How do we get rid of the Fighter

[Rawbeard]

4e solution to make everyone not do anything interesting and never changing the game from "guys punching things in the face". Basically make magic boring, or at least make magic not do anything that a mundane could not do also without much effort.

Don't rework the game, rework the fighter!

There will never be a solution that is universally accepted. I just settled to the idea that people NEED the fighter to suck, so they can feel awesome when handwavium makes them shine. Or something.

[nockermensch]

As captivating as this social justice derail is can we please not, or a least take it to a different thread.

So to get us back on track. Assume the fighter isn't viable as a D&D class, how would you rework the game to deal with this.

Define better "the game". I'll repeat what I said about 10 pages ago:

1) to fix your current d&d game: don't use the fighter.
2) to write your fantasy heart-breaker: don't use the fighter, use the N suggestions the Den already gave (everybody has a power-source over lvl 6, whatever)
3) to fix other people's d&d games: are you Lago or something?

It's 1, 2 or 3, Misty?

[Midnight_v]

As captivating as this social justice derail is can we please not, or a least take it to a different thread.

So to get us back on track. Assume the fighter isn't viable as a D&D class, how would you rework the game to deal with this.

Fuck you, no. The base assumption is the problem... buuuut, okay. okay Its your thread so you're looking for answers to your specific problem.

Rawbeard is right, and honestly you won't find a universal answer, because enough people love it, and any 3 groups will give you different problems they see with any solution... and discount it because of those problems. So it gets no where.
From what I see there are 3 problems that most of you guys have with the fighter.
Full stop...
I just spent a portion of my life writing the following....

1. What then name implies (which is "nothing, or baggage of must suck).

2. Inefficiency, at playing the game once it goes "Cosmic".

3. A good portion of you are know-it-all ass holes. (not something I can help you with, as I have the same affliction).

Answers
So you can actually get good solutions to the first 2 problems.
1. Change the name to what you really want.
Between you and me, most people are only familiar with the word "Thane" from Elderscroll: Dragon-rim-job, if at all. So that's pretty much a non-starter.

Seriously, though there's not enough traction with most names. Therefore, in a lot of ways if the whole deal with the class is "I stab shit professionally, and in my offtime" you can go with "warrior". You can go with "hero" or "solider" or something like that as well, but regardless pick a name you can stomach and go with that. I don't like "Warrior" either but that's a part of my point. Very few things are generic and specific enough at the same time to cover all the people with swords out there.
Pick a name you think you can self-justify and go with it.

2. When the game goes cosmic.
If I'm not mistaken, there's a segment of the population here who feel like the "fighter" and his ilk "DMF'S", and VAH's... shouldn't exist at all outside low level adventures.
In a lot of way's they're right, Indiana Jones can't really "FIGHT" Galactus. Even the whole word has to play "fetch, McGuffin" when something like that show's up.
In a lot of way's they're wrong, because while D&D made Atrophus "The elder evil, galactus" most of the problems really can be stopped by stabbing the thing causing them, and thats the nature of the game.
There was a whole thread on here about how no one could really explain what they meant about "High-level" and why fighter can't be there. Stuff like: "My brother wants to run a Krakatoa/Pompeii campaign, where the goal is to save as many people as you can the day before the disaster.

Wait..... Fuck you guys/

.... The it occurred to me that we've had this talk many times before. . .

The most significant of these disucssions was:

The reason the fighter will never have nice things

Where everyone who knows jack shit about the positions in this showed up and discussed it to death.
3 years later, you're still debating the same problem set?

The fighter isn't going anywhere or "being gotten rid of" because who you have running the systems in ttrpg's.
If you want a viable solution in your own game? Pick 1, there is ever possible solution in that thread, and several arguments why most of the arguments about "High-level" play are basically bullshit. Sometimes, what is being defined isn't even High level.

Though most of the things you could want are there.

[...You Lost Me]

Oh for fuck's sake, read "Race and Slavery in the Middle East" by Bernard Lewis or something.

You think it's so unfathomable that early Arab explorers in Africa from 1300 years ago were racist? That their observations were maybe colored by that racism? Do you even realize that slavery was a big part of history in the Middle East, and that Arabs had black slaves? Fuck.

No, see the thing is that Drolyt wants to get offended and say that things are controversial, like JE in the Legend thread when he talks about white privilege. It's dumber than his non-existent problems with Vancian casting and I don't see why people haven't just put him on ignore because he obviously doesn't contribute anything useful to the discussions at hand.

[Mistborn]

3) to fix other people's d&d games: are you Lago or something?

Fuck you nocker, remember when designers intent was create a game where you could be a Fighter for 1-30 levels. They made 4e and guess what that game sucks. Thus it's clear we need to eliminate the Fighter.

Why do you want to ruin D&D so badly nocker?

[zugschef]

when i first heard of dnd and the "fighter" class, my initial thought was "what a stupid class name". i'd really like to know if that reaction has a significant occurrence.

[Midnight_v]

3) to fix other people's d&d games: are you Lago or something?

Fuck you nocker, remember when designers intent was create a game where you could be a Fighter for 1-30 levels. They made 4e and guess what that game sucks. Thus it's clear we need to eliminate the Fighter.

Why do you want to ruin D&D so badly nocker?

Something about that logic doesn't follow. . . not sure what.

[nockermensch]

3) to fix other people's d&d games: are you Lago or something?

Fuck you nocker, remember when designers intent was create a game where you could be a Fighter for 1-30 levels. They made 4e and guess what that game sucks. Thus it's clear we need to eliminate the Fighter.

Why do you want to ruin D&D so badly nocker?

Before that, the designers also created a game where Fighters were playable for 1-36 and then 1-20 levels. That they weren't actually playable in 3.X without becoming Elothars speaks only of the weak understanding the designers had about their own rule-set. That up to this day a lot of people didn't notice that tells us that cognitive dissonance is probably the strongest force in the universe.

Then I ask: "ruin the game" for whom? The people who don't notice the fighter is a problem are running their games without problems. Given how d&d next playtest answers go, those people are a majority.

Why do you hate Democracy, Mistborn?

[Avoraciopoctules]

Why do you hate Democracy, Mistborn?

[Mistborn]

Before that, the designers also created a game where Fighters were playable for 1-36 and then 1-20 levels.

No they didn't, stop being such a disgrace.

Then I ask: "ruin the game" for whom? The people who don't notice the fighter is a problem are running their games without problems. Given how d&d next playtest answers go, those people are a majority.

You admitted yourself that people do not fucking notice what the actual rules are due to their cognitive dissonance. Why should we fucking care what the player base thinks? They don't know dick.

You know why they don't know dick? It's because assholes like you lie to them and obstruficate the issue. Once again why are you so dead set on preventing the game from actually improving?

[Midnight_v]

Why do you hate Democracy, Mistborn?

Unwashed masses.

Jokes.

Seriously though, You're right. I mean about the part about people not noticing. Lots of people just... didn't, and still don't.
That doesn't mean those of us that DO notice "Hidden Class Features: Artifact Swords and power gloves. Feel any better about it.

Once I got laughed right out of the room, on here, and admittedly I was drunk, but laughed right out when I suggest giving those dudes as class features. I was like for the guy wants to play Marvel Comic's "Thor": At level X he gets a level X sorcerer companion name "Mjolnir" (who happens to be a hammer).
Now. Here at the den... not so much, but at my flgs, I brought it up one night, while they were having a break from D&D and a lot of interestings got said, a couple of "We're not playing SUPERHEROES, Dude" and a "Shouldn't u just make him a wizard" while the Dm goes: "We could, hell I've been giving the fighter super weapons for years... that be not too much different."
Its just funny, different people looking at it from way different perspectives. The things I see discussed here at the den, I've never heard before a lot of the time.
I got a question though...

...actually nevermind.

Enough people love the fighter for whatever reason that they have, that its not going any fucking where.
You're best bet is to fix it.
Tome Fighter Style: The Protagonist (Foil, and skills = magic)
Tome Knight Style / 4th Edition style: Name level = Auto prestige
or hey "Ban" the nonmagical fighter from your games.

This whole thing where you get people to take "fighter" out of their books entirely though?
They totally think you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, or don't care because well, that shit likely sounds bad for business, trying to have a game without Redgar or Valeros or whatever.

We're looking deep into something they're not looking too deeply at.

[nockermensch]

You admitted yourself that people do not fucking notice what the actual rules are due to their cognitive dissonance. Why should we fucking care what the player base thinks? They don't know dick.

You know why they don't know dick? It's because assholes like you lie to them and obstruficate the issue. Once again why are you so dead set on preventing the game from actually improving?

The game won't improve without fixing Conan and Arthurian legends first. Go pester the guys that write Conan to give him a power source. Sneak into libraries and write angel wings or fire-bending into Galahad or something. Then in 15 years or so, write an actually competent fighting class and and the new generation will approve. Or just play mutants and masterminds. Or pitch your epic-reaching game not as 'fantasy' but as 'it's medieval, but you get to play super-heroes', because I think the very concept of 'fantasy' is tainted with the crap-covered farm boy that grows to save the world (by hitting things with a sword) and if you want to fix the fighter, you need to attack the original problem.

But alright, ignore the snark and develop more your idea. What's your best case scenario? Lets suppose everybody here in the Den hold hands and dances a beautiful dance of harmony agreeing with you. The forum as a whole agrees that the Fighter just needs to go.

Then ... what? Do you start healing the very concept of D&D by directing people who disagree with you to a forum where people happen to agree? I'm genuinely confused here with what's the next step on your master plan.

[Drolyt]

No, see the thing is that Drolyt wants to get offended

No one here has offended me at all (maybe infected slut princess, but I might have read too much into that). You construe it that way because you want to ignore my completely valid concerns, but in the meantime the rest of us were having an actual discussion.

and say that things are controversial

What the fuck is wrong with controversy? People disagree about things, big deal. Some of us can discuss those issues like adults.

, like JE in the Legend thread when he talks about white privilege.

I'm not familiar with the thread in question, but privilege is a thing no matter how much those with privilege like to deny it.

It's dumber than his non-existent problems with Vancian casting

Seperate issue, but I concede I might be wrong about Vancian casting. I am completely right about the barbarian thing though.

and I don't see why people haven't just put him on ignore because he obviously doesn't contribute anything useful to the discussions at hand.

Because most people don't have a problem with disagreement? The only thing I might be guilty of (besides possibly being wrong, which isn't a crime) is causing this thread to go off topic.

[Mistborn]

The game won't improve without fixing Conan and Arthurian legends first. Go pester the guys that write Conan to give him a power source. Sneak into libraries and write angel wings or fire-bending into Galahad or something. Then in 15 years or so, write an actually competent fighting class and and the new generation will approve. Or just play mutants and masterminds. Or pitch your epic-reaching game not as 'fantasy' but as 'it's medieval, but you get to play super-heroes', because I think the very concept of 'fantasy' is tainted with the crap-covered farm boy that grows to save the world (by hitting things with a sword) and if you want to fix the fighter, you need to attack the original problem.

Nocker are you pulling my leg or are you really this retarded. No one could post on the den as long as you have a still demonstrate that level of ignorance. Please correct yourself.

[Seerow]

The game won't improve without fixing Conan and Arthurian legends first. Go pester the guys that write Conan to give him a power source. Sneak into libraries and write angel wings or fire-bending into Galahad or something. Then in 15 years or so, write an actually competent fighting class and and the new generation will approve. Or just play mutants and masterminds. Or pitch your epic-reaching game not as 'fantasy' but as 'it's medieval, but you get to play super-heroes', because I think the very concept of 'fantasy' is tainted with the crap-covered farm boy that grows to save the world (by hitting things with a sword) and if you want to fix the fighter, you need to attack the original problem.

Nocker are you pulling my leg or are you really this retarded. No one could post on the den as long as you have a still demonstrate that level of ignorance. Please correct yourself.

Irony thy name is LordMistborn.

[Drolyt]

Then I ask: "ruin the game" for whom? The people who don't notice the fighter is a problem are running their games without problems. Given how d&d next playtest answers go, those people are a majority.

Just because people don't notice a problem doesn't mean their game wouldn't be more fun without it.

[Almaz]

"You Lost Me" changing his signature makes me realize ISP suffers from RAS syndrome.

That is all.

[RadiantPhoenix]

"You Lost Me" changing his signature makes me realize ISP suffers from RAS syndrome.

That is all.

Um, what?

I don't see it.

[Drolyt]

"You Lost Me" changing his signature makes me realize ISP suffers from RAS syndrome.

That is all.

Um, what?

I don't see it.

I've occasionally heard "Internet ISP".

[DSMatticus]

everything is racist to the people on the TGD so go fuck yourself

the The Gaming Den

I'm not entirely confident I haven't made that one before myself - it's kind of subtle, because it's a 'the' and all.

[Prak]

as to the "everything is racist to Denizens" thing...
well it is a den. Though that generally would speak to us being racist, rather than finding things racist...

I think I lost my point there.

[Username17]

Fuck you, no.

Considering that someone just referred to the Nubians as cannibal nudist barbarians, I think getting offended at someone else that they are saying that people without power sources don't make good characters for higher powered games means that your outrage meter is broken. I suggest that you sit down and watch Animal Cops or Hotel Rwanda until it has been recalibrated.

The game won't improve without fixing Conan and Arthurian legends first. Go pester the guys that write Conan to give him a power source. Sneak into libraries and write angel wings or fire-bending into Galahad or something.

I don't know if you're deliberately trolling the boards at this point. Because that already happened. When Conan has to take on powerful beings, he does get powered up with magical power sources before that happens. Galahd already has angel wings.

Also, BJs in graveyards as near as I can tell.

The problem here is that we're talking about a moving target. The people who insist on not giving powers to the Fighter keep setting source material requirements on what would be required for the Fighter to deserve getting powers, and then those requirements are fucking met, and then a new moving target is set.

-Username17

[Darth Rabbitt]

I don't know if you're deliberately trolling the boards at this point.

I think nocker is trolling Mistborn, if even that:

But alright, ignore the snark and develop more your idea.

Probably since Mistborn refuses to acknowledge anything more modern than Lord of the Rings being appropriate source material for D&D (but states that the masses are idiots, which would imply that editing shit to "make them see the light" is perfectly fine) "source material requirements" for D&D are problematic.

[nockermensch]

Also, BJs in graveyards as near as I can tell.

I did a double take on that picture, yes. That is a power source I think everybody can agree with.

The problem here is that we're talking about a moving target. The people who insist on not giving powers to the Fighter keep setting source material requirements on what would be required for the Fighter to deserve getting powers, and then those requirements are fucking met, and then a new moving target is set.

It's not "trolling" per se, but pointing how fucked up are the general public perceptions of what "being a fighter" is, as proved again and again by Pathfinder's commercial success, the kind of feedback D&D Next gets and the general resistance people have to see the fucking problem. Gahalad is a paladin, so if he gets a Valkyrie going down on him that's expected. But I'd wager that for most people, Conan evokes images of "loinclothed howling barbarian" and not "crafty leader of men with good contacts all around (that howls when the situation demands)". It evokes this:

Even back then, we joked in our group about how that guy would be immediately pierced by about 200 bolts.

And yeah, it's my belief that lying artwork like that don't let people notice how the fighter suck. Specially when you tackle it on fukken D&D's cover. Shit like that made a generation grow up thinking that being Frank Frazetta's Conan is a viable character option. 3.x is guilty of this too:

Some people will not read the stats of a colossal red dragon and realize Tordek is making the last AoO of his life. They'll see the picture and say: "That's badass. I want to be that guy."

Finally, I agree that a class that only "fights" lacks the tools to compete in high level D&D. The arguments in the "why the fighter can't have nice things" thread are generally sound, as long as you refuse to give the little guy plot-bending powers (see: Discworld). So, since you're way more articulated that Misty I'm directing you to answer the question he didn't touch:

What's your best case scenario? Lets suppose everybody here in the Den hold hands and dances a beautiful dance of harmony agreeing with you. The forum as a whole agrees that the Fighter just needs to go.

Then ... what? Do you start healing the very concept of D&D by directing people who disagree with you to a forum where people happen to agree? I'm genuinely confused here with what's the next step on your master plan.

[Drolyt]

What's your best case scenario? Lets suppose everybody here in the Den hold hands and dances a beautiful dance of harmony agreeing with you. The forum as a whole agrees that the Fighter just needs to go.

Then ... what? Do you start healing the very concept of D&D by directing people who disagree with you to a forum where people happen to agree? I'm genuinely confused here with what's the next step on your master plan.

I've been wondering about this too. Is the plan to release a competing product? A coup d'etat of D&D Next? A set of house rules? I think most of us agree that fighter is a bad name for a class, but there isn't anything much we can do about it.