. They lack the money or the credit to get printers to produce games that are already made.

-Username17

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Fri May 13, 2011 3:07 pm

I recall showing a friend the website Leviathans years ago.

Back then I was still a fan of CGL and he was still with his wife.

I do really hope that CGL gets the damn thing out sometime soon. If Leviathans is half way successful for them there might be some way to get Shadowrun away from them. I know there are a few folks who are associated with CGL and are still fans, but for all intents and purposes it appears the company hates their own line.

When you stand back and look objectively it appears that Shadowrun is dead or dying a slow death to lack of product and lack of quality.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Fri May 13, 2011 11:42 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
Blasted wrote:It seems CGL is putting energy (and money) into getting Leviathans out.
Given BTech and SR4 are trading only on their established brand, if Leviathans has anything like the same production values, those floating battleships will become free-falling battleships.
CGL had the Balance of Power board game straight up finished in 2009. With like preview copies in GenCon and everything. You can still order a copy, although it hasn't actually shipped yet. And the sell sheet on Catalyst's servers is now a 404 error.

Holding your breath until Catalyst releases a product is rather futile at this point. They lack the money or the credit to get printers to produce games that are already made.

-Username17

According to Boardgamegeek, it isn't associated with CGL any more, but is being published via Sandstorm.

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/4323 ... e-of-power

The page has some bit-rot going on though since the publishing date was 2010 but there's no sign it actually shipped.

And I wonder if a company in CGL's position would be better off doing a P500 style publishing schedule. You have to be creative, which is a problem, but it's fairly easy otherwise: you come up with rough drafts/sketches of a number of different products and let people pre-order them. The pre-orders aren't bound by law or anything, but once you hit 500, then development on the product finishes, it prints, and you get charged your pre-order price. Generally, with GMT Games, P500 covers the cost of actually printing the game, and the more preorders you get, the more goodies you get and the faster it gets to the printer. It might be years before certain products see the light of day, but this way you ensure there's a minimum enough market for whatever you're publishing to at least break even.

As far as Leviathans, I see nothing about it to look even remotely interesting aside from the theme. Wargames have advanced so unbelievably far past BattleTech era mechanics that without something truly innovative your product is going to be doomed to mediocrity if not flat out stillborn. I mean, you're competing with, at the very least, Games Workshop's juggernaut and Warmachine (which brings some interesting ideas to the table), both of which are established enough to be contenders. Then there are the myriads of wargames, fig and hex & counter both, that have had constantly evolving rules and paradigms over the last 30 years. Even old Grognard standards like Ogre and ASL are getting polished here and there to keep them from becoming total relics.

Blasted · Post by **Blasted** » Sat May 14, 2011 12:24 am

According to SS's March update, it should be shipping July.
For whatever value you give that.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sat May 14, 2011 10:27 pm

And just to point out how poorly they are handling the official board . .
o got banned, again . . automagically . . after changing my email adress . .
because the one i wanted to change it to points to an account named sthalseele . . which is, obviously, just misspelled and has never seen use . .
and of course, no way to contact anything or anybody on that board, because they can't afford to use a good forum software over there . .

hermit · Post by **hermit** » Sat May 14, 2011 11:08 pm

Well, competence shows in all kinds of ways.

nikita · Post by **nikita** » Sun May 15, 2011 6:38 pm

I think that P500 is a good way to build up interest and reputation of new game system. It is a hard work too. It requires going to consimworlds boards, telling what you are going to do and dealing with lots pf people who ask you questions. It is excellent way of building reputation and interest towards new product (like Lock'n'Load was published) but it can also ruin your reputation if you fail on it.

However, I also believe that Leviathans is facing a stiff competition. There is Dystopian Wars with excellent looking range of figurines so Leviathans start from the disadvantage of being second in market. I have also seen little marketing that is nowadays so important.

Blasted · Post by **Blasted** » Sun May 15, 2011 11:23 pm

nikita wrote: However, I also believe that Leviathans is facing a stiff competition. There is Dystopian Wars with excellent looking range of figurines so Leviathans start from the disadvantage of being second in market. I have also seen little marketing that is nowadays so important.

More to the point, DW has a relatively modern rules set which plays fairly well. And it doesn't require hexgrids. IDK why CGL thought that the world wanted more hex maps for what's essentially a miniatures game.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sun May 15, 2011 11:27 pm

because battletech uses hexmaps.
if they are compatible with each other, they can save one boat load of money in making one set for both.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon May 16, 2011 4:25 am

Stahlseele wrote:because battletech uses hexmaps.
if they are compatible with each other, they can save one boat load of money in making one set for both.

Dude, it's a miniatures game. Players would be perfectly happy to take their own measuring tape and play on bare tables. CGL wouldn't need to print maps at all if they went even half-way modern about it.

-Username17

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Mon May 16, 2011 6:42 am

Stahlseele wrote:because battletech uses hexmaps.
if they are compatible with each other, they can save one boat load of money in making one set for both.

Wait... Isn't Leviathans supposed to be airborne ships and shit? You aren't going to use terrain at all. You're going to be above any relevant terrain like hills and shit. That's the entire point of being airborne: you're above everything.

A Battletech map is going to essentially be background. Worse yet, any terrain like modern cities is going to break canon, since this is an alternate WW1 setting.

For me, Leviathans seems essentially lacking in what would, for me, qualify to be an interesting fighting environment. WW1 era battleship tactics weren't especially... I dunno engaging. Starfleet Battles made the concept interesting by giving you severely limited resources to do battle with to begin with (energy allocation), and then steadily limiting your options as battle progressed.

Age of Sail naval games rock because you have inherent limitations in the wind, the sea, weather gage, lines of battle (and the subsequent breaking thereof), raking fire, depth under keel, and so on and so forth. I just don't see how Leviathans is going to be anything other than pounding on each other, and occasionally if the situation permits to cross the T and rake the enemy (though with turreted main guns this becomes far less relevant).

Crimson Skies is more interesting because it uses nimble fighters instead of big hulking battle fortresses like a flying battleship would be (okay, I know there's dirigibles but they're more the exception than the rule).

I haven't read the ruleset I admit, but I just don't see enough inherent tactical depth to make it worth investing money to see how deep or engaging the game is.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Tue May 17, 2011 3:43 pm

For those of you capable of reading/understanding german:
http://sirdoomsbadcompany.files.wordpre ... ttakes.pdf
Outtakes and Stuff that did not make it into Fronteinsatz(The German much better WAR!)