League Of Losers

[Surgo]

The people who have me on Skype can ping me if they ever need a person to play with; I almost never play anymore (don't think I've played a game in over a month).

[MGuy]

The idea behind Vayne beating Lucian in lane is that she can dodge his Q with her Q trivially easily, and if he tries to all-in at 6 she can do the same thing and evade his ult totally with her invisibility.

And his cross attack does almost no damage, and his dash is just a double proc basic attack, which is fine since two of his attacks do approximately the same damage as one of vaynes after a q, if not less.

I just don't see how you could possibly all in a vayne unless she was really careless and let herself get blitz/thresh hooked, or poked really low by a sona, and that is just bad play that would kill anyone playing any champ.

On the whole Lucian is bad. I bought him, I've won with him, he's just not that good. I have to put emphasis that his ult fucking sucks. It is difficult to aim and even if you aim it well anybody with any sense can dodge it easy. Lucian's entire kit is supposed to make him a "mobile" character but while he can move if he's not stunned, cc'd, chased by someone who is faster he has NO cc of his own at all and that's a very big factor if he is going to team fight successfully. Even with BotRK he does not have the damage out put that would put him on the same level of other ADCs. Now when I say he sucks I say so because there are just TOO many BETTER options to have over him. If taken in a vacuum or if you just straight up don't look at other heroes he might seem decent but if you factor in the fact that just about every other ADC can out do him it is easy to see that he effectively sucks.

Fixing him wouldn't be terribly hard though. If you doubled the damage of his ult or made it aim/reveal at a target or made it go through minions and stop only at other champs he'd be vastly improved. As he is he just can't pull off any damage and just isn't as useful. His speed buff can be gotten with boots and/or (now) mallet. He is just all around useless at all stages of the game (when compared to most other champs). The thing he does best (poking) is A) risky for him B) is hard because he's mana hungry.

Quinn and MF out burst/poke him. Draven (even with the nerf), Twitch, and Vayne just straight up do way more damage are mobile AND have CC. Even what I consider riskier ADCs like Ezreal (more mobility and poke), Ashe (more poke and cc), and Varus (More poke and CC) all out do him especially at late game damage. I think the only one I'd put on his level is kogmaw and that's just because his one cc move is just unimpressive.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

The idea behind Vayne beating Lucian in lane is that she can dodge his Q with her Q trivially easily, and if he tries to all-in at 6 she can do the same thing and evade his ult totally with her invisibility.

And his cross attack does almost no damage, and his dash is just a double proc basic attack, which is fine since two of his attacks do approximately the same damage as one of vaynes after a q, if not less.

I just don't see how you could possibly all in a vayne unless she was really careless and let herself get blitz/thresh hooked, or poked really low by a sona, and that is just bad play that would kill anyone playing any champ.

On the whole Lucian is bad. I bought him, I've won with him, he's just not that good. I have to put emphasis that his ult fucking sucks. It is difficult to aim and even if you aim it well anybody with any sense can dodge it easy. Lucian's entire kit is supposed to make him a "mobile" character but while he can move if he's not stunned, cc'd, chased by someone who is faster he has NO cc of his own at all and that's a very big factor if he is going to team fight successfully. Even with BotRK he does not have the damage out put that would put him on the same level of other ADCs. Now when I say he sucks I say so because there are just TOO many BETTER options to have over him. If taken in a vacuum or if you just straight up don't look at other heroes he might seem decent but if you factor in the fact that just about every other ADC can out do him it is easy to see that he effectively sucks.

Fixing him wouldn't be terribly hard though. If you doubled the damage of his ult or made it aim/reveal at a target or made it go through minions and stop only at other champs he'd be vastly improved. As he is he just can't pull off any damage and just isn't as useful. His speed buff can be gotten with boots and/or (now) mallet. He is just all around useless at all stages of the game (when compared to most other champs). The thing he does best (poking) is A) risky for him B) is hard because he's mana hungry.

Quinn and MF out burst/poke him. Draven (even with the nerf), Twitch, and Vayne just straight up do way more damage are mobile AND have CC. Even what I consider riskier ADCs like Ezreal (more mobility and poke), Ashe (more poke and cc), and Varus (More poke and CC) all out do him especially at late game damage. I think the only one I'd put on his level is kogmaw and that's just because his one cc move is just unimpressive.

I really think everyone is underestimating just how mobile Lucian is. He seriously does not require peel, making him very team independent. He's tough to catch out if pushing because dash + speed boost + ult, is more effective than I previously thought for tower fights because his ult instaclears waves, and double procing BotRK a bunch mid game is just as effective as you'd expect it to be (very). He can go traditional ADC build and be good, but I really think his strength mid-game is his "I attack 6 times in the space a normal AD attacks 3 times" passive, which makes BotRK the clear winner.

The focus on mobility kind of hurts his lane, which might be why people think he's so weak. He doesn't trade well until BotRK, and his poke is very shitty because you basically use it to activate his passive. His straight up dueling is fine at 3, when his passive is a bonus auto and a half if you trade full rotations, but nobody trades for that long so his laning is Kog levels of bad.

I can't stress just how hard it is to catch him as a diver. I can't think of a single diving champ in the game who can stick to Lucian for long enough to kill him except maybe Nocturne if he lands duskbringer or Diana if she lands a Q (or insta-gib bursters who don't so much catch as they do murder). You need at least 2 gap closers or a ridiculous movespeed to keep on him if he just uses his kit the right way, and if your champ packs a slow it isn't useful against him because he cleanses it off with his dash. He's weak against hard initiation (every AD is weak against hard initiation) and doesn't deal as much damage as Vayne/Kog outside of his ult, but damn is he hard to kill if played correctly.

Also, his ult has retarded damage. If you have a BotRK (not even the best scaling for his ult, but it's what he'd build), doran's blade, and AS boots your ult is going to hurt a LOT (and his ult is helped by AS boosters [and hindered by AS slows] at time of cast). His ult is like a non-AoE bullet time that does double damage, though its ends up being ~quadruple damage as the game goes on.

[MGuy]

First I have to strike down the ult thing. His ult is EXTREMELY easy to dodge and once you dodge it he is essentially screwed. So even IF you can get it going with decent damage good luck trying to hit with it consistently or continuously enough for it to be a big deal.

Second I really don't know why you're making a big deal about his speed. He has an ability that seriously gives him a small speed boost IF and only IF he hits with it and makes an attack. You can get the same speed boost with a mallet or just a hero that boosts their speed (Yi, Quinn, Udyr, Teemo, Vayne). He has a dash. Same as Graves, same as Quinn, same as Vayne, same as Talon. Graves has CC, Quinn straight up "gets" distance, Vayne can go Invisi and pushes, etc etc. He has NOTHING to save him outside of the dash and then that's it.

You say he duels well but I'm not seeing it. Even considering BotRK you can easily stop him from farming BECAUSE he is bad in lane and if you do it right by the time he GETS enough to get that he is so far behind it doesn't matter. Just about every other ADC that matters out does him in damage from beginning to end of the game.

The best he can do is "poke" mid game but mid game Vayne, Draven, Quinn, etc are straight up killing mofos. I "want" to like Lucian. I really really do. He's just not that good if you put him next to other ADCs which you should seriously do if you wanna argue his worth. In what way does he have a get away better than say Vayne, Graves, Quinn, or Trist? How does he poke better than Graves, Quinn, Trist, MF? What can he do that's not done better by half the other serious ADCs?

[Pseudo Stupidity]

First I have to strike down the ult thing. His ult is EXTREMELY easy to dodge and once you dodge it he is essentially screwed. So even IF you can get it going with decent damage good luck trying to hit with it consistently or continuously enough for it to be a big deal.

Second I really don't know why you're making a big deal about his speed. He has an ability that seriously gives him a small speed boost IF and only IF he hits with it and makes an attack. You can get the same speed boost with a mallet or just a hero that boosts their speed (Yi, Quinn, Udyr, Teemo, Vayne). He has a dash. Same as Graves, same as Quinn, same as Vayne, same as Talon. Graves has CC, Quinn straight up "gets" distance, Vayne can go Invisi and pushes, etc etc. He has NOTHING to save him outside of the dash and then that's it.

You say he duels well but I'm not seeing it. Even considering BotRK you can easily stop him from farming BECAUSE he is bad in lane and if you do it right by the time he GETS enough to get that he is so far behind it doesn't matter. Just about every other ADC that matters out does him in damage from beginning to end of the game.

The best he can do is "poke" mid game but mid game Vayne, Draven, Quinn, etc are straight up killing mofos. I "want" to like Lucian. I really really do. He's just not that good if you put him next to other ADCs which you should seriously do if you wanna argue his worth. In what way does he have a get away better than say Vayne, Graves, Quinn, or Trist? How does he poke better than Graves, Quinn, Trist, MF? What can he do that's not done better by half the other serious ADCs?

Calling his ult easy to dodge is nonsense, it's a bunch of fast, long-ranged projectiles coming from the primary target in fights. People are trying to reach him and they are either not reaching him or they are eating his ult. His ult isn't supposed to be used unless targets are locked down, running scared, or actively chasing him. It's easier to hit than Bullet Time (which requires a CC to work effectively, though Lucian's ult is just as strong if your team has CC) and is less easy to interrupt/dodge, yet Bullet Time is seen as a great ADC ult.

You underestimate Lucian's mobility and overestimate that of Vayne/Graves. Lucian's dash is longer range than Vayne's and cleanses slows (and resets if he gets a kill during his ult), his MS boost is 40 (almost as much as tier 2 boots) and he can keep it up for a long time, and his ult lets him kite without losing damage or mobility. Vayne is caught if you hit her with a decent slow because her dash has shitty range, her passive is only there if chasing, and people can close condemn's range quickly against a slowed target (in addition to it having a bit of a cast time). Lucian is only caught if he is hard CCed or chased by somebody with extremely high MS.

The only legitimate complaint about Lucian is his shitty laning (though honestly, the duo lane is more based on synergy) and kind of weak endgame scaling outside of his ult.

No other ADC is as mobile as Lucian, and while it's not the best selling point for an ADC it still is one.

Quinn isn't an ADC no matter how Riot planned it, in the same way that Leona and Taric aren't top lane tanks.

[Kaelik]

I'm sorry, I am fucking tired of this bullshit about how he is so mobile because you can't catch him, and if you dodge his ult it did his work.

That's fucking trash. If you have a gap closer and a slow, he is already caught, because you just stand anywhere near him and he dashes, you fucking gap close and slow.

If you have an AoE slow, you have caught him. If you have any hard CC, you know, like every real character that is played in the game except ADCs, you have him caught.

He is not super fucking mobile, and he isn't the main target. If you have a Lucian in a Teamfight, and he uses his ult, and it hits no one, but he lives through it because they dodged it, then he is fucking useless because you can fucking kill everyone in the group before he can kill anyone, because he has no fucking damage.

And as for this "if you dodge the ult, you don't close" bullshit, you just walk slightly to the left the whole time and he can't get it on you. Because fucking shitfucks, it doesn't do anything, you just move and keep moving, you get out of the way and stay out of the way.

And for fucks sake, that reset on an ult kill, fuck right off, Trist gets a reset on every kill, and trist actually gets kills, because her auto attacks while qed actually do more damage than his ult without being dodgable.

Lucian changes that would make him actually remotely viable:

1) The ult fucking autolocks on nearest target, instead of shooting in a direction into nobody.
2) The dash resets on all kills, because he doesn't even get ult kills.
3) the mark does any amount of damage at all, just because.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

I'm sorry, I am fucking tired of this bullshit about how he is so mobile because you can't catch him, and if you dodge his ult it did his work.

That's fucking trash. If you have a gap closer and a slow, he is already caught, because you just stand anywhere near him and he dashes, you fucking gap close and slow.

If you have an AoE slow, you have caught him. If you have any hard CC, you know, like every real character that is played in the game except ADCs, you have him caught.

He is not super fucking mobile, and he isn't the main target. If you have a Lucian in a Teamfight, and he uses his ult, and it hits no one, but he lives through it because they dodged it, then he is fucking useless because you can fucking kill everyone in the group before he can kill anyone, because he has no fucking damage.

And as for this "if you dodge the ult, you don't close" bullshit, you just walk slightly to the left the whole time and he can't get it on you. Because fucking shitfucks, it doesn't do anything, you just move and keep moving, you get out of the way and stay out of the way.

And for fucks sake, that reset on an ult kill, fuck right off, Trist gets a reset on every kill, and trist actually gets kills, because her auto attacks while qed actually do more damage than his ult without being dodgable.

Lucian changes that would make him actually remotely viable:

1) The ult fucking autolocks on nearest target, instead of shooting in a direction into nobody.
2) The dash resets on all kills, because he doesn't even get ult kills.
3) the mark does any amount of damage at all, just because.

First..."If you have an AoE slow you have caught him"

What? He cleanses the fuck right out of it with his 0 mana slow cleansing dash.

Ult dodging:

Dodging his ult by moving to the side is all well and good...unless he *gasp* moves with you or just lets it hit your team because you certainly aren't closing on him while you move to the side and it has a large range. He can mirror your movements if he really wants to shoot you, or hit squishy people in the back since you aren't tanking his high damage ult.

Do you think Bullet Time is terrible? Because Lucian's ult is very similar, but less failure prone because you can reposition during it.


"If you have a gap closer and a slow he is already caught"

You're suggesting you can just walk up to a ranged champion who has a 40 MS boost. Here's what happens if you just walk up to Lucian: He casts his MS proc shit on you, shoots you twice, and kites away with autos because he is now faster than you. If you use your gap closer to actually reach him he will dash if your slow is melee range, or shoot and scoot until he's out of range if it isn't. When your slow is used he will dash to cleanse it and resume kiting. While this kind of kiting is hard to do as a normal ADC, Lucian is fast when his MS boost is active and it lasts for long enough to kite somebody to death.

What the fuck happens to any other AD when you have a gap closer and slow? Vayne can knock you back... but because you slowed her when you gap closed you walk right back up to her and kill her ass because she can't kite you with her low base MS and a dash that literally takes half a second to close. The only other AD who survives the gap closer + slow problem is Tristana, and she burns her ult to escape and has the slowest dash in the history of dashes.


"Real characters in the game all have hard cc"

Characters who dive and were seen in recent tournaments with no guaranteed (and we'll say very hard to dodge stuff like Malphite ults count as guaranteed even though they are dodged fairly often) hard CC: Zed, Nocturne, Kennen, Fizz, Elise, J4, Eve, Aatrox, Kha'Zix...pretty much every diver with substantial damage. Fun fact: flash is the common answer to most of these, and Lucian's dash is slightly longer range than flash.


"Lucian has no fucking damage"

Lucian double procs on-hits (BotRK being the one worth mentioning) after each cast, along with 50% of his damage (can crit). He has more damage than Ashe and Caitlyn, and very high mid-game damage if he rushes a BotRK. His sustained damage in a fight is comparable to that of Graves or MF. He's not a hyper-carry like Vayne, Kog, or Trist, but neither is anybody else. His steroid is his passive and it's firmly in OK territory.

The idea that Lucian doesn't have the damage to kill anyone is absurd. He is an ADC, he is going to be built glass cannon up until the end game and thus kill tanks in 10 seconds or less, and anyone else much, much faster.


The one buff that's really appropriate on Lucian would be letting his dash reset on a kill, because it's minor and feels good and it's frankly kind of stupid it wasn't like that in the first place because resets are fucking fun. It's just a free flash + double shot, it isn't a primary damage source like Kha'zix or something.

[Korgan0]

Uh, Nocturne has his fear (2 seconds isn't that long), Kennen has a stun that you can proc fairly easily with a W+E+Q, Fizz has a knockup, Elise has a stun, J4 has a knockup and a wall, and Aatrox has a knockup.

[...You Lost Me]

Uh, Nocturne has his fear (2 seconds isn't that long)

Dash gets him out of range, noc has no slow.

Kennen has a stun that you can proc fairly easily with a W+E+Q,

This requires hitting with a skill shot blocked by minions with a small hitbox and short range, and getting in their space (not even melee range)

Fizz has a knockup

Skill shot with a small hitbox and short range. Moves slower than kennen's shuriken.

Elise has a stun

Skill shot blocked by minions.

J4 has a knockup and a wall

K srsly how often does Jarvan actually knock someone up with that unless they're dueling him or they're stupid. Wall ain't no hard cc because dashing is easy.

and Aatrox has a knockup.

Small hitbox (you can literally walk out of knockup range while he's in the air with lv1 boots) with a huge telegraph.

Guaranteed == Enormous Hitbox or Point-and-Click. Ashe ult, malphite ult, tf's gold card, taric's dazzle, those are "guaranteed".

[Korgan0]

If you're actually diving someone as J4 the knockup is trivial to land, both Kennen and Fizz's CC can be landed easily at point-blank range thanks to gap closers and unit collision removers, and while Noct doesn't have a slow his Q functions as an MS steroid and noct's diving potential peaks midgame in any case. They're not guaranteed, certainly, but they're easier to land than you're presenting and are an integral part of a successful dive.

[...You Lost Me]

Jarvan drops flag -> Lucian dashes out of the line -> no knockup. Lucian can move before the projectile falls, Jarvan has to wait until it's almost there.

Kennen has to use that gap closer to get adjacent, so you'd better hope Lucian hasn't ulted or jumped in any kind of brush if you're planning on using it from engagement distance instead of attack range.

If fizz is planning on getting in lucian's point-blank range, he will be using playful, which means the cc is unreliable in that fizz will be balls deep in enemy lines and might not survive to make the kill worthwhile.

[Kaelik]

Jarvan drops flag -> Lucian dashes out of the line -> no knockup. Lucian can move before the projectile falls, Jarvan has to wait until it's almost there.

Okay, and then Jarvan uses Ult and Lucian is trapped because he just used Dash.

Like, literally every plan about how Lucian is mobile assumes he has more dashes than the other team has slows and CCs, and that is fucking retarded. Lots of single characters can CC him themselves, like Oriana, but even then, if you assume two characters are going for the ADC and they both have anything at all, he instantly stops being "really mobile hur dur, because he always has the dash up in every fight sometimes seven or eight times in a single fight, or twice in one second against a single character like Jarvan" and becomes "Oh yeah, he is fucking dead."

Like every "mobile" shit assumes his dash is always off cooldown.

[Korgan0]

And then Lucian flashes out, and uses his MS steroid plus damage/ult to kite and kill Jarvan, and then turns and nukes the rest of the team.

[Kaelik]

And then Lucian flashes out, and uses his MS steroid plus damage/ult to kite and kill Jarvan, and then turns and nukes the rest of the team.

And then any person on the team who is not Jarvan kills Lucian with an Orianna ball or an Ahri dash/charm/Orb/fire because he just blew flash and his jump on one guy, and Jarvan survives the ult because the ult doesn't even do that much damage, and Jarvan is a tank, and that's assuming he doesn't move to the left far enough that Lucian would have to walk through a wall to keep shooting him.

And meanwhile, while you are blowing your entire ult that does any damage at all, your entire team is in bullet time and they all fucking die.

And the part where an ultless Lucian turns around and kills the team is fucking ridiculous, because just the adc alone is going to kill Lucian, because he can't even attack them from outside their range, and they do more damage, whether it is Ashe (who could arrow him) or MF, or Cait, or Tristana, or Vayne, and all of those have a fucking slow or knockback because fuck.

I mean fuck, are you listening to yourself, you are pretending that his Move speed Steroid is so badass, even though it is less effective peel than Ashes volley, or MFs rain, or Caits dash and slow, or Vayne's condem.

[MGuy]

And then Lucian flashes out, and uses his MS steroid plus damage/ult to kite and kill Jarvan, and then turns and nukes the rest of the team.

Why would I, playing Jarvan, chase him during a team fight he's already run away from? Lucian does -1 damage to me, the tank, at this point and while he's trying to be less than pathetic (by concentrating on teh tank for some dumbass reason) his team is getting curbed by an ADC that ACTUALLY does something. I might as well continue, you know, doing something useful instead of chasing after an ineffective ADC. I know this because I've done it before.

I am seriously not sure what games you guys are playing where Lucian is apparently 1 dash from freedom no matter what, can apparently overcome the crippling LACK OF DAMAGE he does, and apparently makes himself useful fighting tanks. Apparently you all play people who constantly miss skill shots and don't know how to jump on him from cover AND do not gank as more than one person.

Just some of the examples. Fizz, especially at Level 6 + ROCKS his world in every way. Assuming he just doesn't dash with his lance right off the bat to close distance he playfuls into distance of Lucian, lucian dashes and Fizz can either dash with his lance immediately to hold that distance or slaps his ult on him right there, slowing him up with no cc, dead.

Let's say Elise's stun doesn't hit (and for god's sake assume this elise knows how to not shoot minions with it). So she Qs him for a slow with Rylai's while still closing distance. Oh noes he dashes? R -> Rappel -> attack to slow more -> Dead.

Kennen is straight up faster than this mofo with his ability so he runs into him, fucks him up with his rotation for stun, dead. NEXT

Nocturne Ults straight to him fears, fucks him up. Lucian HAS to create distance RIGHT there because seriously he deals -1 damage, so he dashes, Nocturne already hit him with Q so he just chases him down -> dead.

From the plans to get away with Lucian I'm seeing I have to ask are you guys playing Normies with him only?

[Pseudo Stupidity]

And then Lucian flashes out, and uses his MS steroid plus damage/ult to kite and kill Jarvan, and then turns and nukes the rest of the team.

Why would I, playing Jarvan, chase him during a team fight he's already run away from? Lucian does -1 damage to me, the tank, at this point and while he's trying to be less than pathetic (by concentrating on teh tank for some dumbass reason) his team is getting curbed by an ADC that ACTUALLY does something. I might as well continue, you know, doing something useful instead of chasing after an ineffective ADC. I know this because I've done it before.

I am seriously not sure what games you guys are playing where Lucian is apparently 1 dash from freedom no matter what, can apparently overcome the crippling LACK OF DAMAGE he does, and apparently makes himself useful fighting tanks. Apparently you all play people who constantly miss skill shots and don't know how to jump on him from cover AND do not gank as more than one person.

Just some of the examples. Fizz, especially at Level 6 + ROCKS his world in every way. Assuming he just doesn't dash with his lance right off the bat to close distance he playfuls into distance of Lucian, lucian dashes and Fizz can either dash with his lance immediately to hold that distance or slaps his ult on him right there, slowing him up with no cc, dead.

Let's say Elise's stun doesn't hit (and for god's sake assume this elise knows how to not shoot minions with it). So she Qs him for a slow with Rylai's while still closing distance. Oh noes he dashes? R -> Rappel -> attack to slow more -> Dead.

Kennen is straight up faster than this mofo with his ability so he runs into him, fucks him up with his rotation for stun, dead. NEXT

Nocturne Ults straight to him fears, fucks him up. Lucian HAS to create distance RIGHT there because seriously he deals -1 damage, so he dashes, Nocturne already hit him with Q so he just chases him down -> dead.

From the plans to get away with Lucian I'm seeing I have to ask are you guys playing Normies with him only?

Everyone needs to shut the fuck up about Lucian not having damage, because he has more damage than Ashe, the ADC Cloud 9 has a 100% win rate with. She is effective enough at damage that everyone wants to kill her in fights, and Lucian does more damage. Shut the fuck up about his "lack of damage" just because he isn't Vayne. He deals more damage than Cait or Ashe, and has sustained damage roughly equal to MF/Graves/Varus (kind of depends on blight and spells).


I don't know what world you guys live in where assassins and ADCs walk right up to each other in fights and play punch for punch. The entire point of tanks and bruisers is they catch, kill or zone the other team's damage dealers so they can't deal damage (or at worst, they deal damage to the tanks/bruisers). That's why mobility is important, because getting caught = dying if you are a squishy damage source.

A Zac jumping on a squishy is way more likely than Vayne running through a fight to duel the other team's ADC because Vayne will get CCed and killed in transit, whereas Zac might get CCed and damaged, but he isn't going to die (as quickly) and tanking so his own damage dealers can kill people is his job. Assassins are assassins because they have abilities to help them get in and out of fights to kill squishies, but they still don't run through tank lines unless they're super fed.


A competent, not even good, adc will save their mobility skills (if they have any) to deal with divers or secure a kill on a high priority target that moves into range. Lucian has his dash up because a diver coming in or a skillshot CC he can't just sidestep are the only reasons he's going to use it if the fight hasn't already been won.

There's a reason J4 isn't knocking Lucian up and Kennen isn't stunning him without flashes being burned on their end (a little unfair to assume they have flash and Lucian doesn't, right?). It's because there are other people who are in the way, even if they aren't actively peeling. Noct, as I said in the first place, is one of the only divers who's actually able to stick unless he whiffs his Q or Lucian burns flash and dash fast enough to break the leash.


Saying "but what if champ X has item Y" is dumb as well, because I have yet to see Lucian fail to build a BotRK as his very first item, and we're not including that because it makes him fucking impossible to solo dive without your own BotRK instead of just "very hard."


Also, a 2 second 40 MS steroid (that you proc constantly) is exactly badass enough to kite any champion (sans hard gap closers) in the game who isn't a speed demon like Yi/Udyr and doesn't have more MS items than you. So yes, it is sufficiently badass. Ashe's frost shot is great for kiting, but she has no answer to hard gap closers, slows, or even hard to dodge skillshots. Lucian has a kiting tool that's like a reverse frost shot (outcome is the same, Lucian is faster than his opponent) and he also has an answer to hard gap closers, slows, and hard to dodge skill shots.[/b]

[...You Lost Me]

And then any person on the team who is not Jarvan kills Lucian with an Orianna ball or an Ahri dash/charm/Orb/fire because he just blew flash and his jump on one guy, and Jarvan survives the ult because the ult doesn't even do that much damage, and Jarvan is a tank, and that's assuming he doesn't move to the left far enough that Lucian would have to walk through a wall to keep shooting him.

So the enemy team gets super long range mage attacks but Lucian is sitting by himself without even a BotRK and he hasn't even landed his movespeed buff.

That's what we call a bad player. Congratulations on ganking a bad player.

And meanwhile, while you are blowing your entire ult that does any damage at all, your entire team is in bullet time and they all fucking die.

Oh my bad three people versus one. Or is the entire team sitting with their thumb up their ass? Bullet Time requires someone to stand still and channel, so it's actually easy for a Jarvan, Noc, Kennen, etc. to stop it. Unlike Lucian who you will not catch.

And the part where an ultless Lucian turns around and kills the team is fucking ridiculous, because just the adc alone is going to kill Lucian, because he can't even attack them from outside their range, and they do more damage, whether it is Ashe (who could arrow him) or MF, or Cait, or Tristana, or Vayne, and all of those have a fucking slow or knockback because fuck.

Right, so now after every member of the opposing team has dove Lucian and used their important damage spells, then the ADC runs into the fucking teamfight while your team blindfolds themselves and spins in circles doing nothing, and only actually gets him because he's used all his spells. Do you actually understand how fights work.

I mean fuck, are you listening to yourself, you are pretending that his Move speed Steroid is so badass, even though it is less effective peel than Ashes volley, or MFs rain, or Caits dash and slow, or Vayne's condem.

Move speed steroid procs multiple times (for multiple attacks on targets hit), lets you pull off stupid damage because it activates his passive, can't be blocked like Volley or 90 Caliber Net, persists regardless of enemy positioning unlike Make it Rain, and will get you away from all the people instead of maybe one person like Condemn.

It's absolutely not a godlike ability. It has a smaller AoE than volley, doesn't get over walls like a dash, it's far less effective than Make it Rain if you're cc'd, and it requires an attack to pull off, but it's still a very strong ability. Insisting WARGLAAF ALL OTHER PEEL ALWAYS BETTER is dumb. Very dumb.

[MGuy]

And then Lucian flashes out, and uses his MS steroid plus damage/ult to kite and kill Jarvan, and then turns and nukes the rest of the team.

Why would I, playing Jarvan, chase him during a team fight he's already run away from? Lucian does -1 damage to me, the tank, at this point and while he's trying to be less than pathetic (by concentrating on teh tank for some dumbass reason) his team is getting curbed by an ADC that ACTUALLY does something. I might as well continue, you know, doing something useful instead of chasing after an ineffective ADC. I know this because I've done it before.

I am seriously not sure what games you guys are playing where Lucian is apparently 1 dash from freedom no matter what, can apparently overcome the crippling LACK OF DAMAGE he does, and apparently makes himself useful fighting tanks. Apparently you all play people who constantly miss skill shots and don't know how to jump on him from cover AND do not gank as more than one person.

Just some of the examples. Fizz, especially at Level 6 + ROCKS his world in every way. Assuming he just doesn't dash with his lance right off the bat to close distance he playfuls into distance of Lucian, lucian dashes and Fizz can either dash with his lance immediately to hold that distance or slaps his ult on him right there, slowing him up with no cc, dead.

Let's say Elise's stun doesn't hit (and for god's sake assume this elise knows how to not shoot minions with it). So she Qs him for a slow with Rylai's while still closing distance. Oh noes he dashes? R -> Rappel -> attack to slow more -> Dead.

Kennen is straight up faster than this mofo with his ability so he runs into him, fucks him up with his rotation for stun, dead. NEXT

Nocturne Ults straight to him fears, fucks him up. Lucian HAS to create distance RIGHT there because seriously he deals -1 damage, so he dashes, Nocturne already hit him with Q so he just chases him down -> dead.

From the plans to get away with Lucian I'm seeing I have to ask are you guys playing Normies with him only?

Everyone needs to shut the fuck up about Lucian not having damage, because he has more damage than Ashe, the ADC Cloud 9 has a 100% win rate with. She is effective enough at damage that everyone wants to kill her in fights, and Lucian does more damage. Shut the fuck up about his "lack of damage" just because he isn't Vayne. He deals more damage than Cait or Ashe, and has sustained damage roughly equal to MF/Graves/Varus (kind of depends on blight and spells).

Ashe also has the ability to get money quickly, she has a stun and a slow, and has a built in crit. So yeah, Ashe can do less damage but she has other USEFUL abilities to really make up for it all. I'm all for talking about how ASHE is a BETTER champ than Lucian if that's what you wanna do because I like, already essentially said that she was. I would say I'd take Ashe over Lucian any day but I'd be lying because I bought Lucian and have played (and won) with him about half the times I picked him.

He is 'ok' at poking and that's all I ever feel for him. I don't pick him now because I don't play too many normal games and there is seriously no good reason to pick him over other ADCs. Yes I 'can' possibly make something happen with him but the difficulty in doing so is simply not worth the aggravation. There HAS to be a GOOD reason for me to pick him over other, better, ADCs. The only ADCs I'd pick him over, if I were forced to not pick a good ADC like Trist, Vayne, Draven, or MF would be Ezreal and Varus. I do think Varus is better than Lucian because he has more CC and can be counted on to deal reliable damage the whole game but I simply don't like Varus. And Ez? Fuck EZ.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

While I agree with fuck Ez, I really think you just don't appreciate what Lucian brings to the table. He'd be great in a dive comp because of his mobility, self-sufficiency, and good single-target burst in the form of his ult and double attacks.

Reason to pick Lucian over any other ADC: He is more mobile. You can say mobility isn't worth the tradeoffs (no utility, merely OK range, no huge steroids), but Lucian is the most mobile ADC in the game. That's not subjective, Lucian moves around better than any other ADC and his entire kit is built around that.

Also, when mentioning the pros of Ashe her Hawkshot gold is not one of them. It's ~100 gold in lane phase if you laned for like, 15 minutes (you don't skill it until 4 under normal circumstances, lest you lose a kill or trades due to lack of a slow or volley's horrible CD at early ranks). Hawkshot is maybe 400 gold before you've hit full build, but really the game is usually over before Hawkshot's passive does anything meaningful. Now, the active is tits, but its passive is almost an apology for Ashe being the worst duelist ADC by leaps and bounds.

[Kaelik]

While I agree with fuck Ez, I really think you just don't appreciate what Lucian brings to the table. He'd be great in a dive comp because of his mobility, self-sufficiency, and good single-target burst in the form of his ult and double attacks.

Reason to pick Lucian over any other ADC: He is more mobile. You can say mobility isn't worth the tradeoffs (no utility, merely OK range, no huge steroids), but Lucian is the most mobile ADC in the game. That's not subjective, Lucian moves around better than any other ADC and his entire kit is built around that.

I have an alternative theory, which is that you don't appreciate how bad Lucian is. Okay range? He literally has the worse range of an adc. No huge Steroids? With his passive, his only steroid at all, he catches up to real adcs not using their steroids. Most mobile? Bullshit that might even be true depending on your definition, but it also might not be, and no matter what your definition, he is more mobile by the tinniest shittiest amount. Vayne has a larger MS boost chasing and a shorter cooldown dash. Lucian's MS boost, despite what his defenders who have never played him keep saying, is pretty fucking shitty, and isn't even really an escape at all except in laning phase, and sure doesn't help at all in teamfights where your choice is to run away and be useless or stay close enough for them to gap close because all the gap closers in the game have longer range than Lucian.

[Korgan0]

He has a range of 550, which, while not great, is better than both Sivir and Graves. Vayne's dash is far shorter than Lucian's and doesn't go on cooldown until you fire the boosted shot making straight up-running far slower the lower your attack speed is.

[...You Lost Me]

I think Kaelik's point is that if you're not Caitlyn or Vayne you are a terrible champ. And I think that's the sign of too many normals.

[Kaelik]

I think Kaelik's point is that if you're not Caitlyn or Vayne you are a terrible champ. And I think that's the sign of too many normals.

No, my point is that Ashe, Vayne, Graves, Varus, Miss Fortune, Trist and Twitch are all better in lane than Lucian, and bring more to Team Fights than Lucian.

Cait brings as much to less to a team fight, but is very good in lane.

If you champ is worse in all aspects of the game than nearly everyone else at your role, you are shit. Lucian is worse at every part of the game than others of his role. He is shit.

He'll we already have the mobile caster AD in ez, and he's just a better version of Lucian.

[MGuy]

While I agree with fuck Ez, I really think you just don't appreciate what Lucian brings to the table. He'd be great in a dive comp because of his mobility, self-sufficiency, and good single-target burst in the form of his ult and double attacks.

Reason to pick Lucian over any other ADC: He is more mobile. You can say mobility isn't worth the tradeoffs (no utility, merely OK range, no huge steroids), but Lucian is the most mobile ADC in the game. That's not subjective, Lucian moves around better than any other ADC and his entire kit is built around that.

Also, when mentioning the pros of Ashe her Hawkshot gold is not one of them. It's ~100 gold in lane phase if you laned for like, 15 minutes (you don't skill it until 4 under normal circumstances, lest you lose a kill or trades due to lack of a slow or volley's horrible CD at early ranks). Hawkshot is maybe 400 gold before you've hit full build, but really the game is usually over before Hawkshot's passive does anything meaningful. Now, the active is tits, but its passive is almost an apology for Ashe being the worst duelist ADC by leaps and bounds.

Well you got my point. As for his mobility... I seriously don't see it as abig deal. As Kaelik said and I pointed out with the Jarv4 scenario, if he runs he's spending all that time not doing anything and if he's just gonna pot shot at me (the tank) then he is still not doing anything. His speetd boosty requires two more steps than other heroes who just get speed. He just is not good enough. I'd probably pick him over sivir (since they nerfed her during the time I was away from the game for no reason) but that's not saying much.

If there is only one scenario (diving) that he's good at then seriously I'd rather be another champ that can do more. Riot needs to fuckin' give him a pick up (and they need to stop fucking with Draven and give him a decent fucking passive again) or else he's going to see less and less use. Hell it hasn't been that long since his release and I don't even see him in ranked anymore.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Why do you guys think that ADCs shooting tanks is a bad thing? That's what ADCs shoot at 90% of the time because they have to kite away from tanks who walk up to them or they'll get CCed and slaughtered. The entire point of having a tank is so ADC shoots them or gets CCed long enough for the tank's team to kill them (that and initiation). Mobility is powerful because it stops you from getting fucked by tanks and divers.

I wouldn't pick Lucian unless I had a low peel/divey team, CC/bruiser heavy enemy team, or I was super comfortable on him, but that's just me. Having different champs bring different things to the table is the whole point of having different champs. Caitlyn is trash outside of fast push/siege comps, Vayne is crap in sieges and teamfights against big AoEs, Graves is incredibly dangerous and relies on AoE burst, etc. Every ADC is weak when it comes to certain things and strong when it comes to certain things.

Weirdly enough, on the anecdotal "I don't see Lucians" front, I just saw one in ranked; he rolled our Ezreal/Janna bot lane. I'm not sure how because I was busy being Cho top and not having an effect on that lane, but it happened. Then our Eve left and we got stomped trying to stall, but it was probably over because Lucian had 4 kills coming out of the lane phase and plenty of farm while our Ez was trying to get a fucking Triforce even though he was behind.


Also, I finally found a ranked 5s team. It's super fun even though I have to play ADC. We just got out of placements and lost one game during it, so we got placed at Silver IV. Got a long road ahead of us...