Arguments in favor of 4th Edition

[Roy]

"Wealth=Power" only can break the game if you can freely buy magic items.

And if you can't, you no longer have any reason to care about loot. Congrats, nearly every reason to play is gone.

As for the gold chair, alternately it means the Evil Overlord isn't level appropriate, because he spent his combat effectiveness fund on furniture.

And no, Tome rules don't help, they just change the fucking currency from gold to souls or some bullshit. It's still the same damn thing. Money = Power. Just now you don't care about gold, because it buys nothing you care about. Similarly, souls WILL go towards the combat effectiveness fund. This, naturally means killing things and taking their stuff is more forced, because random NPCs are even less capable of signing your checks, and your enemies will have the same amount of items you care about... just now you have fewer other ways to get them.

[angelfromanotherpin]

And if you can't, you no longer have any reason to care about loot. Congrats, nearly every reason to play is gone.

Yeah, almost everyone plays for tax-code power-ups and imaginary bling. Why, you can count the people who play for the sense of adventure and wonder, for the escapism, or just to unwind, on the fingers of one foot.

[Fuchs]

Or simply to play a character in a fantasy world.

[Murtak]

"Wealth=Power" only can break the game if you can freely buy magic items.

And if you can't, you no longer have any reason to care about loot.
As for the gold chair, alternately it means the Evil Overlord isn't level appropriate, because he spent his combat effectiveness fund on furniture.
And no, Tome rules don't help, they just change the fucking currency from gold to souls or some bullshit.

That's the entire point. Gold = Power has two issues:
- The villain can no longer have a solid gold throne without handing the players free power.
- The players can not have a solid diamonf breastplate, because they will loose power.

Splitting bling from power is the whole point of the tome planar currency system.

[Kaelik]

Of course, someone has to be carrying all those Wizard Implements, and since there are basically no Wizards (cause you know, PC classes aren't monsters), it's weird every time you find one.

Lots of monsters can carry and use magic staves (or orbs, or tomes, or wands) without it being weird. Kobold Dragonpriests, for example.

First of all. I'm the one that said that. Not PR.

Secondly. No, they actually can't use Wizard implements. Because Wizard Implements only work for Wizards. Kobold Dragon Priests can't use an Orb of Imposition. They just can't. Or any other implement.

[Roy]

And if you can't, you no longer have any reason to care about loot. Congrats, nearly every reason to play is gone.

Yeah, almost everyone plays for tax-code power-ups and imaginary bling. Why, you can count the people who play for the sense of adventure and wonder, for the escapism, or just to unwind, on the fingers of one foot.

Let's see... imaginary bling that makes your characters better, or imaginary adventure and wonder... hmmm... I'll take the thing that's at least tangible to the character off risking his or her life.

Snark aside, my point is by doing that, you remove progress, which means the incentive of the player to play is basically gone, because you're doing E6 brand Fail.

Now, what's the practical difference between making gold fluff text, and making it non interactable scenery? One just flat out tells you you can't touch it, the other doesn't give you any incentive to ever touch it. Either way, you aren't touching it. Either way, you don't care about it, you care about the shiny magic items.

Making gold matter makes them care about gold furnishings. Unfortunately, their concern takes the form of theft. But it's gold, what were you expecting to happen?

[Fuchs]

Not everyone plays to advance a character in the MMOG way. Some play to advance their character's power, but not through bling, but through influence. Others like to earn fame, some like to change the map of the gameing world, others just want to experience adventures and plots.

I read most books not because I expect some sort of advancement from reading, but because it's entertaining by itself. Similarly, I get my motivation for playing a RPG from the entertainment I get from playing, not from advancing a character.

[Roy]

Except that ya know, it is progression that lets them advance their goals.

[Fuchs]

Now, what's the practical difference between making gold fluff text, and making it non interactable scenery? One just flat out tells you you can't touch it, the other doesn't give you any incentive to ever touch it. Either way, you aren't touching it. Either way, you don't care about it, you care about the shiny magic items.

Making gold matter makes them care about gold furnishings. Unfortunately, their concern takes the form of theft. But it's gold, what were you expecting to happen?

You can make gold matter in ways that do not cause the combat power of your character go up by +X. That way, even large amount of gold do not "break" the game. Examples are the investment of said gold into land, or merchant empires, or using it to further your character's ambitions (such as earning a title, or having enough money to pay the bride price for his love).

[violence in the media]

I'm just throwing out an idea I just had, but what if we had Wealth Levels that were separate from Character Levels but that interacted with them in some way to create an overall Challenge Level?

Your Character Level would be the thing that we're all familiar with and would generally only progress in one direction. Your Wealth Level would rise and fall as the fortunes of your character did. Your Character Level and your Wealth Level would determine the overall Challenge Level your PC could handle.

With a system like this, you could have situations where high level PCs can be stripped of their gear without it being game-ending. You could have 1st level Merchant Princes with access to hundreds of thousands of GP. It might even help develop an environment where characters can and do spend 10K on ale and whores because they know they can go out and get more without running afoul of some WBL table or parcel system that tells them they can't receive a single silver for anything until they slay 37 more orcs.

Now, you'd have to design the character classes such that any 10th level character could potentially beat another 10th level character to death if they were both in the nude. However, a 10th level character with 3rd level Wealth might be able to take on things of Challenge Level 13 or something.

This idea would require a lot of work, I think.

[Fuchs]

Except that ya know, it is progression that lets them advance their goals.

That's not always a progression in combat power. I could measure progress in the amount of songs my bard wrote about the party's adventures, for example.

I can measure progress in the amount of pages and pictures the campaign chronicle has that I keep.

Or I can simply have fun without caring about progress, getting entertainment in new plots and adventures, and interaction with NPCs.

[Fuchs]

Now, you'd have to design the character classes such that any 10th level character could potentially beat another 10th level character to death if they were both in the nude. However, a 10th level character with 3rd level Wealth might be able to take on things of Challenge Level 13 or something.

This idea would require a lot of work, I think.

Only if you want wealth level to matter in combat. If you don't mix it up that closely you can have two (or more) different mini-games. You have the combat game. And you have the merchant game, contesting with rival merchants. Or the politics game, struggling for influence, and in both cases, your combat prowess can influence your wealth.

If needed the GM can control magic items and other combat-effective bling - by talking to the players, if that works, or by using some restrictions on the ways gold can be turned into plusses. Making magic imtes something that needs more than gold and time works very well for that.

[Roy]

Notice how most, if not all of those gold uses aren't things you'd care about, because they're beneath you and don't actually do anything? Yeah.

[violence in the media]

Well, wealth should have some effect on combat effectiveness, at least up to a certain point. The game should be able to handle people playing gear-less and as tricked-out as they can possibly be.

[Murtak]

Notice how most, if not all of those gold uses aren't things you'd care about, because they're beneath you and don't actually do anything? Yeah.

I for one want a game where Conan wastes a treasure hoard on wine and women. In real life I do a lot of stuff that "doesn't advance my goals" and "doesn't do anything" too. Like posting on this message board. Playing board games. Searching the net for awesome pictures. Trying for hours to get the neighbor's cat to acknowledge me.

It is called "having fun" and I'm sure even my imaginary D&D characters wouldn't mind a little fun every now and then.

[Murtak]

Now, what's the practical difference between making gold fluff text, and making it non interactable scenery? One just flat out tells you you can't touch it, the other doesn't give you any incentive to ever touch it.

The incentive is to touch it. I don't need an incentive to view a work of art besides wanting to see said work of art.

[Fuchs]

Notice how most, if not all of those gold uses aren't things you'd care about, because they're beneath you and don't actually do anything? Yeah.

Uh-uh. Please do not assume that just because you don't care about it everyone else does not care either. Not everyone plays in your game, and in other games, titles and land might matter much more than yet another plus to damage. In yet other games fame might matter much more to a player than killing power.

[Username17]

Notice how most, if not all of those gold uses aren't things you'd care about, because they're beneath you and don't actually do anything? Yeah.

Uh... no. You're back to that laughable "Only +1 Cock Rings Matter!" rant that only makes sense to the autistic.

The fact is that +X bling is not something that anyone should care about. And I don't just mean that the righteous and high minded will ignore those kind of incentives, I mean that they seriously don't mean shit on any metric. Your actual goal is something like "saving lives" or "killing my enemies" or "conquering lands" or "getting into the pants of sexy ladies." And for all of those you could see indirectly how getting a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor might help somewhat.

You could last slightly longer in a head-to-head match up against a manticore. That in turn might make it easier for you to save the lives of people you care about (if the manticore was threatening them, for example). It might be that having saved on healing stick charges allows you to press on to kill your enemies, or you might specifically hate that manticore. You might use your demonstrated prowess in manticore slaying to get people to swear fealty to you or just to impress sexy ladies.

But you know what? You could just take a pile of gold and buy some grain to haul to a staring village. Or you could bribe away some of an enemy's foot soldiers. Or just buy some land or pretty dresses for sexy ladies.

Raising numbers on a character sheet is only a goal in incredibly shitty gams like World of Warcraft where you aren't actually allowed to accomplish anything. In any game where there's an interactable world, you're going to have some fucking goals. And there should be some things you can do with gold that advance those goals. And that's the entire point about the multi-tier Tome Economy. Because there is a limit to how far you can push the numbers on your character sheet with gold, players are not mechanically punished for actually accomplishing some of their actual goals while the campaign is still running.

-Username17

[Roy]

And several people immediately reverse their default stances, because I'm agreeing with them, just so they can again bitch about them. Yes, that includes you Frank.

Amusement from that aside...

Land is fluff text. It doesn't /do/ anything, at least not anything you care about. So you're trading gold fluff for land fluff... Great, except it still has no function.

Titles are playing the NPC game. By the time you get some degree of power there, you should have more power by being a PC. So playing the NPC game, where you get everything slower or not at all is made of Fail. What the fucking fuckity fuck does some level 15 care about ruling one country? Fuck that, he can have a world if he wants it. Make it two. Even the settings themselves acknowledge this in a backhanded way... after all, all the kings are like level 12-15 Fighters. Aka, they get the dregs, the real characters (including the PCs) get the real power.

Similarly, investing gold into merchant empires means the best case scenario is more gold... which, since it is so pointless as to be fluff text anyways, means no one cares. If gold did mean something, then either playing Merchants and Moneylenders is inferior to playing Murdering Hobos in which case you just don't do that, or it's superior in which case you just play with that and forget about doing stuff... which is exactly what you Fuchs seem to be arguing /against/.

Further, progress involving 'songs wrote about party's adventures' means they need to have those adventures, and thus have progression. Either you are in stasis or you are not. Choose one.

Murtak, any argument based on fucking around as a means of having fun becomes automatically invalid when discussing people risking their lives. Either they're insane, or stupid, or they just aren't doing that.

[Fuchs]

Roy, can you understand that people play a game to have fun? And that not everyone has fun the way you do?

If so, please stop trying to tell others what they care about.

Also, you can have dozens of adventures without "advancing" as you define it.

[Murtak]

Murtak, any argument based on fucking around as a means of having fun becomes automatically invalid when discussing people risking their lives. Either they're insane, or stupid, or they just aren't doing that.

In other words, Conan is not a valid fantasy archetype?

[angelfromanotherpin]

In other words, Conan is not a valid fantasy archetype?

Conan totally doesn't fit into D&D in general. He doesn't meaningfully advance over the course of his career, and he doesn't have very much significant gear (and what little he does have is gone by the next story).

He's a cool guy with cool stories, but no version of D&D has mapped either him or them with any veracity.

[Roy]

Roy, can you understand that people play a game to have fun? And that not everyone has fun the way you do?

If so, please stop trying to tell others what they care about.

Also, you can have dozens of adventures without "advancing" as you define it.

Fuchs, can you not understand classic Den speak? You don't whine about others when they do it, so the fact you are singling me out means you don't have a fucking point, you just want to whine about me.

Not advancing means you are not actually doing anything. You're just looking busy. Full stop.

Murtak: I'd say fuck no to that, but angel already did that. Fuck it, I'll say it anyways.

No, he's not valid. First of all, he's literary, and thus automatically irrelevant to D&D as his successes are just going to be Tea Party handwaving bullshit, and are by no means indicative of whether or not he actually has the ability. In other words, he Fails in exactly the same manner mother fucking Ash Ketchum Fails.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mXruipuboA

Aim for the horn, indeed.

Second, as angel has stated he doesn't fit into D&D in general.

Third, and most importantly because he doesn't advance, everything he does is basically a series of unconnected one shots... except ya know, fantasy archetypes actually progress? Yeah. You know, get more competent, etc? They also have significant gear, even if they don't pull a Murdering Hobo.

[Username17]

Roy, your conflation of ends and means is tragic and pathetic.

Your goal is to complete the quest. Getting a +1 sword is just something you do to help you attain your goal. If your goal is to get a +1 sword then... that's actually just sad. You should play WoW. Or 4e. Because those are the only kinds of games where the world is so non-interactive that having goals that small and shitty actually makes any sense.

-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

Third, and most importantly because he doesn't advance, everything he does is basically a series of unconnected one shots... except ya know, fantasy archetypes actually progress? Yeah. You know, get more competent, etc? They also have significant gear, even if they don't pull a Murdering Hobo.

Self-evident fail is self-evident.