The Shadowrun Situation

[A Man In Black]

I wouldn't chalk it up to incompetence but rather, in CGL's case, misreading the market by assuming product interest would be so high several sub-fora would be needed.

That's incompetence.

[Neurosis]

Normally, when I see posts like this I file them away to the back of my mind or dismiss them outright because I'd rather form my own opinions when it comes to something I can so easily investigate myself. But in this case, I'm just going to take his word on it because Catalyst is apparently too dumb to realize that under no circumstances should a board focused on a single RPG ever need eighteen different sub-forums. I registered and posted a couple times and never went back, because seriously, that is some incompetence right there.

There is worse.

INFINITE FORUMS.

[UmaroVI]

I dunno, I got about as much "thumbs up" rep as "thumbs down" rep for this: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4098.0 on the "official" forums, but the thread on Dumpshock got closed.

[Otakusensei]

I dunno, I got about as much "thumbs up" rep as "thumbs down" rep for this: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4098.0 on the "official" forums, but the thread on Dumpshock got closed.

Well Played sir...

[raben-aas]

Jason wanted a positive feedback echo chamber, and with a significant amount of help he built one. It's the reason why I really don't give a shit about it or trust anything posted there. You can't.

The Den may be a bunch of short sighted dicks who have no self control and a reputation only slightly better than the IRS, but at least it's honest.

I dunno. If the official forums are Jason's positive feedback chamber, then the Den is the positive feedback chamber of the hardcore SR critics (I could say it's Frank's positive feedback chamber, but that would belittle all those who use it for that purpose).

I don't doubt that the Den is honest, mind you, I'm just saying that telling "the truth"(TM) in a circle where pretty much everyone has the same opinion hardly qualifies for a medal of honor.

In my eyes, both the official forum AND the Den are little retreats of likeminded RPG enthusiasts in which opinions rarely clash (it would take opposing views to do that) – they are places built for people (call em trolls or fanboys) patting each other's back.

Which leads to a very scary thought:

That Dumpshock is actually the only real and honest battleground for supporters and critics alike.

Hmmm... is DS a demilitarized zone? A no man's land? A warzone? Are the official forum and the Den the basecamps of two armies (or, rather, squads)?

- - -

Re: The official forums being "dishonest": Has anyone actually been banned from there? And in reaction to what post? (I'm just curious and do not know).

[Fuchs]

If you think the Den is a bunch of people patting each other on the back I want to know what you are smoking. People here rip into each other all the time, and rarely agree on one opinion.

It's rather more honest here than on DS - if you think the other guy is an idiot and his idea worthless you say so, you don't cover it up.

DS was, last I checked, more adhering to the "Those guys think the earth is flat, others think the earth is not flat, you'll have to agree to disagree and respect each other's opinion" attitude so prominent in some medias.

[raben-aas]

If you think the Den is a bunch of people patting each other on the back I want to know what you are smoking. People here rip into each other all the time, and rarely agree on one opinion.

That may be true for other topics/Game systems (I wouldn't know), but this for this thread here it sure is true.

It's rather more honest here than on DS - if you think the other guy is an idiot and his idea worthless you say so, you don't cover it up.

Ah. There has been a misunderstanding on my part. Silly me thought you can be honest AND polite. But if insulting people by being very "straightforward" qualifies for honesty (or "more honesty"), then the Den is the most honest forum of all. Signed.

DS was, last I checked, more adhering to the "Those guys think the earth is flat, others think the earth is not flat, you'll have to agree to disagree and respect each other's opinion" attitude so prominent in some medias.

I thought this was some kind of general human way to communicate and debate. And stand corrected.

[Fuchs]

Of course you can and probably should be be honest and polite - but most forums don't see that politeness doesn't mean you are not allowed to attack and belittle opinions. And yes, the more honest you are, the more difficult it is to remain polite - since no matter how you phrase it "I think you are stupid" is not a polite thing to say. But often honest. (Now, that doesn't mean it's better to be totally, brutally honest - but telling people what you really think of them IS more honest than not telling them.)

If someone thinks the earth is flat I won't respect his opinion. At all. And a forum where I have to respect such an opinion is not conductive to honesty.

You cannot debate if you have to accept and even respect every opinion. You have to be able to attack others' opinions, and rip them to shreds, expose their faults. Because if you respect ideas and opinions such as "the earth is flat" or "blacks are subhumans" and similar shit, you don't foster debate, you protect ignorance, racism and worse.

So, while it would be ideal to have a forum where you are polite to people, but not to their opinions, I prefer a forum where politeness is sacrificed for honesty, instead of the other way around.

[Fuchs]

It's rather more honest here than on DS - if you think the other guy is an idiot and his idea worthless you say so, you don't cover it up.

Ah. There has been a misunderstanding on my part. Silly me thought you can be honest AND polite. But if insulting people by being very "straightforward" qualifies for honesty (or "more honesty"), then the Den is the most honest forum of all. Signed.

There's not a misunderstanding on your part, simply a mistake. You were not saying DS was more honest and more polite than the Den. You were just stating DS was honest, the Den was not. Which, as I was pointing out, is not true. Saying what you think is more honest than not saying what you think. Politeness is another topic.

Please try to use the correct terms next time to convey what you mean.

[raben-aas]

There's not a misunderstanding on your part, simply a mistake. You were not saying DS was more honest and more polite than the Den. You were just stating DS was honest, the Den was not. Which, as I was pointing out, is not true. Saying what you think is more honest than not saying what you think. Politeness is another topic. Please try to use the correct terms next time to convey what you mean.

Oh, I do. But oftentimes I ask myself why I should go to all this trouble when some people choose to ignore what is written right before their eyes anyway?

To pick a random example (i.e. yours) I totally did NOT say the Den was dishonest. Go on. Read my post.

"I don't doubt that the Den is honest, mind you, I'm just saying that telling "the truth"(TM) in a circle where pretty much everyone has the same opinion hardly qualifies for a medal of honor."

And I stand by that very statement, at least in this thread and referring to this thread.

[Fuchs]

Critics and supporters alike can post here. Most supporters of the crooks and hacks at CGL however don't fare too well without moderators covering for them.

[Username17]

Critics and supporters alike can post here. Most supporters of the crooks and hacks at CGL however don't fare too well without moderators covering for them.

That is really the bottom line. Critias was certainly welcome to defend his work here. He even did that. We took off the hater cap long enough to give him real literary criticism of his work. He chose to run off like a bitch because he is untalented as a writer and could not handle real criticism in the absence of an enforced hug box.

The take home here is that we're actually way nicer here than they are on Dumpshock. Even after people have mortally offended us, we're still willing to go through their stuff and critique it honestly.

-Username17

[Otakusensei]

Important note to reiterate is that honest doesn't necessarily mean neutral.

Right now if CGL puts out a mediocre project they are going to get slammed for it. Because it isn't going to move the needle from the bad position they're already in. Whether it's fair or not doesn't matter, it's honest. If someone wants to strip away the context of the greater debate and give a critique of the work on it's own they're more forgiving than I am. I would just hope those involved would take it openly and honestly with an understanding of the reviewer's standards. Instead we've seen new writers sling mud on the reviewer and the community because it's much easier for them to tell themselves that it's all because of some other axe their grinding. It's easier to run back to a place where people are rewarded for liking you and saying nice things.

That isn't honest. The rep scores on the official forums have been pro-CGL since the onset. It makes sense that they would be, especially in an environment that encourages being nice over being fair or being honest. It creates a lot more conversation, but it doesn't create better conversation.

On that note I don't really go to DS anymore because it just seems sort of sad. A lot of folks who either don't know or don't care that their game is in dire straights. That's either from a lack of information or just plain old lying to yourself. I know all about that because I do that. We all do. There's an attitude that they've been there and heard it all before, but it just seems like there's nothing let to do but ride it all right down as far as it'll slide.

I even thought of donating out of respect for what it used to be. I decided to take my wife out to dinner instead.

[Critias]

That is really the bottom line. Critias was certainly welcome to defend his work here. He even did that. We took off the hater cap long enough to give him real literary criticism of his work. He chose to run off like a bitch because he is untalented as a writer and could not handle real criticism in
the absence of an enforced hug box.

Actually, I just didn't see much point in posting. I guess maybe "realizing nothing constructive can come of continued conversation" is the same as "running off like a bitch," but I wanted to clarify. I'm still here, I still read every now and then, but I realize that trying to chime in real often is likely to be about as productive and fun as punching myself in the dick.

And if I couldn't handle criticism, Frank, I wouldn't have asked for it. But -- here's a little secret that maybe you'll learn someday -- there's a difference between criticism and just flat-out insults. I welcome one, and just get tired of the other.

[Kaelik]

I totally did NOT say the Den was dishonest. Go on. Read my post.

"I don't doubt that the Den is honest, mind you, I'm just saying that telling "the truth"(TM) in a circle where pretty much everyone has the same opinion hardly qualifies for a medal of honor."

I totally did not say that you are an idiot read my post.

"I don't doubt that you are not an idiot, mind you, I'm just saying that you are not very smart at all.

In my eyes both you and Shadazar are complete fucking retards.

I am the only non idiot in the universe."

See, when you claim Dumpshock is the only honest place, that actually does mean you are claiming that the Den is dishonest.

[Ancient History]

Honest criticism opens up the door for insults. You put something of yourself into a work, and you put that work out there for others to judge. If they insult the work, they insult you...and yeah, some people skip the middle man and just insult you. That happens. That is supposed to happen. Because it works the exact same way when people read something very good. If they praise the work, some of that shines on the author, and sometimes they just praise the author directly. That is fair, that is cool, and when it happens it is awesome. But you have to take the lumps with it.

[Starmaker]

"I don't doubt that the Den is honest, mind you, I'm just saying that telling "the truth"(TM) in a circle where pretty much everyone has the same opinion hardly qualifies for a medal of honor."

And I stand by that very statement, at least in this thread and referring to this thread.

To "qualify for a medal of honor" (that is to qualify as commendable), an action must be effective and selfless pro-social - have a direct positive result, or fail to have a direct positive result but inspire others.

So, if you speak against the corrupt government in a national newspaper, that is commendable because it has an effect of a great number of people reading the article. If you try to speak against the corrupt government in a national newspaper and get shot in the process, if the government becomes less corrupt it makes sense to reward your effort with a posthumous medal to encourage people to speak up.

Now what is accomplished by raiding a hugbox forum over and over again? Unlike North Korea, people are actually able to leave Dumpshock. Posting things where interested people are more likely to see them over a longer period of time makes more sense.

While posting reviews of RPGs and reports of embezzlement in an RPG company is possibly less heroic than going to Ghana and providing medical aid to the sick and the wounded, it is by no means useless.

[Critias]

But you have to take the lumps with it.

If I didn't care about criticism, I wouldn't have come here in the first place, man. I would never have told anyone my real name, what chapters of books I've written, and I wouldn't be incorporating some of that criticism into my own unofficial errata etc, etc.

But enough folks told me -- right here in this thread, in PMs here, or in PMs elsewhere -- that hanging out here was a mistake, so I took their advice and just didn't bother posting responses for a while. Since it took several months and a couple dozen pages before anyone seemed to notice, I was a little surprised at Frank's nigh-random mentioning of it, so I thought I'd hop back on for a couple minutes on my lunch break. I'm not going to pretend to ever be a member of this community, or whatever, so I didn't realize I was expected to post all that often, I guess.

[raben-aas]

See, when you claim Dumpshock is the only honest place, that actually does mean you are claiming that the Den is dishonest.

I keep on being amazed what you make of my words.

I didn't say DS was the only honest place.

What I did say was:

"That Dumpshock is actually the only real and honest battleground for supporters and critics alike." (emphasis mine)

My whole point was that if for the most part SR cheerleaders are patting the back of SR cheerleaders in the official forums, then for the most part SR critics are patting the back of SR critics here in the Den, and since DS seems to be the main place where cheerleaders AND critics go, then DS seems to be the place where an exchange of differing thoughts happens.

It's not about the qualitirs of either of the three.

It's about real "Battles" (where you can earn a medal of honor, which I also mention) happening when the positions of A and B collide.

A can echo A and B can echo B for all eternity, and since more and more people seem to be willing to retreat into their respective echo chamber, well, then that will settle all disputes by removing them.

And that's kinda sad.

*shrug*

[Guyr Adamantine]

"That Dumpshock is actually the only real and honest battleground for supporters and critics alike." (emphasis mine)

My whole point was that if for the most part SR cheerleaders are patting the back of SR cheerleaders in the official forums, then for the most part SR critics are patting the back of SR critics here in the Den, and since DS seems to be the main place where cheerleaders AND critics go, then DS seems to be the place where an exchange of differing thoughts happens.

Cheerleaders don't actually contribute to a debate, they fucking cheer.

Are you really thinking the oppressive attitude of the mod and employees gives off an atmosphere conductive to actual criticism? THAT'S what's sad.

EDIT: If I may add, if people actually agree on this thread, its not circlejerking. The facts ARE overwhelming, and playing ostrich only makes people look stupid. If anything, forumites convincing each other everything is alright qualifies as doing so. (Circlejerking, that is)

[Otakusensei]

But you have to take the lumps with it.

If I didn't care about criticism, I wouldn't have come here in the first place, man. I would never have told anyone my real name, what chapters of books I've written, and I wouldn't be incorporating some of that criticism into my own unofficial errata etc, etc.

But enough folks told me -- right here in this thread, in PMs here, or in PMs elsewhere -- that hanging out here was a mistake, so I took their advice and just didn't bother posting responses for a while. Since it took several months and a couple dozen pages before anyone seemed to notice, I was a little surprised at Frank's nigh-random mentioning of it, so I thought I'd hop back on for a couple minutes on my lunch break. I'm not going to pretend to ever be a member of this community, or whatever, so I didn't realize I was expected to post all that often, I guess.

The official forums are warm and safe and everyone there respects you based purely off the fact that people who own a license to develop for the game like you. The tough love has gloves and no one is going to accuse you of feeding your ego on the corpse of a game that people loved and cared about. At least, they won't do it in a way that you can't brand them a hater and disregard their words as the ranting of someone who doesn't understand what's really going on.

I don't agree with you, but I actually have a lot of respect for you for paying attention to forums outside the official forum and DS. It says something about you. Either that you're aware the discussion can be one sided and are curious about how the other half lives. Or that you're some kind of social masochist.

I really hope it's the first one.

[Critias]

I don't brand people haters on DS or the SR forums, or at least if I have I didn't mean to.

What I do is try to get people to tone down the vitriol a little bit so that others can't brand them haters, and in doing so dismiss them. There's an awful lot of legitimate complaints that get lost in the shrieking and personal insults, whether some folks are willing to realize that's happening or not; the more something is a rant, the less it looks like a reasonable complaint. Ranting makes it easy for folks to get outright ignored, by those who are of a mind to ignore them. Complaining has the potential to get listened to and taken seriously.

I like conversations and debates. I don't like it when those debates immediately get personal, because (a) it makes someone an asshole, and (b) it makes that asshole easy to ignore, ruining their point.

Quick Edit: And as far as being curious about how the other half lives? It's not like I'm some golden boy that's always been beloved by moderators and administrators everywhere. I'm an old-school Shadowlander, not an old-school Dumpshocker. I know all about being the angry guys on the fringe of an on-line community. I just kind of grew out of it, is all. It's exhausting being that angry and bitter about a game of dice and make-believe.

[TheFlatline]

Honest criticism opens up the door for insults. You put something of yourself into a work, and you put that work out there for others to judge. If they insult the work, they insult you...and yeah, some people skip the middle man and just insult you. That happens. That is supposed to happen. Because it works the exact same way when people read something very good. If they praise the work, some of that shines on the author, and sometimes they just praise the author directly. That is fair, that is cool, and when it happens it is awesome. But you have to take the lumps with it.

It was put to me: "If you don't have a bit of masochistic exhibitionism streak, don't publish your writing."

And that's probably the biggest truth I've ever been told about writing. Ever. You have to like to display bits of you (that you put into your work), you have to be willing to take a beating on your writing, and you have to be willing for that beating to be very public.

Personally, I just don't like where Shadowrun has gone. Pure and simple.

[raben-aas]

FYI, some good advice on how to phrase discussions on the i-nets. I can take some level of personal attacks, but often I see good arguments and very valid cases ruining it for themselves by an unnecessary attempt at being funny at the cost of another.

http://measureofdoubt.com/2011/05/26/ho ... -internet/

[TheFlatline]

FYI, some good advice on how to phrase discussions on the i-nets. I can take some level of personal attacks, but often I see good arguments and very valid cases ruining it for themselves by an unnecessary attempt at being funny at the cost of another.

http://measureofdoubt.com/2011/05/26/ho ... -internet/

Oh please for the love of all that is holy take your argument and that link to /b/ and post the screencaps... assuming your monitor hasn't melted down.

PS: Half the purpose of the Den is that you *can* call someone a penis wrinkle and the conversation continues on. You're apparently the odd man out who gets stuck on the insults.